is pine really bad?

[kitedemon]

I know several professional breeders who have been using pine bedding for their snakes for decades and haven't had any trouble. I think the whole 'pine debate' is a bunch of hooie backed up by a lot of speculation but no actual facts.

MSDS sheets are based on scientific study generally accepted as fact. Can you back up that pine (or any wood) is completely non toxic has no acute effects, in anything other than speculation? Do you have hard fact to make your point?

[MarkS]

MSDS sheets are based on scientific study generally accepted as fact. Can you back up that pine (or any wood) is completely non toxic has no acute effects, in anything other than speculation? Do you have hard fact to make your point?

Would you consider several decades of actual use to be hard fact? Or do you only believe in it if some one has written a paper on it?

[kitedemon]

MarkS,
Hey yes real experience can never be discounted and I would never imply that that is the case. I also take MSDS sheets as extreme cases as well. My point is just this,

All softwoods have phenol to some degree, Pine more than many. Kiln drying pine reduces the amount of oil in the pine and pine oil is the carrier for the phenol.

Pine chips at least in my area come in three 'grades' (all sold under the same name) The lowest is pine wood, bark, saw dust and chain saw like bits. Basically it is branches that are chipped and mill floor sweepings. It is very very strong smelling and is green wood. The next is ends and off cuts little, bark and but lots of saw dust and sanding dust. It is all kiln dried for the most part. The last is just chips it is from kiln dried and has been 'blown' to remove most of the saw dust and fine bits.

My main point is that the first two grades are not healthy for people to be around in long term exposure everyday. ( I know that snakes are not people but at a very base level lungs are lungs and dust in lungs is not good period.) I would make a bit of a guess and say that keeping snakes in very dusty softwood of any kind is not likely a good idea.

the last kind that actually has been produced for animal bedding is likely safe, the amounts of dust and phenols being inside an acceptable level.

The OP stated "so i have a bedding which i havent used yet that said made from bits of pine, spruce and fir. can i use it?" That sounds very much like scrap bits of junk from a shop floor or scrap bin to me and has not been prepared for small animal use it may have ticks or other insects, cedar bits, and lots of dust. That floor grade I can get often has nails and screws in it as well as rags and glue bits varnish bits and everything that you might find on the floor of a busy wood shop, but it is usually free or cheap. To me unless you are sure you are getting a high quality product it is simply not worth the risk.

I don't know any professional breeder whom would ever think to place a breeding snake in such a risky bedding. I would guess that if I shipped a bag of the junk I get sold as pine bedding the first time you found fibreglass bits in it and a screw or two you would never use it either.

Kiln dried dust free pine is ok but are you sure that is what you are buying? As I stated earlier, phenol is a toxic compound in concentration pine repels and kills insects so does Douglas fir, You said aspen as well I have never heard that of aspen but 'round here it is called poplar and is 'junk' wood and is used in fireplaces. Spruce is gummy as all get out. i would not use Douglas fir chips or dust nor spruce for that matter.

Pine is a bit of a wild card and I would be cautious of any mixed species wood chips for that reason alone. High grade pine I am sure is no worse than any other softwood. I hope that clarifies my point.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

WOW.

You know, the pro's on this site never stop amazing me....

I did a search on this exact subject today just because I have ALWAYS wondered how much truth / fiction was involved with the whole dried pine shavings being bad for reptiles. I had always suspected that some scientist probably did some research on pine, and made assumptions that it would be bad for animals.... and then everyone else just assumed it to be true.

Thank you Mark and Wes for stepping up against the masses to state facts. It takes a lot of courage to do that, especially with such a religious subject!

I have been getting dried pine shavings from my local feed store for my rats for years. $6 for 10 cubic feet of it! THAT is a lot of substrate for the $$$! I am happy to say that I just switched every single one of my snake racks over to the pine shavings.

Thanks again guys. You just made my life much easier. I will take 40 years of experience over ANYTHING some science guy (who is probably afraid of snakes) declares as fact.

Mike Cavanaugh



LOL!

Thank you very much Mark and Wilomn for stepping up with the truth