possible way to prove if butter and lesser are same or different morph?

[Bill Buchman]

I defer to Randy and Gene Pirate with regards to genetics proper -- as always.

I see the difference in the 2 morphs in combos. The Lithium(Butter x Cinny) and the Butter Belly(Butter x Yellow Belly) AND the Lesser Cinny and Lesser Yellow Belly appear significantly different in both color and pattern.

I believe them to be similar but different morphs.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

Anyone read the sciencenews.org article a while back about the short legged dog breeds? Suppose any of the ball python mutations could be extra copies of genes? Maybe one extra copy makes a phantom, two a mojave, and three a lesser, lol.

I searched the site but couldn't find it -- I'd love to read that article; do you have a link? Thanks!

I'm still thinking about the tight linkage theory ...

[RandyRemington]

I had to use google rather than the site search but I found it:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...hort_new_trick

[GenePirate]

I had to use google rather than the site search but I found it:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...hort_new_trick

Thanks, Randy! Nice find. This certainly does add another dimension of thought to the lesser-butter problem. And I want to give major props to everyone who is contributing to this thread. In science it's never one person, but always a collaboration of like minds bouncing ideas off one another and validating each other that eventually arrives at the conclusion.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

Thanks Randy!

I'm trying to imagine how that would work on a biochemical/molecular level ... Man, it's tough! We know so little about all of this -- I mean, man, dachshounds have been around for centuries now, and we're just now figuring out why their legs are the way they are ... O.o

[Hyper Joe]

I have produced lessers and seen many lessers and butters.
In my lesser clutches I produced some lessers that are so much like butters but they are not. All in the same clutch. See pic.

Judging by phenotype to me they are one in all.
The mojave is definitely different but lessers and butters...
For the life of me, I don't see the difference.

[TheReptileEnthusiast]

I believe Lessers and Butters are the same gene, RDR has even produced a Platinum(a butter daddy similar to the original platty daddy) from a Butter x hidden gene carrier(original lesser sib). It seems clear they are just different lines of the same gene much like the different lines of pastels.

Mojaves appear to have the same gene that causes leucism in the super form and white sides in one gene carriers. I think they just have other genes influencing pattern. I bet if you bred mojaves repeatedly to reduced pattern light colored normals, you could make something that looks like a lesser/butter. We've already seen pics posted here of light colored mojaves that have been confused with lessers.

[OhhWatALoser]

I defer to Randy and Gene Pirate with regards to genetics proper -- as always.

I see the difference in the 2 morphs in combos. The Lithium(Butter x Cinny) and the Butter Belly(Butter x Yellow Belly) AND the Lesser Cinny and Lesser Yellow Belly appear significantly different in both color and pattern.

I believe them to be similar but different morphs.

yea but theres tons of different looking pastels and their all the same gene.

so this isn't even a debate anymore? why is some info on this not stickied or something... people still argue it.

[Watever]

Mojaves appear to have the same gene that causes leucism in the super form and white sides in one gene carriers. I think they just have other genes influencing pattern. I bet if you bred mojaves repeatedly to reduced pattern light colored normals, you could make something that looks like a lesser/butter. We've already seen pics posted here of light colored mojaves that have been confused with lessers.

I am not sure about that. But could be true that other gene are influencing the lesser or mojave look. But I doubt. Otherwise, when you breed a a Mojave/lesser lucy to a normal, you would have mojave that look like lesser and vice versa no ? Cause the ones I saw were looking quite different.

The Lesser ghost and the Mojave Ghost are totally different. Just like the Lesser Pastel is to the Pastave.

But with genetic, we never know Unless we are able to do a DNA test and identify the loci, then look at the difference between the genes, it will be hard to tell. It will be worse once more combos get created.

But if a lesser looks like a mojave, I wouldn't want it
It's like getting a bulldog that looks like a German Sheppard, we won't win any dogs competition...

[OhhWatALoser]

I am not sure about that. But could be true that other gene are influencing the lesser or mojave look. But I doubt. Otherwise, when you breed a a Mojave/lesser lucy to a normal, you would have mojave that look like lesser and vice versa no ? Cause the ones I saw were looking quite different.

The Lesser ghost and the Mojave Ghost are totally different. Just like the Lesser Pastel is to the Pastave.

But with genetic, we never know Unless we are able to do a DNA test and identify the loci, then look at the difference between the genes, it will be hard to tell. It will be worse once more combos get created.

But if a lesser looks like a mojave, I wouldn't want it
It's like getting a bulldog that looks like a German Sheppard, we won't win any dogs competition...

b