I didnt know where to put this... selfish or not? (Long Post)

[Soord]

Sorry I didn't know your history and from your post I did think you were under the age of 19. Anyways I shouldn't have been high on my horse and it does sounds like you have your own 'plan.' Good luck with your future.

Haha its all good. I think the whole reason i fought soooo much was because of they insinuated that i was a bad owner (comparing me to bhb reptiles and saying i probably like snakebytetv, some stuff notorious on fauna for devenoming (which is a huge debate about cruelty) and the the alleged poor quality of bhb reptiles (i have never bought from them so idk how they actually are, just read reviews). You guys really gave me a perspective to their thinking without attacking my husbandry and stuff and im honestly really curious at the morality and stuff surrounding this topic. (also what yall though of the market)

I guess i just see red and act like a teen with an attitude problem when i feel someone thinks i would ever abuse or neglect my beautiful babies

[Christinnnian]

I dont really know whos approval you are talking about?

I guess an example would be a tip jar you set out. You arent asking for anything, it is just there. You probably dont even expect anything, but if people gives you money that is their choice to spend their "hard earned" money. If my gf mentions she wants to go to a ball game sometime, and you surprise her with tickets, is that a scenerio of her being selfish? Im not trying to get anyones approval for anything im just trying to wrap my head around where the line is? What makes that scenerio different? Or taking a friend to a music show spontaneously? Or even buying your child a puppy they have on their xmas list? Where does the line end? (not to get philosophical haha)

The difference in your examples is that you're referencing giving someone a gift that incidentally has a monetary value. The contrast with crowdfunded donations is that people are donating a liquid form of currency that can theoretically be spent on anything, and people like to feel secure when they make a donation that it is for a legit and reasoned expense. A tip jar is an active solicitation because it's usually right at the register and labeled; it's there in plain sight and hard to miss. Obviously no one is obligated to tip but it's the visibility and presence that makes it an active act. Giving someone a gift with monetary value that they've expressed interest in is completely different because you've already determined how the money is spent, i.e. tickets to a game or a puppy. Obviously someone could sell the tickets or puppy and turn the gift into liquid currency, but you as a gift giver would be highly offended. In my opinion the line has a lot to do with the form in which you are soliciting- if you're soliciting money for a want, that is tacky, but if you're soliciting items useful to your goal then your donators feel this is more of a gift and are secure in their investment in that you're locked in to what they give you and can't say "buying a snake" and then buying hookers and blow lol.

[Creepy Alien]

Ughhh... Good for you (and shame on her).

I'll tell you a little story about gofundme. My oldest son got very sick. He is on his own but not established enough to handle those kinds of bills. I made a deal with my ex-wife that I would cover half and she would cover half. She decided she was going to get her half by using gofundme (she did not need to do this). When I found out I was mortified. I was raised that things are handled within the family. I immediately called her up and said I would pay for the whole thing and sent a check to my son for the full amount of the hospital bill. She kept the money she got from gofundme anyway and did lord knows what with it. Personally I think that is lower than low. This is the type of thing you are dealing with on gofundme.

[Soord]

The difference in your examples is that you're referencing giving someone a gift that incidentally has a monetary value. The contrast with crowdfunded donations is that people are donating a liquid form of currency that can theoretically be spent on anything, and people like to feel secure when they make a donation that it is for a legit and reasoned expense. A tip jar is an active solicitation because it's usually right at the register and labeled; it's there in plain sight and hard to miss. Obviously no one is obligated to tip but it's the visibility and presence that makes it an active act. Giving someone a gift with monetary value that they've expressed interest in is completely different because you've already determined how the money is spent, i.e. tickets to a game or a puppy. Obviously someone could sell the tickets or puppy and turn the gift into liquid currency, but you as a gift giver would be highly offended. In my opinion the line has a lot to do with the form in which you are soliciting- if you're soliciting money for a want, that is tacky, but if you're soliciting items then your donators feel secure in their investment in that you're locked in to what they give you and can't say "buying a snake" and then buying hookers and blow lol.

That is a good way to explain it. I guess it could carry over to an Amazon wishlist too in a way that you actually buy the item for them you arent giving "liquid money" into their accounts. So people have a natural aversion to crowdfunding because of the lack of security with it? I guess i wouldn't inherently call that selfish until it becomes coercion in the same way that i dont view a tip jar is selfish until you find out the owner takes a large percentage for himself. I do agree with you that it is inherently active, though. Youve convinced me of that but i feel like i need to redefine being selfish now . The line is still a little muddled for me when it comes to being selfish and not (as i mentioned with the tip jar). There is a lot of grey area with that example too because of the weird politics behind wages and service industry workers and it is a toss up which restaurant pays actual wages so im not sure it can even be defined or answered at all. Thanks!

[Nellasaur]

The difference in your examples is that you're referencing giving someone a gift that incidentally has a monetary value. The contrast with crowdfunded donations is that people are donating a liquid form of currency that can theoretically be spent on anything, and people like to feel secure when they make a donation that it is for a legit and reasoned expense. A tip jar is an active solicitation because it's usually right at the register and labeled; it's there in plain sight and hard to miss. Obviously no one is obligated to tip but it's the visibility and presence that makes it an active act. Giving someone a gift with monetary value that they've expressed interest in is completely different because you've already determined how the money is spent, i.e. tickets to a game or a puppy. Obviously someone could sell the tickets or puppy and turn the gift into liquid currency, but you as a gift giver would be highly offended. In my opinion the line has a lot to do with the form in which you are soliciting- if you're soliciting money for a want, that is tacky, but if you're soliciting items useful to your goal then your donators feel this is more of a gift and are secure in their investment in that you're locked in to what they give you and can't say "buying a snake" and then buying hookers and blow lol.

This is basically exactly what I was just going to say about the line between a donation towards a non-necessary expense and a gift. It's one thing when a person decides to make a "donation" in the form of a gift towards someone they love, and another for a person to reach out to anyone, even potential strangers, and ask for money. Even, say, a honeymoon fund jar (or online donation fund) is a gift situation-- if you're setting up a fund where wedding guests can make a donation towards your honeymoon, then clearly that would be considered part of their wedding gift to you. Same thing if I reached out to a bunch of my friends privately and said "Hey, I want to buy this snake for my birthday, can you give me money in lieu of a physical gift?" (I actually did that this year as I was trying to save up for some Transformers figures that I wanted. A few of my friends "donated" money to me, but it was specifically in lieu of an alternative gift that they would have bought me anyway.)

Additionally, I don't think it's fair to equate a tip jar to crowdfunding non-necessary expenses. When you leave someone a tip, it's generally considered a payment for exemplary service received. I don't tip to randomly donate to staff at a coffee shop or ice cream parlor, I tip because they're served me really well and I want to show them my appreciation. Even online tip jars-- like a link to a Paypal account on someone's blog-- is generally still considered to be a gratuity given in appreciation for a service. It's just that in the case of a blog, the service you're appreciating is the content the blogger provides, whatever that happens to be.

[Soord]

This is basically exactly what I was just going to say about the line between a donation towards a non-necessary expense and a gift. It's one thing when a person decides to make a "donation" in the form of a gift towards someone they love, and another for a person to reach out to anyone, even potential strangers, and ask for money. Even, say, a honeymoon fund jar (or online donation fund) is a gift situation-- if you're setting up a fund where wedding guests can make a donation towards your honeymoon, then clearly that would be considered part of their wedding gift to you. Same thing if I reached out to a bunch of my friends privately and said "Hey, I want to buy this snake for my birthday, can you give me money in lieu of a physical gift?" (I actually did that this year as I was trying to save up for some Transformers figures that I wanted. A few of my friends "donated" money to me, but it was specifically in lieu of an alternative gift that they would have bought me anyway.)

Additionally, I don't think it's fair to equate a tip jar to crowdfunding non-necessary expenses. When you leave someone a tip, it's generally considered a payment for exemplary service received. I don't tip to randomly donate to staff at a coffee shop or ice cream parlor, I tip because they're served me really well and I want to show them my appreciation. Even online tip jars-- like a link to a Paypal account on someone's blog-- is generally still considered to be a gratuity given in appreciation for a service. It's just that in the case of a blog, the service you're appreciating is the content the blogger provides, whatever that happens to be.

I pretty much agree with the first part. It is a lot different with people you know and with items that you know it is for (even though it can be used for other things, you have an inherent trust in the person).

The second part I feel just gets into semantics about payment method, though. I agree that it is unfair to compare the straight setting up of a gofundme and a tip jar. If you tweak it a little im curious if you think it is still okay? For example:

If i had a donate button on my blog that took them to a gofundme instead of a paypal.me link and it happened to be for a snake, would that be acceptable?

[Nellasaur]

I pretty much agree with the first part. It is a lot different with people you know and with items that you know it is for (even though it can be used for other things, you have an inherent trust in the person).

The second part I feel just gets into semantics about payment method, though. I agree that it is unfair to compare the straight setting up of a gofundme and a tip jar. If you tweak it a little im curious if you think it is still okay? For example:

If i had a donate button on my blog that took them to a gofundme instead of a paypal.me link and it happened to be for a snake, would that be acceptable?

Hmmmm. That's a good question! I think for me, the line is drawn between receiving unsolicited donations (i.e., "If you like my blog and want to support my work, you can 'tip' me at this link") and soliciting (i.e., "I have set up this gofundme account to solicit donations towards a specific goal of getting a snake".) For some reason, that second option still doesn't feel right. I guess I just don't like the idea of asking the general public to give me money towards something that I don't need AND could get if I saved up for long enough.

On the other hand, if you ran a blog about reptiles and were blogging about your experiences with your own collection, and you set up an online donation campaign through the blog towards getting another snake, I would possibly donate to that? Because I would see it as a tip or a payment, in the sense that I enjoy your writing (or photos or vids or tutorials or whatever), so I'm giving you money to support you in continuing to do what you do. In that case, I WOULD be getting something out of it--more content on your blog!

But if your blog was just a random blog about your life, or about something completely different-- like, if you ran a blog about, IDK, basket weaving, and you were asking for donations to get a snake-- that would seem weird to me? I dunno, it's a very fine distinction, but it makes sense to me? But that could be just me.

[Soord]

Hmmmm. That's a good question! I think for me, the line is drawn between receiving unsolicited donations (i.e., "If you like my blog and want to support my work, you can 'tip' me at this link") and soliciting (i.e., "I have set up this gofundme account to solicit donations towards a specific goal of getting a snake".) For some reason, that second option still doesn't feel right. I guess I just don't like the idea of asking the general public to give me money towards something that I don't need AND could get if I saved up for long enough.

On the other hand, if you ran a blog about reptiles and were blogging about your experiences with your own collection, and you set up an online donation campaign through the blog towards getting another snake, I would possibly donate to that? Because I would see it as a tip or a payment, in the sense that I enjoy your writing (or photos or vids or tutorials or whatever), so I'm giving you money to support you in continuing to do what you do. In that case, I WOULD be getting something out of it--more content on your blog!

But if your blog was just a random blog about your life, or about something completely different-- like, if you ran a blog about, IDK, basket weaving, and you were asking for donations to get a snake-- that would seem weird to me? I dunno, it's a very fine distinction, but it makes sense to me? But that could be just me.

I tend to agree with this. I think this area is where the dissent stemmed from in the first place, meaning i meant the whole thing to be as non soliciting as possible (think less asking for money, more just putting it on my blog as a "support my goal if you feel like it" type thing and not soliciting for it at all. I had this vision in mind, (probably because ive never used crowdfunding in the fisrt place and dont quite know the culture) and the other persons just had a different vision of the word crowdfunding. If someone posted on facebook and twitter and tumblr every other day etc asking for money for a new snake AND it was the same situation i would totally agree that it would be a little much. I may even harbor some type of anger or annoyance toward them (which is also where i think it stemmed from. I have never actually had an experience where someone solicited for a frivolous expense so i dont necessarily come with any bias against it. I generally feel like "i wont donate but if they make their goal, cool", but i could see where the dissension can come into play) and could think they are selfish if the situation was right. I think the general problem in this specific scenerio is that everyone has an internal feeling of "selfishness" and our lines cross at different places from any type of soliciting, to only if I appreciate them soliciting, etc. There are so many different variables coming into play from how much they need it, how much they ask for it, how much they have raised, what the platform is, how they go about doing it, who is doing it, and how they promote it, etc. that it makes this a super interesting psychological and moral issue. Like given the scenario, many of us here would probably donate a small amount of money to a friend that wants a specific morph because of inherent biases we harbor that makes us trust them. If my friend is working to save up for a GHI and i KNEW they were actually saving for it and that they could support it, and also that they were actually going to buy it instead of drug or something, I would throw them a few bones if they had some sort of donation set up and i wouldnt think twice about them being selfish. Even if they didnt specifically ask me for the money. I think the general problem is the lack of trust with cf sites, and individual perceptions of the motives of the other people.

I tooootally know what you mean about a tough to describe line though. I just KNOW when someone is being selfish, its almost like a gut intuition where you know the line but it is tough for others to see and obviously others dont share the same line.

[EL-Ziggy]

I genuinely enjoy giving and helping others. It makes me feel good. I could care less if it's for something they need or just for something they want. I've given to causes that were both necessary and recreational. As long as the recipient is trying to help themselves and not totally relying on others to support them it doesn't bother me one bit. I don't care if their motives are pure or not. If they're dishonest, or seeking to take advantage of other peoples kindness, that's on their conscience and karma. If you continuously give, you'll continuously have IME.

[Soord]

I genuinely enjoy giving and helping others. It makes me feel good. I could care less if it's for something they need or just for something they want. I've given to causes that were both necessary and recreational. As long as the recipient is trying to help themselves and not totally relying on others to support them it doesn't bother me one bit. I don't care if their motives are pure or not. If they're dishonest, or seeking to take advantage of other peoples kindness, that's on their conscience and karma. If you continuously give, you'll continuously have IME.

That is a very good attitude to have if you can spare the money here and there

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