High Contrast Albino Question

[PythonWallace]

Do you see a lot of albinos whose white isn't bright? The white in faded albinos is just as bright as the white in normal and high contrast albinos. The contrast comes from the yellow. The deeper the yellow, the more contrast the animal has. Again, Cinnies and black pastels are very dark, having increased melanin, but they also have some what hyper xanthic pigment behind all that black. That is what gives the combos are high contrast, not becasuse of the darker blacks. Increased xanthism in albinos = high contrast. hypo xanthism in albinos = faded albinos. That's why the most faded albino that exists is the snow, an albino that is also an axanthic. That is why peds, which have very hyper xanthis edges around the brown areas makes such high contrast albinos. Albino pied have deep yellows and even oranges, because of the increased xanthism that is in piebalds to begin with. Cinny albinos and black pasel albinos also look more high contrast because of the amount of black only areas. They both make albinos that have larger areas of white, which when combined with the increased concentration of xanthiphore in the smaller yellow areas, adds to the higher contrast appearance. But that has to do with surface area and white:yellow ratios, not the degree of melanin an animal has in the dark areas.

Check it out for yourselves. The white in every albino is the same bright shade of white, for the most part. The melanin/black pigment/white areas in albinos, has nothing to do with the contrast of the albino's appearance.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ollection.html

[PythonWallace]

Forgive the numerous typos in my last post, I used spell check, but I've had a long, rough day and I started drinking a little earlier than usual.

[littleindiangirl]

I don't know why you think the white always stays white, no matter the animal. My albino girls white areas have significantly turned light yellow as she has aged... making her quite a bit less contrast. I can only believe that as the blushing on a normal lightens with age, the same happens with the black areas on the albinos, and makes them less contrasting.

I'm not so worried about the animal being yellow. Obviously, an albino BP will be yellow. In my mind, it's the white that losses that crisp whitness with age, and the darker black on the animal will remain a higher contrast on an albino.

[asplundii]

You actually want to breed it to an animal with hyper xanthism (high yellow), and not hyper melenism (high/dark black). The black will be the white areas on an albino, so to selectively breed for "high contrast" albinos you want to work with animals that have a lot of very dark "saffron" yellows.

Do you see a lot of albinos whose white isn't bright? The white in faded albinos is just as bright as the white in normal and high contrast albinos. The contrast comes from the yellow. The deeper the yellow, the more contrast the animal has. Again, Cinnies and black pastels are very dark, having increased melanin, but they also have some what hyper xanthic pigment behind all that black. That is what gives the combos are high contrast, not becasuse of the darker blacks. Increased xanthism in albinos = high contrast. hypo xanthism in albinos = faded albinos. That's why the most faded albino that exists is the snow, an albino that is also an axanthic. That is why peds, which have very hyper xanthis edges around the brown areas makes such high contrast albinos. Albino pied have deep yellows and even oranges, because of the increased xanthism that is in piebalds to begin with. Cinny albinos and black pasel albinos also look more high contrast because of the amount of black only areas. They both make albinos that have larger areas of white, which when combined with the increased concentration of xanthiphore in the smaller yellow areas, adds to the higher contrast appearance. But that has to do with surface area and white:yellow ratios, not the degree of melanin an animal has in the dark areas.

Check it out for yourselves. The white in every albino is the same bright shade of white, for the most part. The melanin/black pigment/white areas in albinos, has nothing to do with the contrast of the albino's appearance.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ollection.html

Wallace, you logic is both right and wrong.

Contrast is the degree of contrast between tones. To get a sharp degree of contrast you need to have a boost in xanthins and in the alien heads and joint boost of melanin/lack of xanthins in the background. Animals that have more brown/red backgrounds and/or marked blushing on them tend to have higher levels of xanthin in the background areas. If you look at an older albino everywhere it is blushing it is yellow.

However long and short is that it is not all about the xanthins and you do not want to breed to a hyper xanthic animal. Look at the albino pastel. That is a hyper xanthic animal and it is not high contrast cause it is mostly yellow.

So, while the quality of the yellow does stem from the xanthins there is more to it than just breeding to a hyper xanthic animal

[PythonWallace]

LOL Connie.

Wallace, you logic is both right and wrong.

Contrast is the degree of contrast between tones. To get a sharp degree of contrast you need to have a boost in xanthins and in the alien heads and joint boost of melanin/lack of xanthins in the background. Animals that have more brown/red backgrounds and/or marked blushing on them tend to have higher levels of xanthin in the background areas. If you look at an older albino everywhere it is blushing it is yellow.

However long and short is that it is not all about the xanthins and you do not want to breed to a hyper xanthic animal. Look at the albino pastel. That is a hyper xanthic animal and it is not high contrast cause it is mostly yellow.

So, while the quality of the yellow does stem from the xanthins there is more to it than just breeding to a hyper xanthic animal

I think my logic is correct, but I did leave out the factor that should be a given. Obviously, if you want to breed for high contrast in any morph, you want stock that has a sharp, crisp pattern. You obviously wouldn't start with blurry balls, or animals that have a lot of faded blushing. That goes for any high contrast project, because contrast obviously involves little to no transition between the light and dark areas of the pattern. Using your example, a lot of pastels have varying degrees of light blushing, where the xanthiphore in those areas is light and faded. Those animals obviously wouldn't be a good choice to use in a high contrast project of any kind, as faded, light yellow blushing goes against what I said about choosing breeders with deep saffron yellows. But there are also plenty of high contrast pastels that don't have any blushing, but have sharp, crisp patterns and colors. Those would make great stock for a lot of high contrast projects, and as long as the yellows in those animals is deep enough, it would make great high contrast albinos. The amount of black doesn't necessarily matter, but blacks that aren't solid, deep black tend to be that way due to blushing, which always includes a weak shade of yellow. So you can have an animal with a crisp sharp pattern, and dark, deep blacks, but if the yellow areas are washed out or faded, the albino offspring are likely going to be faded albinos, no matter how sharp the pattern is. On the other hand, if you have the same breeding stock with the same lack of blushing and deeper saffron yellows, you are going to have high contrast albinos, no matter how gray the black areas on the pattern are. It's a given that the breeders should not have a lot of light blushing or blurry patterns when aiming for high contrast offspring, but that is not the same as automatically picking breeders that are hyper melanistic. That is the mistake I see people often make.

[asplundii]

Wallace,

I think we are actually saying the same thing just in different terms. I never used the phrase "hyper melanistic" so I am not sure where that entered into the equation... In my original post I said you wanted to breed to animals with 1) a dark black background and 2) high gold "aliens". I am guessing that you thought I meant hyper melanistic when I was talking about the dark black background?? That is not the case though, I was just saying to use "high contrast" normals which would have a marked difference between background and alien. I also believe that the red/brown flush in the background colour of the animal is from xanthins so if you use an animal that is more black than it is red you are less likely to get the "dirty" yellow spots popping up in the white areas of an albino.

[nevohraalnavnoj]

Do you see a lot of albinos whose white isn't bright? The white in faded albinos is just as bright as the white in normal and high contrast albinos. The contrast comes from the yellow.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ollection.html

I wish I had a camera so I could snap some pics. I both agree and disagree based on the animal.

I have one albino with nice clean white, who has medium contrast due to her yellows. If her yellows were brighter she would be higher contrast.

On the other hand, I have an albino with BLAZING yellows. Her contrast is reduced, however, because she has some yellow burnouts coming into her white. So even though her yellow is insane, the lack of clean whites reduces her contrast.

These splotches were not there when she was a hatchling, but I believe they correspond to her burnouts coming in as she gets older.

JonV

[nevohraalnavnoj]

I don't know why you think the white always stays white, no matter the animal. My albino girls white areas have significantly turned light yellow as she has aged... making her quite a bit less contrast.

Ditto!

[PythonWallace]

You actually want to breed it to an animal with hyper xanthism (high yellow), and not hyper melenism (high/dark black). The black will be the white areas on an albino, so to selectively breed for "high contrast" albinos you want to work with animals that have a lot of very dark "saffron" yellows.

If this were the case, going for a high yellow animal would decrease the contrast between the white and yellow on the albino wouldnt it?

Maybe it's late, but it makes more sense to breed an animal with very dark black, like black pastels have, those have turned out to be some gorgeous animals since they so often have the extra dark head and dorsal.

Any contrast is going to come from the color of the yellow in an albino. Any black, no matter how light or dark, will be white, and there aren't varying degrees of white in albinos. It's either solid white or some shade of yellow. Cinnies have somewhat hyperxanthic color going on under all that black, so albino cinnies have deeper yellows = high contract.

My thinking was the deeper black colors will remain whiter than a high yellow blushed black pattern...

I just keep thinking about the black pastel albinos, and how they are such a high contrast. The darker the animal, it does seem they make KILLER albinos.

Do you see a lot of albinos whose white isn't bright? The white in faded albinos is just as bright as the white in normal and high contrast albinos. The contrast comes from the yellow. The deeper the yellow, the more contrast the animal has. Again, Cinnies and black pastels are very dark, having increased melanin, but they also have some what hyper xanthic pigment behind all that black. That is what gives the combos the high contrast, not because of the darker blacks. Increased xanthism in albinos = high contrast. hypo xanthism in albinos = faded albinos. That's why the most faded albino that exists is the snow, an albino that is also an axanthic. That is why peds, which have very hyper xanthic edges around the brown areas makes such high contrast albinos. Albino pied have deep yellows and even oranges, because of the increased xanthism that is in piebalds to begin with. Cinny albinos and black pastel albinos also look more high contrast because of the amount of black only areas. They both make albinos that have larger areas of white, which when combined with the increased concentration of xanthiphore in the smaller yellow areas, adds to the higher contrast appearance. But that has to do with surface area and white:yellow ratios, not the degree of melanin an animal has in the dark areas.

Check it out for yourselves. The white in every albino is the same bright shade of white, for the most part. The melanin/black pigment/white areas in albinos, has nothing to do with the contrast of the albino's appearance.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ollection.html

I don't know why you think the white always stays white, no matter the animal. My albino girls white areas have significantly turned light yellow as she has aged... making her quite a bit less contrast. I can only believe that as the blushing on a normal lightens with age, the same happens with the black areas on the albinos, and makes them less contrasting.

I'm not so worried about the animal being yellow. Obviously, an albino BP will be yellow. In my mind, it's the white that losses that crisp whitness with age, and the darker black on the animal will remain a higher contrast on an albino.

LOL Connie.



I think my logic is correct, but I did leave out the factor that should be a given. Obviously, if you want to breed for high contrast in any morph, you want stock that has a sharp, crisp pattern. You obviously wouldn't start with blurry balls, or animals that have a lot of faded blushing. That goes for any high contrast project, because contrast obviously involves little to no transition between the light and dark areas of the pattern. Using your example, a lot of pastels have varying degrees of light blushing, where the xanthiphore in those areas is light and faded. Those animals obviously wouldn't be a good choice to use in a high contrast project of any kind, as faded, light yellow blushing goes against what I said about choosing breeders with deep saffron yellows. But there are also plenty of high contrast pastels that don't have any blushing, but have sharp, crisp patterns and colors. Those would make great stock for a lot of high contrast projects, and as long as the yellows in those animals is deep enough, it would make great high contrast albinos. The amount of black doesn't necessarily matter, but blacks that aren't solid, deep black tend to be that way due to blushing, which always includes a weak shade of yellow. So you can have an animal with a crisp sharp pattern, and dark, deep blacks, but if the yellow areas are washed out or faded, the albino offspring are likely going to be faded albinos, no matter how sharp the pattern is. On the other hand, if you have the same breeding stock with the same lack of blushing and deeper saffron yellows, you are going to have high contrast albinos, no matter how gray the black areas on the pattern are. It's a given that the breeders should not have a lot of light blushing or blurry patterns when aiming for high contrast offspring, but that is not the same as automatically picking breeders that are hyper melanistic. That is the mistake I see people often make.

Wallace,

I think we are actually saying the same thing just in different terms. I never used the phrase "hyper melanistic" so I am not sure where that entered into the equation... In my original post I said you wanted to breed to animals with 1) a dark black background and 2) high gold "aliens". I am guessing that you thought I meant hyper melanistic when I was talking about the dark black background?? That is not the case though, I was just saying to use "high contrast" normals which would have a marked difference between background and alien. I also believe that the red/brown flush in the background colour of the animal is from xanthins so if you use an animal that is more black than it is red you are less likely to get the "dirty" yellow spots popping up in the white areas of an albino.

I wish I had a camera so I could snap some pics. I both agree and disagree based on the animal.

I have one albino with nice clean white, who has medium contrast due to her yellows. If her yellows were brighter she would be higher contrast.

On the other hand, I have an albino with BLAZING yellows. Her contrast is reduced, however, because she has some yellow burnouts coming into her white. So even though her yellow is insane, the lack of clean whites reduces her contrast.

These splotches were not there when she was a hatchling, but I believe they correspond to her burnouts coming in as she gets older.

JonV

This boils down to me saying that the breeders should have deep saffron yellows, and should not have light yellows or faded blushing, which is a light shade of yellow, while you guys disagree and say that you have animals with yellow blushing that makes them have less contrast? If the blushing is a shade of yellow, than it cannot be a shade of white. I understand that you say this comes in later a lot of the time, but it's still yellow, and not solid white. I think we are saying the same thing. I'm just trying to make it clear that animals with deep, dark blacks are not the main thing to look for when looking for breeding stock for a high contrast albino project. I see that it is in a lot of posts about the subject. Axanthic cinnies and axanthic pieds have deep, dark blacks and good contrast, but they will definitely not make high contrast albinos. Any animal, no matter how deep the black, and how sharp the contrast, will not make high contrast albinos if the yellows aren't deeper than average. Any light yellow blushing voids that by contradicting it. We are only talking about two pigments here: black and yellow. I'm auguing that ALL the yellow has to be rich and deep, which excludes blushing, and that the BLACK piment can be any shade of black, and as long as it isn't a lighter black due to yellow blushing, the area will still be white. Bsically, you can start with orange and light gray breeders, but not deep black and average yellow breeders, and end up with high contrast albino offspring.

[littleindiangirl]

This boils down to me saying that... ... ALL the yellow has to be rich and deep, which excludes blushing, and that the BLACK pigment can be any shade of black, and as long as it isn't a lighter black due to yellow blushing, the area will still be white.