Super Black Pastel : the risks, the reality, and plans for the future

[hotelvoodoo]

When I started breeding ball pythons, my fiancee and I talked about morphs we'd be really interested in working with in the future. One of the first things that came to mind was the super black pastel. I love solid black snakes and thought that super black pastels were just breathtaking. We picked up a black pastel male, Titus, a perfect specimen, our first year of collecting and he happened to be het for ghost. He's my little angel and a year later we bought him a future girlfriend, nasty little Drusilla, who's a little bug-eyed, but not bad, who's also het for ghost. After we saw the black pastel ghost for the first time we lost our minds with all that orange and lavender, and our dream became the super black pastel ghost, presumably an all deep lavender snake. Well, both of our kids are sizeable and Titus is already hooking up with other gals, but I hesitate to throw him in with Dru.

I've heard about the potential for deformities amongst black pastel offspring, particularly in super black pastels. So my question is: how real are these fears? I mean, plenty of people breed out caramel albinos without kinking issues, even though it can happen. I mean, if it's a 50% shot of a horrible deformity, I wouldn't consider it, but I'm just not sure. You know how it is. You hear the horror stories, not a lot of the positive ones. We already changed our BEL plans this year to avoid a lesser x lesser pairing because of the 50% shot of bug-eyes.

So, I'd love to hear from my black pastel peeps, especially those of you that have produced super black pastels. What's your experience been on the matter?

[jporter617]

i think your ok if you get two diff bloodlines an make them. the t + or caramels kink when you breed siblings back to parents once or twice its ok. 5-6-7 times is when you start getting issues down the gene pool.

ive made super cinnys from a pair of siblings with no issues. healthy babies, its hard to justify kinks from inbreeding or incubation error. i say go for it if you want them

[ClarkT]

I've not tried it yet either, but I'd not hesitate. Every clutch has the chance of having problems, yet we still breed.
Good luck!

[coldbloodaddict]

i think your ok if you get two diff bloodlines an make them. the t + or caramels kink when you breed siblings back to parents once or twice its ok. 5-6-7 times is when you start getting issues down the gene pool.

ive made super cinnys from a pair of siblings with no issues. healthy babies, its hard to justify kinks from inbreeding or incubation error. i say go for it if you want them

Breeding different lines does not make any difference...The issues in Super Blacks and Caramels have nothing to do with inbreeding...the kinking is a genetic deformity that goes with the morph.

OP I suggest not breeding for a Super Black...It's a 50/50 shot at making deformed Supers...

In 2003 I spent $25,000 on a pair of Black Pastels with hopes of making bunches of Super Blacks...After learning of the issues I only tried once and I got a deformed faced, kinked up Super Black!!!

1 out of the 2 very first Super Blacks produced had a cleft pallet...

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[OhhWatALoser]

i think your ok if you get two diff bloodlines an make them. the t + or caramels kink when you breed siblings back to parents once or twice its ok. 5-6-7 times is when you start getting issues down the gene pool.

Breeding different lines is a toss up, you have no idea what genes each snakes holds and how they are going to effect the potential defect super black pastel bring with them. It could be good, it could be bad. If you breed snakes from a line that are not producing the defect or very minimal, you can atleast say your chances are better of not producing the defect. Two years ago, I asked bhb what his defect ratio was on his super cinnys, it was like 2 or 3 out of over 50. Then you might have some people who get it every time, it depends on the snakes your pairing and what genes they hold.

OP the answer is no one can tell you what your chances are, it all depends on the genes of each snake you are pairing. You may produce perfect snakes each time, you may produce defect snakes each time or anywhere inbetween. You know there is risk involved, but if it is your dream snake, I would try one clutch and see how it goes. Lesser x Lesser BEL was my dream snake and I lucked out and got a healthy one , but I knew I could of had a bug eyed or blind snake potentially.

[Neal]

I wanted to do it as well but I won't becasue of the deformities. The kinking isn't as common as the duck billing.

What I would go for if I were you is Cinnamon x Black Pastel. Some can be dark and some kind of have a brownish color. They can vary and I'm not sure what the cause is.

[jporter617]

Breeding different lines does not make any difference...The issues in Super Blacks and Caramels have nothing to do with inbreeding...the kinking is a genetic deformity that goes with the morph.

OP I suggest not breeding for a Super Black...It's a 50/50 shot at making deformed Supers...

In 2003 I spent $25,000 on a pair of Black Pastels with hopes of making bunches of Super Blacks...After learning of the issues I only tried once and I got a deformed faced, kinked up Super Black!!!

1 out of the 2 very first Super Blacks produced had a cleft pallet...

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ok, then how do you explain lines of caramels with no kinks? Spaids reptiles has never had caramels with kinks, in 2003 there were alot less lines of blackpastels im sure. but you made the investment not me, so you must know more about it

[Neal]

ok, then how do you explain lines of caramels with no kinks? Spaids reptiles has never had caramels with kinks, in 2003 there were alot less lines of blackpastels im sure. but you made the investment not me, so you must know more about it

It's nothing to do with certain lines, people have tried breeding non related ones and still get the issues. It's completely random and why do something that you know has issues, that's the point he's trying to make. This is why you don't see super black pastels everywhere and the reason no breeders still try. It's like breeding a sable x spider, can it be done? Yes, they can also in rare cases live but after that it's a slim to none chance of them making it. I think I remember seeing a video of one that made it to a few years but it requires a lot of time and care.

They've never had caramel with kinks that you know of. It's a genetic issue, that's all there is to it. Spiders are genetically known to have wobble, though some don't have it bad while in rare cases others can, it's just completely random.