Is pine really that bad/

[MidSouthMorphs]

Aspen and Cyprus also contain phenols...









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It has been shown in studies that animals and humans exposed to pine and cedar are far more likely to develop respiratory infections. Although kiln dried is helpful, it never fully removes them all. But to each his own, if it works for you go for it.

But for those interested in aspen, here is a link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...edding-4-cu-ft

[bad-one]

I've used both aspen and pine and have never had any issues

[BCS]

It has been shown in studies that animals and humans exposed to pine and cedar are far more likely to develop respiratory infections. Although kiln dried is helpful, it never fully removes them all. But to each his own, if it works for you go for it.

But for those interested in aspen, here is a link. http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...edding-4-cu-ft

I live in Canada, buying from the US is OUT of the question... the cost for shipping alone would cost way over $100 for a single bag!

[BCS]

Pine and cedar have greater phenol content than cypress and aspen...

That being said, I'm not going to comment on the safety of pine bedding as I have absolutely no experience using it. Some people claim to have had problems from it, some people claim to have used it for years with no problems. It's just one of those things where you've got to weigh the evidence. Personally, I would probably switch to something like newspaper or paper towels rather than using pine, but that's just because I've used newspaper for my colubrids for years and it's free. Plus my snakes seem to enjoy getting between the pages.

The only thing I'd say definitely never use is cedar. It's kind of in a league of its own when it comes to potentially harmful compounds.

It costs me $10.50 for a roll of unprinted news paper. Pine costs $7.37 for 4 cubic feet which is compressed and expands. I already said this wasn't about cost anyway. The issue I have with newspaper and paper towel is the snakes hide under it and tend to attack my fingers during feeding day (as I lift up the paper to offer the rat). And they also poop on the tub floor. It would make more sense for my not to use any bedding at all if they just poop or pee on the tub floor anyway. I may not have as many BPs as some, but it would make life easier to not have to shower down each and every tub every time they defecate. Doesn't mean I wont do it just because I have pine, I would just have to do it less.

After posting this questions and receiving a few replies I decided to call two local Exotic Vets. One vet said it is completely fine and that they use for some of their reptiles as well. The other vet said to use it with good ventilation and to not buy "wet" pine. (So pine that has sat outside for long periods of time and may have gotten wet from rain).

Either way, I think I have a good few answers and I thank you all for them. I think this is a lot about opinion, rumors, myths, then actual facts from what I am reading. The resin part is the only fact I have received so far. Maybe I am wrong (I am always okay with being wrong as long as I learn something from it). The breeders here (where I live or in the area) have used pine for a long time it seems. Some people on this forum could argue till they were black and blue of why to and why not to use it. So far, the only reason I should not use (according to the people here) is simply because of a smell and resin. Aspen, as far as I am aware (which also grows naturally here) also has resin. So I am not too sure why people are worrying about one against the other as neither have full fledged proof of being harmful or safe? Simply saying "I wouldn't do it just because I have "heard" it is bad, seems to remind me a little bit about people having a fear of snakes. Scared of all snakes just because the media talks about legless killing machines, then the idea of "all snakes are bad" just because of a few bad stories when really these people are just not properly educated. And hey, maybe that person is me and not you but with people saying yes and no, it is kind of hard to get the proper education.

I think I am going to try it for my BPs. I use it for my rodents which my snakes do eat and nothing has happened as of yet... "Yet" can be a big word. If anything at all goes wrong, I will remove the pine from the tubs immediately.

[DVirginiana]

Simply saying "I wouldn't do it just because I have "heard" it is bad, seems to remind me a little bit about people having a fear of snakes. Scared of all snakes just because the media talks about legless killing machines, then the idea of "all snakes are bad" just because of a few bad stories when really these people are just not properly educated. And hey, maybe that person is me and not you but with people saying yes and no, it is kind of hard to get the proper education.
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Well, I never said that... Not sure if you meant to, but that came across as kind of insulting.

I said that I'd personally use paper before I used pine; it's easier for me to obtain, and I don't have that many animals so cleaning isn't an issue. I didn't say I'd never ever use pine just because some people say it's bad; heck, I didn't even say you shouldn't use pine. I was very clear that I wasn't going to give an opinion on it because I have no experience with it, and I believe pretty strongly that people shouldn't give advice on things they know nothing about. However, there is some debate about pine, so if I had the choice between a similarly priced or cheaper substrate that there is no debate over that's what I'd personally choose. There's no logical fallacy or 'fear' in that, it's a perfectly reasonable way to handle the situation.

Maybe 'that person' is you and not me, because I didn't say 'yes' or 'no' or give you any information that could be misleading in any way. I just commented on the fact that there are people on both sides of the pine debate, and said what I'd personally do, but that you'd just have to keep researching and see what works for you.

Sorry, I just fail to see where my completely neutral reply has you convinced that I said I'd never ever use pine and you shouldn't either.

EDIT: My comment about cedar is based on seven years spent studying plant biology, not something I heard on the internet. I'd have to see definitive proof that that was harmless before I used it.

[BCS]

Well, I never said that... Not sure if you meant to, but that came across as kind of insulting.

I said that I'd personally use paper before I used pine; it's easier for me to obtain, and I don't have that many animals so cleaning isn't an issue. I didn't say I'd never ever use pine just because some people say it's bad; heck, I didn't even say you shouldn't use pine. I was very clear that I wasn't going to give an opinion on it because I have no experience with it, and I believe pretty strongly that people shouldn't give advice on things they know nothing about. However, there is some debate about pine, so if I had the choice between a similarly priced or cheaper substrate that there is no debate over that's what I'd personally choose. There's no logical fallacy or 'fear' in that, it's a perfectly reasonable way to handle the situation.

Maybe 'that person' is you and not me, because I didn't say 'yes' or 'no' or give you any information that could be misleading in any way. I just commented on the fact that there are people on both sides of the pine debate, and said what I'd personally do, but that you'd just have to keep researching and see what works for you.

Sorry, I just fail to see where my completely neutral reply has you convinced that I said I'd never ever use pine and you shouldn't either.

EDIT: My comment about cedar is based on seven years spent studying plant biology, not something I heard on the internet. I'd have to see definitive proof that that was harmless before I used it.

Whoa, you seem to be taking this a bit personal... when I said you I meant everyone as group, you know, everyone that replied or may be reading... not just DVirginiana... I quoted your earlier post about the price of news paper... not about your opinion on pine, or cedar...

[DVirginiana]

You just had mine quoted and it wasn't really clear that the only part you meant to apply to me was the bit about pricing. I was kind of confused by that, but it's all good.

[BCS]

Sorry! Did not mean to confuse you... made sense in my mind! Writing is a lot harder then actual speaking

[DVirginiana]

Sorry! Did not mean to confuse you... made sense in my mind! Writing is a lot harder then actual speaking

lol I try to be specific when I'm writing on forums and stuff, but the end result is really just me using more parentheses than any human ever should

[200xth]

I think I am going to try it for my BPs. I use it for my rodents which my snakes do eat and nothing has happened as of yet... "Yet" can be a big word. If anything at all goes wrong, I will remove the pine from the tubs immediately.

This is the best thing you can do. Try it for yourself. There are enough big breeders and experienced keepers using it without issue, so you know your snake will not explode on contact with the pine.

I have everyone on pine now. I like it much better than aspen. Doesn't mold nearly as easily, it's odor protection is far superior to aspen, and it seems to be more absorbent as well. I think since you're giving it a fair shot, you'll be happy with it.