Put it down already

[Eventide]

I'm going to guess that your friend gave you these as well.

Do you favor parrots, by chance?

Um, actually, no. I did a little thing that I like to call research. Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?

Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.

Premise 1: The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.

Premise 2: "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."

Premise 3: Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.

Conclusion: Freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is against the law.

Ta da.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Again--if there is a question about whether or not a method of euthanasia is painless, don't use it. The entire point is to put the animal out of its misery, not to create more of it.

I won't even dignify the idea that a larger breeder can't afford to have a vet euthanize deformed hatchlings. If they can't afford that, can they also not afford vet care for their normal females? I've heard of this, too. They shouldn't be in business at all if their priorities lie in that direction. If they can't afford to care for all of their animals properly, their animals should be legally seized. That is the way it works when people keep animals but refuse proper care for them.

But the bottom line is that the animals shouldn't be suffering. If you have to euthanize them yourself, then have the decency to hit them over the head with a rubber mallet. Don't freeze them.
At least the rubber mallet definitely isn't cruel, provided you use a proper amount of force. Either method is legally questionable, so you might as well use the painless method. If you don't have the cajones to do that, then take them to the vet.

[HeartAche]

Um, actually, no. I did a little thing that I like to call research. Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?

Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.

Premise 1: The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.

Premise 2: "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."

Premise 3: Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.

Conclusion: Freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is against the law.

Ta da.

You do realize that there are no laws against cruelty to reptiles right? Not supporting euthanasia by freezing but I just wanted to make sure you are aware of that

[wilomn]

Um, actually, no. I did a little thing that I like to call research. Have you actually read any of the many citations I've posted in this thread, or do you prefer to remain in ignorance so you can insult those who disagree with you?

Also, as to the against the law thing, I will put it in Philosophy 101 terms for you.

Premise 1: The AMVA says that freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is inhumane.

Premise 2: "Inhumane" is another way of saying "cruel."

Premise 3: Animal cruelty is against the law and punishable by the law.

Conclusion: Freezing reptiles as a form of euthanasia is against the law.

Ta da.

So, you lie AND use faulty logic.

Where Is that ignore button.....

[WingedWolfPsion]

I'm afraid you're wrong. Existing animal cruelty laws DO cover reptiles (at least in some places), and people have been arrested on animal cruelty charges for cruelty to reptiles on a number of occasions in the US.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-...animal-cruelty

[HeartAche]

I'm afraid you're wrong. Existing animal cruelty laws DO cover reptiles (at least in some places), and people have been arrested on animal cruelty charges for cruelty to reptiles on a number of occasions in the US.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-...animal-cruelty

Alright I see that but Im looking for the actual written law for it and I'm not finding anything. I saw stuff for mammals and other warm-blooded animals but I saw no mention of reptiles.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

So far, I believe, this is the first mention of intracardial injection.

As such, either a further clarification by previous experts, er rumor mongers, is necessary, or this thread is just going to spiral on and on, with no one actually knowing what anyone else is talking about.

I have assumed that we have been discussing injection of lethal drugs into a vein or artery, not directly into the heart. For that I am unaware of any anesthesia prior to injecting in reptiles. I am not considering anything but reptiles in this thread.

I will admit that I haven't seen many euthanasias in reptiles, so I'm going by what's written in Mader et. al, which is considered by many herp vets to be the definitive reference on reptile medicine.

I honestly don't think it is terribly common. Usually the patients are either going to get better, or we can't keep them alive and euthanasia will be unnecessary. I know that a gecko had to be euthanized last week at the clinic because its stitches kept coming out after surgery. I'll have to ask the tech what method was used the next time I see him.

According to Mader et. al., intracardiac injection can be used for euthanasia in reptiles. So can intracranial. So can pithing. So can decapitation. In all of these methods, anaesthesia should be induced prior to euthanasia.

It may be possible to do intracardiac injection on a very very weak, basically unconscious, patient. However, intracardiac is going to be difficult on a patient in this state as the heart may be difficult to find. If the animal is active and alert, the vet is probably going to administer anaesthesia beforehand to render it unconscious.

It is possible to do IV injection of euthanasia solution, yes, and IM is possible, too, but these are going to be VERY slow deaths and probably not the method of choice.

What you do is going to vary from patient to patient. As was already mentioned by the patient with the poor, epileptic dog, euthanasia is not always quiet, painless and gentle even if you make every effort to make it that way. The goal is just to put the animal out of its misery as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I'd like to see the research that was done to conclude that freezing small reptiles is inevitably painful. Reptiles and amphibians DO feel pain, that's certain, but it seems that they may register some types of pain differently than birds and mammals. This is suggested by the fact that reptiles will sometimes incur massive burns sitting on heat mats or other heating elements without moving away from the source of the burn. I wonder if freezing SMALL babies that will be solid and dead fairly quickly is really all that inhumane. I'm not saying that it ISN'T, but I'm not totally convinced that it is. Especially when you figure that ANY method of euthanasia has the potential to be drawn-out and uncomfortable for the animal.

Also, FYI, the AVMA is not the end-all be-all of the veterinary world (even though they like to think they are). The AVMA is an industry auto-regulatory body that sets guidelines for veterinary practice. Most veterinarians are members of the AVMA, but enrollment is not mandatory.

The AVMA also does not support feline declawing or canine tail docking or ear cropping, either, but these are both done on a regular basis and are not illegal in most jurisdictions.

AFAIK animal cruelty laws vary on a state-by-state basis.

[HeartAche]

I will admit that I haven't seen many euthanasias in reptiles, so I'm going by what's written in Mader et. al, which is considered by many herp vets to be the definitive reference on reptile medicine.

I honestly don't think it is terribly common. Usually the patients are either going to get better, or we can't keep them alive and euthanasia will be unnecessary. I know that a gecko had to be euthanized last week at the clinic because its stitches kept coming out after surgery. I'll have to ask the tech what method was used the next time I see him.

According to Mader et. al., intracardiac injection can be used for euthanasia in reptiles. So can intracranial. So can pithing. So can decapitation. In all of these methods, anaesthesia should be induced prior to euthanasia.

It may be possible to do intracardiac injection on a very very weak, basically unconscious, patient. However, intracardiac is going to be difficult on a patient in this state as the heart may be difficult to find. If the animal is active and alert, the vet is probably going to administer anaesthesia beforehand to render it unconscious.

It is possible to do IV injection of euthanasia solution, yes, and IM is possible, too, but these are going to be VERY slow deaths and probably not the method of choice.

What you do is going to vary from patient to patient. As was already mentioned by the patient with the poor, epileptic dog, euthanasia is not always quiet, painless and gentle even if you make every effort to make it that way. The goal is just to put the animal out of its misery as quickly and painlessly as possible.

I'd like to see the research that was done to conclude that freezing small reptiles is inevitably painful. Reptiles and amphibians DO feel pain, that's certain, but it seems that they may register some types of pain differently than birds and mammals. This is suggested by the fact that reptiles will sometimes incur massive burns sitting on heat mats or other heating elements without moving away from the source of the burn. I wonder if freezing SMALL babies that will be solid and dead fairly quickly is really all that inhumane. I'm not saying that it ISN'T, but I'm not totally convinced that it is. Especially when you figure that ANY method of euthanasia has the potential to be drawn-out and uncomfortable for the animal.

Also, FYI, the AVMA is not the end-all be-all of the veterinary world (even though they like to think they are). The AVMA is an industry auto-regulatory body that sets guidelines for veterinary practice. Most veterinarians are members of the AVMA, but enrollment is not mandatory.

The AVMA also does not support feline declawing or canine tail docking or ear cropping, either, but these are both done on a regular basis and are not illegal in most jurisdictions.

AFAIK animal cruelty laws vary on a state-by-state basis.

Ahhh I seee. I had been looking at the Animal Welfare Act so no wonder I couldn't find it. Sorry to hijack the thread

[Serpent_Nirvana]

The only other thing I'd like to add re: taking culls to a vet to be euthanized versus somehow trying to humanely do it yourself is that some vets may not be willing to euthanize an animal that is deformed, but otherwise healthy. It depends on the vet.

[Eventide]

The only other thing I'd like to add re: taking culls to a vet to be euthanized versus somehow trying to humanely do it yourself is that some vets may not be willing to euthanize an animal that is deformed, but otherwise healthy. It depends on the vet.

Very good point. My vet wouldn't do that, per se, but I know he won't put down a reptile just because the owners don't want it anymore (and it doesn't have a life-threatening condition). I wouldn't doubt that some would do what you say.

As for the AMVA, I never said they were the be-all and end-all of the whole freezing debate. That is why I posted multiple citations, including some scientific papers on the subject.

As for the animal cruelty laws, it does indeed vary state by state. I went looking for summaries of cruelty laws 'cause I wouldn't doubt that some don't count reptiles (grr). Arizona (my state) specifically says "any animal under the person's custody or control." Looks like some other states do too, but sadly, some don't. Makes me sad.