spider x spider

[Caz]

I wonder if it's a similar gene to the Jag gene in carpets..
Both are said to have head 'wobble' or twisting issues in some snakes, 'Super' jags (leucistics) either die in the egg or shortly after hatching.

Has anyone here seen a 'super' spider dead in the egg? Was it leucistic?

[rabernet]

The search for a homozygous spider is ongoing. NERD tried, and failed, to produce one.

Since a homozygous spider hasn't been produced, and the morph is quite old now (and it's been tried many times), it's a pretty safe conclusion that one will NOT be produced. No one has mentioned any tendency of spiders from spiderXspider clutches dying young, so it can be safely assumed that homozygous spiders die in the egg. Since so many eggs are lost for various reasons, it doesn't stand out, so wasn't noticed immediately.

Conclusion--the lack of super-spiders means that spiders are probably co-dominant, and homozygous lethal. This means that in a spider X spider pairing, 25% of fertile eggs will not hatch. It doesn't seem worth it.

On the other hand, I understand that super Pinstripes HAVE been produced. This verifies that Pinstripe is dominant, and not co-dominant.

But hey, if you want to try and do the spider X spider crosses again, go right ahead. It's a huge project, and it will probably be fruitless, because it's been done before.

How can it be safely assumed that homozygous spiders die in the egg? Why can't it be safely assumed that there just isn't a homozygous spider? Why is the conclusion that they die in the egg? Why isn't the conclusion that they just don't exist and that there aren't any that die in eggs?

[WingedWolfPsion]

Ok, refresher on what the terms mean:

Dominant: Heterozygous and Homozygous animals look/are morphologically identical.

Co-Dominant: Heterozygous animals do not look normal. Homozygous animals look different from Heterozygous animals.

What exactly do you think happens to the super-spiders? Genetics dictates that some animals will carry both genes. So where are they? If we don't have them, then they MUST be dead. This is logic. "They don't exist" is not genetically possible. They don't mysteriously vanish before eggs are laid, that isn't the way things happen inside a snake.

Why are Spiders therefore co-dominant? Because the super form is not the same as the heterozygous form. If it were, then we would have super-spiders that look just like spiders. But we don't. So, the super-spiders express differently--they don't hatch. What they look like is irrelevent, we know they ARE different.

[Egapal]

Are you kidding? I can't recall any Caramel thread where kinking or so called infertile females comes up (the later being completely false).

Truth of the matter is no one who has posted here has shown conclusive evidence to support either of the claims that #1. They don't exist and #2. It's a lethal gene. Everything that's been posted has been hear-say, and I'm tired of seeing people spread it like it's the law.

When Kevin McCurley, Brian Barcyzk, or someone with comprehensive evidence can formally say that Homozygous Spiders are a "Lethal Gene" then it will be the truth, until then or when someone proves a Homozygous Spider, Spiders will remain under the "Dominate" genetics category.

Not kidding. There are tons and tons of Caramel kinking threads. Do a search for Caramel kinking on this forum and you will find a bunch.

There can be no conclusive testing short of DNA testing all eggs after fertilization from multiple spider to spider crosses. In the mean time consider this. NERD had tried and failed to create a super spider. There is no evidence that they die after hatching. There are many examples of gene combinations being lethal in many species at various stages of development. All of this leads the community to believe that a super spider is lethal. Its an educated conclusion that has yet to be proved or disproved. It fits the evidence so I would call it a solid hypothesis

[Caz]

I wonder if it's a similar gene to the Jag gene in carpets..
Both are said to have head 'wobble' or twisting issues in some snakes, 'Super' jags (leucistics) either die in the egg or shortly after hatching.

Has anyone here seen a 'super' spider dead in the egg? Was it leucistic?

Anyone?

[ladywhipple02]

Ok, refresher on what the terms mean:

Dominant: Heterozygous and Homozygous animals look/are morphologically identical.

Co-Dominant: Heterozygous animals do not look normal. Homozygous animals look different from Heterozygous animals.



Why are Spiders therefore co-dominant? Because the super form is not the same as the heterozygous form. If it were, then we would have super-spiders that look just like spiders. But we don't. So, the super-spiders express differently--they don't hatch. What they look like is irrelevent, we know they ARE different.

But we don't KNOW that the super spider even exists. No one has ever seen one that I'm aware of (answer to your question Caz). From what I've read and seen, any babies that were born (or died) looked just like normal Spiders. So, I repeat what Robin said: what if "Super Spiders" simply do not exist? That would make the Spider trait Dominant, not Co-dominant.

Have you ever seen a super spider?

[Egapal]

But we don't KNOW that the super spider even exists. No one has ever seen one that I'm aware of (answer to your question Caz). From what I've read and seen, any babies that were born (or died) looked just like normal Spiders. So, I repeat what Robin said: what if "Super Spiders" simply do not exist? That would make the Spider trait Dominant, not Co-dominant.

Have you ever seen a super spider?

You are missing the point. What makes a super a super is not necessarily how it looks. Its when having two genes is expressed differently than having one. If a het and homozygous looked the same but the homozyguous could breath fire then it would be a super and therefor the trait would be co-dominant. The point is that dieing is what makes them different and therefore its a co-dominant morph.

Homozygous spiders would make up 25% of all spider to spider crosses. The fact that we don't see them means that its most likely lethal. You can't just say they don't exist. The genetics makes them relatively easy to make. The fact that they are not here is the proof.

Thats like saying that the Amazon women of legend didn't have male children.

[JayCee]

My guess is that someday, with the right combo, a homozygous spider will be created. There might be something in another morph that will counteract the lethality of a homozygous spider.

That being said, it is a substantial risk to take. If you have a bunch of Spider females, are you going to risk wasting 1/4 of your offspring by breeding them to a male containing the spider gene ??

[AaronP]

Homozygous spiders would make up 25% of all spider to spider crosses. The fact that we don't see them means that its most likely lethal. You can't just say they don't exist. The genetics makes them relatively easy to make. The fact that they are not here is the proof.

Thats like saying that the Amazon women of legend didn't have male children.

See the problem is we're Assuming, with no real proof. Chances are there are Homozygous spiders but they were sold as regular spiders and they either are in the hands of people who don't intend to breed them, have had relatively small clutches so the person thinks they're doing good on the odds, or are keeping their mouths shut because they don't want anyone else to know.

And if you don't think that's the case, then why would you assume they just die?

That said I don't think it's impossible. But seeing as how the only other proven lethal gene is the Homozygous Woma, and it acts completely different, I just find it hard to believe the hear say.

[JayCee]

See the problem is we're Assuming, with no real proof.

Just because you don't have the actual proof in front of you doesn't mean it isn't true.

Let's say you are an established breeder that was in early on the Spider. You breed your first male spider to a ton of normals and produce a bunch of spiders. You keep most of your females. As soon as they are ready, you breed them back to your original male spider.

The vast majority of those spiders produced from the Spider X Spider breeding will have been bred again in various projects. If there were a homozygous spider (odds say 25% of the Spider X Spider would have been homozygous) out there, it would have been found out some time ago. Not to hard to figure out that every clutch produced all had the spider gene.