Updated allelic list

[OhhWatALoser]

I wont be able to edit my post after, so updated list can be found here: http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php

This is what I have so far.

BEL Complex	Super Stripe Complex	BlkEL Complex	8 Ball Complex	Albino Complex	Spider Complex
Bamboo	Asphalt	Disco	Black Pastel	Albino	Black Head
Butter	Flare	Fire	Cinnamon	Candy	Spider
Daddy Gene	Gravel	Flame	Het Red Axanthic	Toffee
Lesser	Orange Belly	Lemonback	Huffman
Mocha	Spark	Sauce	Lori
Mojave	Spector	Sulfur
Mystic	Yellow Belly	Vanilla
Phantom
Russo
Special

Notes about this list:
There are many morphs that I can't really find any difference between something else already on the list. ember being a sulfur, thunder being a vanilla, green pastel being a het red axanthic for example.
There are some morphs on the list that are the same, but the hobby has split them for so long i don't know if they really can be combined. Lesser/butter phantom/mystic for example.
I think Orange Belly need to be separated until we know whats up with the graphites.
Coffee i found no info on
still waiting to hear if Brite is in the BlkEL complex

Anyone have anything to add or think needs to be looked into?

[kxr]

I'm under the impression that there are a lot of examples where two or more lines of the same gene are on this list... Other than that I can't think of anything.


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[Oxylepy]

Honestly, I'm pretty sick of how BPs have been going. Everyone under the sun who thinks they have something "different" will get a new morph. Even if there are identical or close to identical other morphs. The end result is a very complicated and long list. Meanwhile we also have lines which have been lost to time because everyone is calling everything a new morph. So Ian G black pastels are hard to find, but we have morphs that look like normals and with supers who look like the hets.

I feel a lot of this needs cleaned up sustantially. Like the Allelic List needs to condense highly similar snakes into single morphs, and pay attention to the lines within them. There probably shouldn't be 300 basic ball python morphs, especially when a Butter/Lesser are nearly identical, with more variety within the pastels than between those two.

[OhhWatALoser]

There is a popular breeder that kinda famous for making up existing morphs......

I think besides lesser/butter and mystic/phantom. I have a reason for keeping the rest separate. Morphs being similar doesn't make them the same.

I also feel the opposite of lines, i think they are a problem. Ian G BP were famous for their dark coloring but a generation or 2 of out crossing could easily make a muddy black pastel and yet it is still considered Ian G. Look at how many lemon pastels are barely recognizable as pastels at all. If people would stop focusing on the marketing name and look at the animal, we might have more of the higher quality animals we strive for. If your line is that much better than the rest it shouldn't need a name, the animal should speak for itself.

[kxr]

I'm fairly convinced that there are only three genes in the BlkEL complex. Nothing I've seen thus far has proven otherwise. I'd happily change my opinion given some proof against it but thus far I haven't seen it.

I know you had another thread asking about lucifer... I don't see how you can include countless other lines of fire and discount lucifer seemingly solely because of its originator. IMO you should treat them all the same... include/disclude them all.

[OhhWatALoser]

Ok lets call fire the base line
Disco - disco fire is not a BlkEL so easy to see it is different https://www.google.com/search?q=fire...Km5vAJyw3aBEM:
vanilla- vanilla cream is different from disco fire http://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rept...-pythons/29807
flame - different from vanilla cream http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/amoretti/
lemonback - never seen a super lemonback throw color spotches like the super fire.
sauce - sauce vanilla seem to be different than any of the previous combos. I couldn't find a picture of a plain vanilla sauce, could swear ive seen one before, so this is the best i can post for now, compare http://www.morphmarket.com/us/c/rept...-pythons/35595 to any in here http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ng-bumble-bee/
sulfur - never seen a super fire throw color like a super sulfur can.

lucifer.... I don't see how its different from lemonback at this point
same as thunder, i don't see how its different from vanilla
ember, well this one i personally find ridiculous its seperate, ember and sulfur were bought from the same store on the same day. on top of that I don't see what makes them different from each other.
has nothing to do with the originator

[kxr]

I appreciate you doing that. While I'm not 100% convinced for all of them there are definitely some distinct differences there. I was honestly shocked by what I saw after googling super sulphur. I could have swore I'd seen one before... Maybe it was just a mislabelled super fire


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[OhhWatALoser]

I appreciate you doing that. While I'm not 100% convinced for all of them there are definitely some distinct differences there. I was honestly shocked by what I saw after googling super sulphur. I could have swore I'd seen one before... Maybe it was just a mislabelled super fire


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There are some super sulfurs that could pass for super fires, but there's no super fire that comes close to what some super sulfurs can be ( from what I've seen)

I have no issues revising my list given new info, these are the ones I've convinced myself of

[rufretic]

What about mahogany for the 8 ball complex? It makes the suma.

[JodanOrNoDan]

If people would stop focusing on the marketing name and look at the animal, we might have more of the higher quality animals we strive for. If your line is that much better than the rest it shouldn't need a name, the animal should speak for itself.

I agree with this 100%. I suggested something similar the other day, but the majority seemed to be against it. A lot of people seemed to be dead set against defining and rating single gene animals and if we cannot do this then there is a non-existent target for line breeding. Maybe the recognition of this, in my opinion negative, thought process is what is motivating people to name their lines.