I am not a believer -do you think you can convert me?

[starmom]

This is an excellent thread Jimmy. Thank you for bringing these points up. I agree with what others have said already, but would like to add something that hasn't been mentioned (or I missed when reading) in regard to #2. Often, the bigger the enclosure, the more difficult it is to keep the temperature gradient and humidity constant and in the proper ranges. If the snake doesn't have these choices available to him/her, he/she is likely to go off feed just as if they are freaking out because they have nowhere to hide. This suggestion is often made in order to prevent both of these potential problems.

This might be true when in a glass tank, but it is not true when the snakes are housed in a reptile cage (RBI, AP, etc.)

[jimmyfoxca]

The information I am gathering from the posts thus far is two fold.

First, some good points have been made that many (if not every) ball python are different. For instance, Eddie Strong, Jr had a snake go off feed when moved to a large 90 gallon tank. This was regardless of the hides. However, ohyeahnow is an example of someone who uses different hides and the snakes are feeding fine. Also, Alicia Holmes is an example of someone who has enclosures as low as 75 degrees and and a hot spot that does not get up to 90 degrees (also with no apparent ill effects).

Second, I gather ones willingness to deviate from the norm will likely be followed by extra work. For example, a large glass enclosure is going to require more hydro and tweaking to maintain heat and humidity. It appears however, if these factors are met, a snake should be fine. The key however is that the keeper must be willing to take the time to maintain proper health.

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for. Now, when I say resilient, I do not mean if you put them in a bucket in the corner they will survive. What I mean is if things where done different would they thrive and not simply survive. Case in point, I received a ball python that was kept in a large glass enclosure that had one hide over a heat pad that only reached 76 degrees. The remainder of the enclosure stayed at a room temperature of what I measured to be 69 degrees. This snake ate like you wouldn't believe; never refusing a meal (I took the keepers word for it because it ate fine when I got it and it had a healthy weight). I did however change it's set-up to a warm hide of 90, an identical cool hide of 80 and an ambient temperature of 78. Is this case an exception to the rule?

Food for thought,

Jimmy

P.S. if I am just beating this to death and you want to drop the subject, let me know .

[Wh00h0069]

So, if you exclude irresponsible hobbyists who will likely have poor animals regardless, do you think snakes (ball pythons in particular) are more resilient than we give them credit for.

Yes, I do believe that snakes are much more resilient than we give them credit for. I know that it is possible to keep snakes in room temperature, with low humidity, but I also believe that they will have a much more healthy life if they are kept in proper conditions. With low heat, they may not be able to digest their food properly. They would also digest their food much more slowly. This would cause them to go off food because they would not be hungry. They would have bad sheds, which could cause them to stress out. Without hides, they would likely become stressed out, and stop eating.

All in all, I think that it is possible to keep them in improper conditions, but I do not see any reason too. I want my pets to be as happy as possible, so I keep them in the correct conditions.

[jimmyfoxca]

Its a hobby, not a science.

I would argue that our hobby and science can be one in the same. Science does not mean what many think it means. Science is first, hypothesizing a theory (snakes need two identical hides). Second, testing that theory (providing different hides). Third, measuring the results (is the snake still eating/shedding). Finally, if your theory is right you can test to see if there are any other variables that influenced the results (one of the different hides was too small/big). Also, if your theory is wrong you could try to replicate the 'experiment' with other snakes and see what you get.

The key to remember is that even scientific theory is rarely 'done'. There is always other things that can be done to alter the experiment thus altering the results.

I am not currently interested in breeding snakes. To keep me interested in the hobby I would have to have a lot of money to keep buying/housing more and more snakes. For this reason, I choose to experiment with the ones I already have. That is how I define my hobby. I think it is cool and perhaps some day I will give breeding a try (I would like the challenge of breeding green tree pythons).

Jimmy

[Wh00h0069]

I would argue that our hobby and science can be one in the same. Science does not mean what many think it means. Science is first, hypothesizing a theory (snakes need two identical hides). Second, testing that theory (providing different hides). Third, measuring the results (is the snake still eating/shedding). Finally, if your theory is right you can test to see if there are any other variables that influenced the results (one of the different hides was too small/big). Also, if your theory is wrong you could try to replicate the 'experiment' with other snakes and see what you get.

The key to remember is that even scientific theory is rarely 'done'. There is always other things that can be done to alter the experiment thus altering the results.

I am not currently interested in breeding snakes. To keep me interested in the hobby I would have to have a lot of money to keep buying/housing more and more snakes. For this reason, I choose to experiment with the ones I already have. That is how I define my hobby. I think it is cool and perhaps some day I will give breeding a try (I would like the challenge of breeding green tree pythons).

Jimmy

I agree with you here. I do not see anything wrong with experimenting, as long as you are not harming the animals, which it does not sound to me like you are at all.

Breeding is definitely great. I love it. I bred balls last season, and am in the process of breeding my boas. It is an expensive hobby, but I love it.

[Ophiuchus]

I would argue that our hobby and science can be one in the same. Science does not mean what many think it means. Science is first, hypothesizing a theory (snakes need two identical hides). Second, testing that theory (providing different hides). Third, measuring the results (is the snake still eating/shedding). Finally, if your theory is right you can test to see if there are any other variables that influenced the results (one of the different hides was too small/big). Also, if your theory is wrong you could try to replicate the 'experiment' with other snakes and see what you get.

The key to remember is that even scientific theory is rarely 'done'. There is always other things that can be done to alter the experiment thus altering the results.

I am not currently interested in breeding snakes. To keep me interested in the hobby I would have to have a lot of money to keep buying/housing more and more snakes. For this reason, I choose to experiment with the ones I already have. That is how I define my hobby. I think it is cool and perhaps some day I will give breeding a try (I would like the challenge of breeding green tree pythons).

Jimmy

I can agree with that. Like I said, when we're dealing with such relatively resilient animals such as snakes, there's any number of ways to achieve your goal (that being a healthy snake that sheds and eats good). Kind of an "ends justifies the means."

I recently experimented myself.

Its long been a general rule that all lizards, with the exception of geckos, require UV lighting. However, in recent years, talking with several keepers, their consensus was that many lizards do not require it, and they have great success with their animals eating and breeding.

So when we acquires a baby BTS in January, I didn't provide him with any UVB, In fact, he's never been exposed to it to this day. He is practically fullgrown and not even a year old!

Now, there are definitely other factors to consider, such as providing a proper diet. But my conclusion (along with others) is that UV lighting isn't as critical as originally believed.

[juddb]

Okay, perhaps I approached this the wrong way and for that I apologize. I get the impression that I sounded a little arrogant or something. I still want to discuss the main points. Let me reword this:

Title: Looking to expand my skills.

I have often heard people on the internet say:

1. Ball pythons need to have two identical hides. One on the cool side and one on the hot side. This is because if they prefer one over the other they will not thermoregulate properly. They will choose security over their own well being.

2. If an enclosure is to big, the snake may become stressed out and refuse food. Thus, you should get a smaller enclosure or put lots of extra hiding spaces.

Are there other ways to provide a naturalistic enclosure for ball pythons without sacrificing their health or security. If so, what are they. This would be a good thread to debate the pros and cons of the standard method of husbandry and any other options.

Jimmy

Im sure its already been said but, i believe you can house a ball python in any enclosure you want too, as long as you provide the required temp/humidity needs of the animal, with some secure hides here and there, and it should do fine. Its all just easier to manage in a plastic tub for most. Great thread by the way!

[jimmyfoxca]

So when we acquires a baby BTS in January, I didn't provide him with any UVB, In fact, he's never been exposed to it to this day. He is practically fullgrown and not even a year old!

Wow. That is a bold one. Are there ways one can determine they have enough vitamin D (which I assume you are supplementing). Can one determine if it has bones strong enough to support it into adulthood and beyond. I have minimal experience with lizards (I had a bearded dragon for 5 months).

Very interesting none the less.

Jimmy

[Ophiuchus]

Wow. That is a bold one. Are there ways one can determine they have enough vitamin D (which I assume you are supplementing). Can one determine if it has bones strong enough to support it into adulthood and beyond. I have minimal experience with lizards (I had a bearded dragon for 5 months).

Very interesting none the less.

Jimmy

Hard to say if they're getting "enough' because no one really knows how much is "enough" to begin with.

He gets fed Zupreme canned monitor diet (which says it already contains vD3) mixed with veggies 2x weekly and once a week, he just gets a little veggie salad with some vitamins sprinkled on top.

He is large, but not obese. And I always examine him to make sure he is not suffering from any form of MBD.

I've talked with several breeders doing this with bearded dragons and monitors, providing no exposure to UV lighting, and their animals breed like crazy and produce viable offspring year after year.

[simplechamp]

I only have one BP so far, and she has one hide. It is big enough for her to be on the warm side or the cool side, or somewhere in between. Many will say it is too big, and I should offer two smaller hides. But I will stick with my method until I have a snake who shows signs of stress from not having 2 smaller identical hides.

It's all about what works for you and your snakes. We do what we can to look for signs of stress and signs of comfort, but we can only do so much. Until we figure out a way to communicate with animals doctor doolittle style we just have to observe and interpret behaviors. There are many methods to keep a BP successfully, and you need to use trial and error to find what works for you. Aside from some basic requirements there are very few black and white answers to BP husbandry questions. Most are in that grey area that is subject to personal opinion and preference.