Where do you sell most of your normal hatchlings?

[barbie.dragon]

No, they aren't inherently valuable from an economic standpoint to me, but this does not mean that they aren't valuable for some other reason to others. If my approach to breeding was solely around monetary concern then why would I own a Savannah monitor which has sunk me at least $1k in the hole, and Uroplatus which has sunk me about $5k in the hole?

I am not worried about housing lower end animals because I know that the money I make from others in the clutch aswell as from nephrurus and everything else I own will make up for housing lower end animals until I can find a house for them.

My question about culling was mostly to folks who are doing say pastel spider x spider, where there would be a much higher percentage of normals and low income overall. I really do enjoy my animals and I am willing to breed them to the point of breaking even or even negative a small amount but if they became that much of a burden economically I simply would stop breeding them, downsize, and keep 1-2 of each species I own as pets.

Also about the feeders, using that logic you provided, if I purchased a kingsnake or king cobra would it suddenly be ok for me to euthanize the BPs in that way? I really see no difference between that situation and feeding a rat to a BP.

It all has to do with intention. Crude examples: euthanizing a dog. My family friend euthanized his dog because it was cheaper to get another one. He was fully able to pay the medical bills for the dog. Stamp money. The dog was only a year old vs him euthanizing a dog because she had a problem the vet could not fix and she would not live a good life Example 2: a woman murders a man because she disagreed with his opinion vs her murdering a man that tried to attack her in her home. Example 3: burying a dead dog vs throwing a dead dog into a hole in the ground. The end result of these examples are the same: the woman killed a man, the dog is still euthanized and the dead dog I still in a hole in the ground. But the context or intention behind it is what makes the difference. Culling a normal ball python to feed your other snakes to me is ok. But culling a normal ball python because you don't want to take responsibility for it financially even though you're fully aware of the fact that when you breed certain morphs together you'll get a normal to me is unacceptable.

[RoseyReps]

While *I* would / could never use snakes as a feeder, I would not throw someone that does under a bus. As long as it is humane as it can be, and the animals are well cared for prior, that is the circle of life and no different that feeder rats/mice/fish/guinea pigs/rabbits/chicks etc. No animal life is of greater value than another's. Its a life, period. Though I may personally value say, my dogs life over a rats, who am I to judge those with a pet rat that they love just as deeply?

I am against euthanizing because it is a normal. I am not against euthanizing for the use of food for another animal.

Now...*clears throat* its time...for...
*breaks out into song*
*Lion King*

It's the Circle of Life!
And it moves us alllll
Through despair and hope
Through faith and love
Till we find our place
On the path unwinding
In the Circle The Circle of Life...

*ahem*....sorry

[OctagonGecko729]

That's assuming that cheap things=expendable. What is expendable or not is a subjective value therefor you cannot determine what is and isn't expendable. All because it "makes sense" it doesn't mean it's "logical" or true. You are basing your "logic" purely on anecdotal experiences as am I. This logical fallacy is called hasty generalization, drawing conclusions on population that isn't large enough. Anyways, some people use price as a measurement of value and some don't. But we can safely assume that people who abuse animals regardless I the price are quite cold hearted

I agree, what is expendable is somewhat subjective. For instance if I have 25 trillion dollars, ferraris are very much expendable. Still though toyota corollas are that much more expendable then ferraris to me and more likely just from an economic standpoint to be abused (assuming no personal injury etc), it doesn't mean causally that I will abuse either but the economics are there.

Pretty much everyone can afford a $5 snake to be replaced every day if one died, very few are able to do that with $275-$24,000 snakes. There is also much less incentive to abuse those higher end animals because of the profitability of breeding them. There is also a more likely chance that people who are purchasing more expensive animals which they have to save up to afford are going to protect that investment as much as possible.

[JeRMz]

I intend on giving a "normal" a palace for a home. Normals are gorgeous, in my opinion. I wish they were as cheap, as mentioned above, around here. But, responsibility first! Habitat 100% before BP.
Oh, by the way, I'm JeRMz. The new guy!

[OctagonGecko729]

It all has to do with intention. Crude examples: euthanizing a dog. My family friend euthanized his dog because it was cheaper to get another one. He was fully able to pay the medical bills for the dog. Stamp money. The dog was only a year old vs him euthanizing a dog because she had a problem the vet could not fix and she would not live a good life Example 2: a woman murders a man because she disagreed with his opinion vs her murdering a man that tried to attack her in her home. Example 3: burying a dead dog vs throwing a dead dog into a hole in the ground. The end result of these examples are the same: the woman killed a man, the dog is still euthanized and the dead dog I still in a hole in the ground. But the context or intention behind it is what makes the difference. Culling a normal ball python to feed your other snakes to me is ok. But culling a normal ball python because you don't want to take responsibility for it financially even though you're fully aware of the fact that when you breed certain morphs together you'll get a normal to me is unacceptable.

I think I agree with most of that but the last example is a little foggy and I don't really have the logic worked out in my own head too well. Why would you say that culling to feed a BP to other snakes is ok but culling a BP so you wouldn't have to feed it and so you could pay for mice to feed other snakes is unacceptable? The intention is the same in this example, the point is to feed the kingsnake by getting rid of lower morphs. I'm not saying I'd ever do it, nor have I this entire thread.

[snakesRkewl]

Producing normals to feed other snakes is not the same thing as over producing normals/low end snakes and culling them because you don't want to feed them or you want to feed other more expensive snakes.

Simple fact is if you can't afford to feed them forever you shouldn't be making them.

If you are making them to feed something else, that's called a feeder, nowhere in the same ball park as making them to sell, finding out you cant sell them, and culling them because they cost money to care for.

[RoseyReps]

I think I agree with most of that but the last example is a little foggy and I don't really have the logic worked out in my own head too well. Why would you say that culling to feed a BP to other snakes is ok but culling a BP so you wouldn't have to feed it and so you could pay for mice to feed other snakes is unacceptable? The intention is the same in this example, the point is to feed the kingsnake by getting rid of lower morphs. I'm not saying I'd ever do it, nor have I this entire thread.

I think that is the intention part of it. For example her example of euthanizing a dog, because it was less money or the same to buy a new dog.
You are killing an animal (not you, like YOU but you as in general) to save money. Where / what is that money spent on? Irrelevant. Bottom line is you are killing an animal to save money.
USING said animal to feed another animal, is not the same intention IMO. Now you could argue, well breeding your own, and culling them to feed is saving money, so it's similar / the same. Yes and no, now it seems the hairs begin to be split. We have to draw the line somewhere in our heads, or we end up logically making excuses for things that by themselves are against our beliefs.

Example: I am against taking another humans life. I will take another humans life in defense of my own life, or my family's. Well, if that is the case, someone who is threatening my life...is it then alright to take the life of someone who hits my car with my family in it? They threatened my life, and my family's life, after all. Or what about financially? If my job is the only thing keeping my family with food in their mouths, and someone fires me for unjust reasons, they are threatening my life, and my family's life...so do I have the right to take theirs?

Those are extreme, but you can bridge logical arguments to the point of insanity and inhumanity. You, as a person (we) have to draw the line somewhere. It's that entire "Gray area" people talk about. Nothing is black or white, murder is not always wrong. Killing an animal is not always wrong. There is gray area in every aspect of life, it's up to us as people to judge where our morals draw the line.

I think her meaning was, if you do not financially plan on caring and raising for all of the babies you produce, you shouldn't breed to begin with. This is often the advice given to people who are breeding for the first time. Because, as rare as the case may be, there is always a chance you do not sell your clutch, and you should be able to care for them. If you cannot care for them, you should not pair in the first place.

I probably screwed that up entirely, but my brain went on a road trip so...yea...rambles for all!

[Daybreaker]

When we start breeding we intend to sell to a local pet store, CL, and through word of mouth. It makes no sense (IMO) to cull a perfectly healthy animal that you can't sell simply because you can't sell it. The cost of feeding all those babies, normals or otherwise and fast moving morphs or otherwise, is the cost of breeding. Do it responsibly.

[TessadasExotics]

I am speechless, completely dumbfounded by some of these comments. Really? I think some people should really not be allowed to own or breed animals with the mentalities that they have.

[OctagonGecko729]

I think that is the intention part of it. For example her example of euthanizing a dog, because it was less money or the same to buy a new dog.
You are killing an animal (not you, like YOU but you as in general) to save money. Where / what is that money spent on? Irrelevant. Bottom line is you are killing an animal to save money.
USING said animal to feed another animal, is not the same intention IMO. Now you could argue, well breeding your own, and culling them to feed is saving money, so it's similar / the same. Yes and no, now it seems the hairs begin to be split. We have to draw the line somewhere in our heads, or we end up logically making excuses for things that by themselves are against our beliefs.

Example: I am against taking another humans life. I will take another humans life in defense of my own life, or my family's. Well, if that is the case, someone who is threatening my life...is it then alright to take the life of someone who hits my car with my family in it? They threatened my life, and my family's life, after all. Or what about financially? If my job is the only thing keeping my family with food in their mouths, and someone fires me for unjust reasons, they are threatening my life, and my family's life...so do I have the right to take theirs?

Those are extreme, but you can bridge logical arguments to the point of insanity and inhumanity. You, as a person (we) have to draw the line somewhere. It's that entire "Gray area" people talk about. Nothing is black or white, murder is not always wrong. Killing an animal is not always wrong. There is gray area in every aspect of life, it's up to us as people to judge where our morals draw the line.

I think her meaning was, if you do not financially plan on caring and raising for all of the babies you produce, you shouldn't breed to begin with. This is often the advice given to people who are breeding for the first time. Because, as rare as the case may be, there is always a chance you do not sell your clutch, and you should be able to care for them. If you cannot care for them, you should not pair in the first place.

I probably screwed that up entirely, but my brain went on a road trip so...yea...rambles for all!

I think going into human ethics (morality) is probably stepping in the wrong direction and I disagree that all of those examples are subjective. I will refrain from becoming more tangential though as I'm sure you all will appreciate .

I also do agree with "if you do not financially plan on caring and raising for all of the babies you produce, you shouldn't breed to begin with." and think that as a principle thats pretty sound. With the exception that I still don't get how raising BPs for feeders is "better" then say raising them for compost.

Again, I fully understand peoples empathetic connection to an animal that they keep as a pet but that doesn't make it "wrong" to euthanize, its just a personal preference. Which is still fine and dandy because you do not need to purchase from people that you know practice any kind of euthanasia that you disagree with. I also, when at all possible refrain from purchasing from wholesalers and importers because I have noticed through personal experience a correlation between cheap animals and abuse.

- - - Updated - - -

I am speechless, completely dumbfounded by some of these comments. Really? I think some people should really not be allowed to own or breed animals with the mentalities that they have.

Thats kind of passive aggressive, I would appreciate if you would elaborate, sorry if I have offended you at all.