Question About Feeding Stunned Mice

[Montie Python]

Again, I'm still new at this, but i have a question...

When I worked in a pet shop (long long ago), we used to finger flick the mice in the head...We held them by the tail and just gave them a good pluck in the head...And there wasn't every a problem...the downside is, the mouse does regain conscience after 5 min if its not taken down by the snake. Would love to hear some feedback about this...

[MarkS]

Again, I'm still new at this, but i have a question...

When I worked in a pet shop (long long ago), we used to finger flick the mice in the head...We held them by the tail and just gave them a good pluck in the head...And there wasn't every a problem...the downside is, the mouse does regain conscience after 5 min if its not taken down by the snake. Would love to hear some feedback about this...

How does YOUR head feel after being knocked unconscious? This will definitely cause lasting pain to the animal and I consider that to be cruel.

[panthercz]

I personally feel there is no reason to stun a mouse.
Drop in mouse and come back a little while later. If mouse is still present, remove mouse. I don't think you have to worry about a mouse ripping apart a snake in 5 minutes. That kind of thing usually happens overnight or even longer.

You're wasting your time "stunning" the mouse and I personally think it's cruel, it is not a quick clean kill, you're bludgeoning the little thing.

[littleindiangirl]

CO2 is an easy and effective way, that when done properly is effective and completely irreversible. It is easy to set up, and literally doesn't require anything beyond patience waiting for the animal to pass. You don't even have to watch the animal while this is done.

Cervical dislocation is recommended for small animals, but can be done improperly resulting in an injured animal. It is not recommended for animals over 150 grams.

Smacking can go wrong too. If you have to smack a few times, it was not a clean death, and I can't see any reason to do it.

In my opinion, of those three methods, CO2 is easiest on both human and animals.

That said, I feed live. Snakes are perfectly capable and equipped with the catching and killing of their meal.

[Exotic Ectotherms]

How does YOUR head feel after being knocked unconscious? This will definitely cause lasting pain to the animal and I consider that to be cruel.

I agree 100%.

[kc261]

Cervical dislocation is recommended for small animals, but can be done improperly resulting in an injured animal. It is not recommended for animals over 150 grams.

As always, Connie is a font of knowledge and has a lot of good things to say. I am curious about this one point, however. I've known people to use CD on animals considerably bigger than 150 grams, such as adult rabbits and chickens. Do you know anything about why it is not recommended for bigger animals, or have a reference?

[k2l3d4]

My boyfriends BP will only hit live, and so he holds on to the mouse by the tail and twists and turns it so it is dizzy and disoriented... that way the BP has an easier time of hitting the mouse with out the mouse fighting back.

[Blizzarddude]

How does YOUR head feel after being knocked unconscious? This will definitely cause lasting pain to the animal and I consider that to be cruel.

Isn't the mouse going to DIE anyways? In a pet shop situation the mouse is going to be led on to the next snake until its eaten anyways. Wouldn't matter much if he has a headache or not. Its a mouse for God's sake.

[frankykeno]

Again, I'm still new at this, but i have a question...

When I worked in a pet shop (long long ago), we used to finger flick the mice in the head...We held them by the tail and just gave them a good pluck in the head...And there wasn't every a problem...the downside is, the mouse does regain conscience after 5 min if its not taken down by the snake. Would love to hear some feedback about this...

I don't do stunning because I don't want a live and distressed prey animal "waking" up around one of my snakes in a closed environment. Also quite honestly if the snake is not capable of doing it's feeding in the way nature built it to do, then I would just feed it f/t and be done with it. I monitor our snakes as they mature and make sure that they can handle the live prey offered to them. I also work hard to make sure the prey is well fed, well hydrated, unstressed and calm when it enters the feeding environment.

It's generally over in seconds and is, in my opinion, a far more humane and clean death than pretty much anything I can do.

As always, Connie is a font of knowledge and has a lot of good things to say. I am curious about this one point, however. I've known people to use CD on animals considerably bigger than 150 grams, such as adult rabbits and chickens. Do you know anything about why it is not recommended for bigger animals, or have a reference?

Here you go, from.....(pls note, bolding is my addition to show the part that answers your question)

AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia
(Formerly Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia) - June2007

Link can be found here....

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

CERVICAL DISLOCATION

Cervical dislocation is a technique that has been used for many years and, when performed by well-trained individuals, appears to be humane. However, there are few scientific studies to confirm this observation. This technique is used to euthanatize poultry, other small birds, mice, and immature rats and rabbits. For mice and rats, the thumb and index finger are placed on either side of the neck at the base of the skull or, alternatively, a rod is pressed at the base of the skull. With the other hand, the base of the tail or the hind limbs are quickly pulled, causing separation of the cervical vertebrae from the skull. For immature rabbits, the head is held in one hand and the hind limbs in the other. The animal is stretched and the neck is hyperextended and dorsally twisted to separate the first cervical vertebra from the skull.72, 111 For poultry, cervical dislocation by stretching is a common method for mass euthanasia, but loss of consciousness may not be instantaneous.134
Data suggest that electrical activity in the brain persists for 13 seconds following cervical dislocation, 127 and unlike decapitation, rapid exsanguination does not contribute to loss of consciousness.128, 129

Advantages—
(1) Cervical dislocation is a technique that may induce rapid loss of consciousness.84, 127
(2) It does not chemically contaminate tissue.
(3) It is rapidly accomplished.

Disadvantages—
(1) Cervical dislocation may be aesthetically displeasing to personnel.
(2) Cervical dislocation requires mastering technical skills to ensure loss of consciousness is rapidly induced.
(3) Its use is limited to poultry, other small birds, mice, and immature rats and rabbits.

Recommendations—
Manual cervical dislocation is a humane technique for euthanasia of poultry, other small birds, mice, rats weighing < 200 g, and rabbits weighing < 1 kg when performed by individuals with a demonstrated high degree of technical proficiency. In lieu of demonstrated technical competency, animals must be sedated or anesthetized prior to cervical dislocation. The need for technical competency is greater in heavy rats and rabbits, in which the large muscle mass in the cervical region makes manual cervical dislocation physically more difficult.130 In research settings, this technique should be used only when scientifically justified by the user and approved by the Institutional Animal

Care and Use Committee.
Those responsible for the use of this technique must ensure that personnel performing cervical dislocation techniques have been properly trained and consistently apply it humanely and effectively.

Hope that helps answer your question.

[kc261]

Thanks Joanna, that does answer my question, both from the angle of why it is not recommended for bigger animals, and also that the people I have known to use it probably were within or at least close to these guidelines since the size it can be used on is bigger for rabbits and poultry than it is for rats.