Price drops

[nixer]

I raise and hand feed my baby ball pythons. Plus, with over 20 breeders, I only got two clutches this year. Plus, how many spiders are imported each year? Less than there are parrots. Plus, there are hundreds of times more people buying multiple ball python morphs than there are buying parrots. Plus, people who buy ball pythons will typically buy several to dozens to hundreds of ball pythons, where people who by parrots, might by 2-3, with a majority probably only having a single parrot.

What about the other reptiles that hold their value? What about the bottoming out prices on ball morphs typically being lower than cost?

dude birds need to be hand fed every 2 hours!
and those ppl buying hundreds are breeding them and selling them.
most ppl do not breed birds and those that do have way more than ball pythons. also its alot cheaper to feed and house a bp compared to a bird that wastes most of its food anyway.
oh yea and not to mention that some birds only have 2-4 eggs that might hatch

[PythonWallace]

sure but you missed the point. say you produced 20 spiders this year and none sold. it takes money to feed them all. and when it comes to your family and everything else you should be picking your family and thats what the op did.

If you produced 20 spiders this year, you aso produced 20 normals from the spider clutches alone. If you know that the economy sucks and don't think you can care for, or sell at market prices, 40 normals and spiders, why the hell are you producing so many snakes when your family's well being and finances might suffer? We didn't go into a recession over night, and surely your sales last year were a good indication of what things would be like this season. That's where I would think that greed comes into play.

Edit: If you have so many snakes you can't sell at market prices, you should be selling them to a wholesaler, if anything. Not advertising them for individual sale in public at wholesale prices, in turn, contributing to lower market prices for everyone who is willing to do the work.

[nixer]

If you produced 20 spiders this year, you aso produced 20 normals from the spider clutches alone.
If you know that the economy sucks and don't think you can care for, or sell at market prices, 40 normals and spiders, why the hell are you producing so many snakes when your family's well being and finances might suffer? We didn't go into a recession over night, and surely your sales last year were a good indication of what things would be like this season. That's where I would think that greed comes into play.

lol dude just when did it take a crap?
in many many places it did happen overnight. especially in the construction industry because alot banks pulled the loans.
also last year it was fine for most of the year.
have you ever heard the saying "Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Results"
also note that most ppl that lost their jobs well into breeding season and also that the gdp didnt drop till what feb or something like that.
not to mention that i would venture off as much to say that most of the ppl that did loose their jobs where there less than 5 years some of them even 10 years and that would include alot of the ppl from that nice 1999/200 hiccup
and alot of ppl who are younger early 30's and less. so just how many ppl do you think are the ones in this hobby

Edit: If you have so many snakes you can't sell at market prices, you should be selling them to a wholesaler, if anything. Not advertising them for individual sale in public at wholesale prices, in turn, contributing to lower market prices for everyone who is willing to do the work.

i agree but some wholesalers are not going to even pay the price he was charging

[Adam_Wysocki]

I've been producing and selling ball python mutations since 1997 ... Here are some of my thoughts on prices after doing this for 12 years.

Prices go down every year ... sometimes a little, sometimes a lot ... in the past I used to get really pissed ... now I accept that I have absolutely no control over it and I plan for as much as a 50%-60% drop each year on some mutations and adjust my business plan accordingly.

When I've priced my animals above market value I've been flamed and accused of ripping people off.

When I've priced my animals at market value I've been told that I'm being unfair to my customers and smaller scale breeders by competing with them directly and that I'm forcing them to drop their prices so that they can sell their animals and compete with me.

When I've priced my animals below market value I've been called a market crasher, scumbag, and price dropper.

After twelve years of doing this I've realized one thing ... no matter what you do, someone will be pissed off. I think some of it is jealousy, some of it is greed, and some of it is just that the internet seems to be a magnet for angry jerks.

I've put more money into this market than most people spend on their homes ... I got into lessers when the price was $40K, spiders at $10K, stripes and pins at $20K each and on and on and on. Shoot, I paid $5,000 for a het albino male 14 years ago.

I've made every single dime of that back and then some, even with people dumping prices on all of those projects year in and year out. I've done that because I had a sound business plan, a good marketing strategy, and I worked my a$$ off.

Something I like to tell people all the time is: "If the success or failure of your business revolves around how other people are pricing their animals, you've lost before you even started".

Love what you do, do it to the best of your ability, treat your customers well, and price your animals for what you feel is fair and reasonable ... and if anyone gives you poop for it ignore them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

[PythonWallace]

lol dude just when did it take a crap?
in many many places it did happen overnight. especially in the construction industry because alot banks pulled the loans.
also last year it was fine for most of the year.
have you ever heard the saying "Past Performance is No Guarantee of Future Results"
also note that most ppl that lost their jobs well into breeding season and also that the gdp didnt drop till what feb or something like that.
not to mention that i would venture off as much to say that most of the ppl that did loose their jobs where there less than 5 years some of them even 10 years and that would include alot of the ppl from that nice 1999/200 hiccup
and alot of ppl who are younger early 30's and less. so just how many ppl do you think are the ones in this hobby

That's not true. We've known for well over two years that we were headed into a recession that would only get worse and worse, with no signs of turning around anytime in the foreseeable future. Along with this, we know that some of the first things to go for most people are luxury items and extras, like reptiles. Plan accordingly.


i agree but some wholesalers are not going to even pay the price he was charging

Yeah, but if you are willing to do $130, what's another $30 to save face and look out for the hobby. But I was just talking in general, not about any individual. Just saying, if you are advertising morphs for practically wholesale prices, just bite the bullet and whole sale them.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter to decide what HIS prices "should" be? It's appalling that there are so many people that think it is okay to dictate to others how to run THIER business, or how to price THIER ball pythons. What country do we live in again??

To be honest, such statements REEK of greed IMO.

Some of the people in this conversation have been around for a LONG time. Some of the people in this conversation have spent a ridiculous amount of time and money on the first morphs acquiring, raising, and breeding them. Why did they do it? To make a couple bucks and to make it possible for others like you to be able to own such wonderful animals.

Now that they have spent all this money, and done all this work, people are acquiring the same animals for already low prices. Those people with $$$ in their eyes immediately try to breed the animals as quickly as possible usually with total disregard for the quality of their morph breeder, let alone the quality of the animal they choose to breed it with.

Then when their clutch or two hatches, they realize how difficult it can be to raise hatchlings, and how unprepared and more importantly UNWILLING they are to do what it takes to maintain the hatchlings until they have the opportunity to sell them at a fair market price. You can guess what they do next.

They sell the babies at ridiculously low prices just to get rid of their headache ASAP. People see this advertised price, and also sees several other similar people doing the same thing, and the damage is done. The average prices drop screwing EVERYONE except the buyer... especially the original people who made these snakes possible for us in the first place.

Who are YOU to say people don't have a right to upset with those that cause these unnecessary price drops? Your saying that just demonstrates how you obviously do not understand the history of the problem.



On another related point... In my opinion it is the bottom dwellers who reek of greed. They are the people that don't want to put any work or money into owning the best animals. They would rather let everyone else spend all the money and time acquiring, raising, and breeding multiple generations. Then they like to jump in on these arguments defending the guy who is burning thru snakes, permanently damaging the market because they are almost willing to spend the amount the guy in question is selling for... Hoping to drive the market even lower.

The really crappy part is these same people who were not willing to put any of the work or money into getting their animals are usually the same people who gets in way over their heads and dump all of their animals.

[nixer]

That's not true. We've known for well over two years that we were headed into a recession that would only get worse and worse, with no signs of turning around anytime in the foreseeable future. Along with this, we know that some of the first things to go for most people are luxury items and extras, like reptiles. Plan accordingly.



Yeah, but if you are willing to do $130, what's another $30 to save face and look out for the hobby. But I was just talking in general, not about any individual. Just saying, if you are advertising morphs for practically wholesale prices, just bite the bullet and whole sale them.

as for the first ill tell you this i was in a contract job that was a 2 year project and they pulled the funding just like that and the next day we were out. not to mention we had over 5 years worth of projects on the books, which were pushed back and are still being pushed back.
you should of seen that first hand in chicago because one week the tower cranes were running and a week later they were taking them down and this happened on many jobs throughout the construction industry.


as for the 30$. one might argue that why should he knock an extra 30$ off his animals. when you start a real business 30$ can make a big difference when it comes tax time especially when after those first years you can claim a loss or not and when you have to incorporate it

[Jared]

I've been producing and selling ball python mutations since 1997 ... Here are some of my thoughts on prices after doing this for 12 years.

Prices go down every year ... sometimes a little, sometimes a lot ... in the past I used to get really pissed ... now I accept that I have absolutely no control over it and I plan for as much as a 50%-60% drop each year on some mutations and adjust my business plan accordingly.

When I've priced my animals above market value I've been flamed and accused of ripping people off.

When I've priced my animals at market value I've been told that I'm being unfair to my customers and smaller scale breeders by competing with them directly and that I'm forcing them to drop their prices so that they can sell their animals and compete with me.

When I've priced my animals below market value I've been called a market crasher, scumbag, and price dropper.

After twelve years of doing this I've realized one thing ... no matter what you do, someone will be pissed off. I think some of it is jealousy, some of it is greed, and some of it is just that the internet seems to be a magnet for angry jerks.

I've put more money into this market than most people spend on their homes ... I got into lessers when the price was $40K, spiders at $10K, stripes and pins at $20K each and on and on and on. Shoot, I paid $5,000 for a het albino male 14 years ago.

I've made every single dime of that back and then some, even with people dumping prices on all of those projects year in and year out. I've done that because I had a sound business plan, a good marketing strategy, and I worked my a$$ off.

Something I like to tell people all the time is: "If the success or failure of your business revolves around how other people are pricing their animals, you've lost before you even started".

Love what you do, do it to the best of your ability, treat your customers well, and price your animals for what you feel is fair and reasonable ... and if anyone gives you poop for it ignore them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Well said!! Perfect! Great job!
(Emphasis added by me)

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I've been producing and selling ball python mutations since 1997 ... Here are some of my thoughts on prices after doing this for 12 years.

Prices go down every year ... sometimes a little, sometimes a lot ... in the past I used to get really pissed ... now I accept that I have absolutely no control over it and I plan for as much as a 50%-60% drop each year on some mutations and adjust my business plan accordingly.

When I've priced my animals above market value I've been flamed and accused of ripping people off.

When I've priced my animals at market value I've been told that I'm being unfair to my customers and smaller scale breeders by competing with them directly and that I'm forcing them to drop their prices so that they can sell their animals and compete with me.

When I've priced my animals below market value I've been called a market crasher, scumbag, and price dropper.

After twelve years of doing this I've realized one thing ... no matter what you do, someone will be pissed off. I think some of it is jealousy, some of it is greed, and some of it is just that the internet seems to be a magnet for angry jerks.

I've put more money into this market than most people spend on their homes ... I got into lessers when the price was $40K, spiders at $10K, stripes and pins at $20K each and on and on and on. Shoot, I paid $5,000 for a het albino male 14 years ago.

I've made every single dime of that back and then some, even with people dumping prices on all of those projects year in and year out. I've done that because I had a sound business plan, a good marketing strategy, and I worked my a$$ off.

Something I like to tell people all the time is: "If the success or failure of your business revolves around how other people are pricing their animals, you've lost before you even started".

Love what you do, do it to the best of your ability, treat your customers well, and price your animals for what you feel is fair and reasonable ... and if anyone gives you poop for it ignore them.

Hope this helps.

-adam

I agree with everything you said here Adam.

This conversation as I see it though isn't about the normal dropping of prices that happens each year. It is more specifically about the people selling even way below the level of that normal, generally across the board, drop. Sure their has always been some people that do this, but lately there are a BUNCH of people doing it.

In other words, say spiders were $5,000 last year. Because of the economy and everything else, the average spice of a spider this year has dropped down to $4,000.

The $1000 drop is to be expected. It sucks, but just about everyone at this point in the game expects it to happen to a certain extent.

This thread though is more specifically about the people that see spiders have dropped to $4,000 this year and in order to dump their animals ASAP price them at $2,500.

Then someone else that sees the $2,500 add, who also wants to dump their animals obviously isn't going to price higher then the $2,500. So they match it or even go lower.

This vicious cycle that plays out every single day on queensnake.com is what is destroying this market and people are rightfully pissed off about it.

[Adam_Wysocki]

Mike,

I appreciate what you're saying, but trust me ... it's not happening with any greater frequency or percentage drop than it has happened in the past.

I've been doing this a long time and this business is my life ... with prices, it's the same poop as always, just a different year.

-adam