Breeder, Flipper, Worser, Better?

Is one worse than the other? Are either inherently bad?

A flipper buys snakes and resells them without, often but not always, knowing to whom they are sold or what happens to them.

A breeder keeps snakes, maintains them, puts them together to encourage them to procreate and then sells the babies without, often but not always, knowing to whom they are sold or what happens to them.

One the one hand you've got a person purchasing a commodity and reselling it at profit. This person does not have anything to do with the creation of said commodity, they have no moral or ethical obligation to said commodity regaurding it's creation, though they do for it's keeping once ownership has vested in them, the reseller.

To the left, you have the person who IS responsible for the creation of said commodity, in this case baby ball pythons, and yet they, the breeder, are not held in any way, responsible for the eventual living situation of the baby snakes they have sold who would not be alive at all were not humans involved.

Both sell baby snakes. One is just a flipper. One is just a breeder. Both sell baby living creatures. One actually creates these creatures, one buys and sells them.

Heh. See what happens? You start thinking, then you go to wondering and then you hit a wall, throw up your hands and wonder why you wonder at all?

I don't know that there IS a correct answer.

Flippers seem to have only one motivation - profit. Breeders tend to be more interested in the animals first, money afterward. As you stated yourself, breeders maintain the animals. That means caring for and about them.

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Originally Posted by GoFride08

Flippers seem to have only one motivation - profit. Breeders tend to be more interested in the animals first, money afterward. As you stated yourself, breeders maintain the animals. That means caring for and about them.

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Yet, would not a primary motivation of a breeder be to produce that which is sold? And if that is true, how is that different from a flipper? Both are selling babies. One has produced them, one has not. Is the origin so important?

Good thread, Wes. I am going to have to go back to the honesty thing. I also would prefer to purchase from someone I believe selectively bred their animals and put real care into producing a quality snake.

I'll throw another piece into the mix. What about the person who wholesales to the reseller? Where do they fit in this discussion?

Stop making me think hard - ouch! :P Yes, I believe a breeder would tend to care more about placing those precious babies in new homes, and would feel more responsible. To most breeders, these are not commodities or products.

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Originally Posted by GoFride08

Stop making me think hard - ouch! :P Yes, I believe a breeder would tend to care more about placing those precious babies in new homes, and would feel more responsible. To most breeders, these are not commodities or products.

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How many breeders do you suppose have a check list that buyers must pass before allowing them to purchase a baby?

I'm guessing that most breeders sell to anyone who pony's up the dough. If you're a breeder who IS selective about who they sell to, this isn't meant as an insult. In fact, it's not meant for anyone in particular.

I'm thinking most folks can figure it out when it's them in particular I'm referring to when I'm referring to anyone in particular at all.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Yet, would not a primary motivation of a breeder be to produce that which is sold? And if that is true, how is that different from a flipper? Both are selling babies. One has produced them, one has not. Is the origin so important?

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My primary motivations are to: first, breed the combos I want to have more than anything else in life, and second, to produce enough babies that I don't want to keep back, to sell to pay for my breeders' food, and if I'm lucky, to buy new breeders that will get me closer to being able to produce some of those combos I dream about. When I sell babies (always after 4-5 consecutive meals), I always go back and forth with emails asking about the potential purchaser's plans, setup, time in this hobby, etc., so I do know who each snake is going to. But I know that that isn't what you are talking about, and it's probably not a very common thing.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How many breeders do you suppose have a check list that buyers must pass before allowing them to purchase a baby?

I'm guessing that most breeders sell to anyone who pony's up the dough. If you're a breeder who IS selective about who they sell to, this isn't meant as an insult. In fact, it's not meant for anyone in particular.

I'm thinking most folks can figure it out when it's them in particular I'm referring to when I'm referring to anyone in particular at all.

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I think the answer is not a lot. I happen to be one who does (well not really a checklist). It doesn't make me any better than the other guy, but it helps me sleep better at night. I have turned down sales because I wasn't comfortable with the person wanting to buy.

Wow ok I have to agree with Jamie I think that there is a right way and a wrong way to do the resale thing.

With that said resale of CBB babies on the whole sale market, when done with honesty and the same care as one would an animal they bred OK.

Wholesaleing CH or WC stuff and labeling it as Fire(ish) or Mojave-like is in my not someone I will do business with..

I don't have a problem with someone selling a snake that they didn't produce. I have plenty of snakes that I didn't produce that may one day be sold. My only concern with certain folks is that they sell snakes that they have no history on without knowing the seller. There's a thread here where a member shipped her animals to someone on a trade and he listed each animal on CL the next day. That guy is a dirtbag IMO and the "bad" kind of flipper.
Large "flippers" sometimes have a QT period and have the ability to administer medicines as needed. I don't have an issue with them as long as they are honest about it. Almost nothing bugs me as much as someone who claims to produce those animals that just showed up on a FEDEX truck the day before.
I also agree with Ed about the folks who list their fire"ish" normals...almost as much as those listed as "pastel siblings".

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I think the answer is not a lot. I happen to be one who does (well not really a checklist). It doesn't make me any better than the other guy, but it helps me sleep better at night. I have turned down sales because I wasn't comfortable with the person wanting to buy.

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I have as well. I even screen people who are adopting my normal males. I don't have an answer for Wes' original question - as he said - not sure that there is a right answer.

But if I don't know a person through the forums, I do like to know that they are prepared to take on a new baby. I can guarantee that they are feeding consistently for me, so that if they don't feed for their new owner, I can help them figure out why a consistent feeder has gone off feed.

I've got two possible het clown males (being placed as normals) that I have what I consider good homes for, with new keepers who have been sent here to prepare for their babies - but now I'm a little concerned, because these two are VERY snappy babies, and I want their first experiences to be positive. Oh the worries!!!!

Very good questions, Wes.

I've never personally had an issue with someone who buys animals with the intent to resell at a profit....SO LONG AS they are honest and up front about their business model and that the well being of the animals involved take precedent over profit. Of course, we can't always KNOW that such is the case, but we can make judgment calls based on how such a person behaves in general.

The same is true of breeders. Just because someone is breeding the animals doesn't automatically raise them to some higher level of credibility. Breeders can (and do, sometimes!) keep their animals in deplorable conditions and conduct their business with no other motive than pure profit.

Flippers can respect and even love the animals they work with. Breeders can be greedy jerks. What counts is personal integrity and how they care for the animals....not their particular methods of acquiring the animals and passing them on to the public.

I DO agree with Jamie...that when you go through a trusted breeder you know, your chances of getting superior quality animals is much higher because such a breeder is careful and works on always improving the bloodlines of his animals and has detailed histories for all his animals. But morally and ethically speaking, I don't have anything against either business practice.

Regarding the seller's responsibility to insure the animals go to good homes... That's a much harder question. When one just has a few animals to rehome each year...it might not be such a big deal to carefully screen buyers...but what about those who must sell hundreds of babies? What about those who MUST sell a certain number of animals each year just to break even and pay the bills on their facilities? How could they possibly have time to screen each buyer and how could they afford to turn away everyone who might not meet some arbitrary level of acceptability?

Should a car dealer be held responsible for not screening those who come onto his lot and drive away in a new car? What if they get drunk a week later and kill someone in their new car?

In an ideal world, those who are in the business of selling animals would always care more for the animals' well being than their own profit and always be able to know in advance if the animal were being placed into a proper home or not. But, of course, the world is far from ideal....

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Originally Posted by JLC

In an ideal world, those who are in the business of selling animals would always care more for the animals' well being than their own profit and always be able to know in advance if the animal were being placed into a proper home or not. But, of course, the world is far from ideal....

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An excellent point.

But it sort of begs the question, "why then, do so many place breeders on pedestals and flippers in the dung heap when there is not any evidence to prove that either belongs where placed?"

I'm not really referring to big names with well established well deserved reputations nor the scumbags we all see at most of the shows we go to. I am referring to those like members here, like myself, or maybe not so much like myself but someone less known but doing more business.

Is it just a lot of assumptions or pipedreams or wishful thinkings? Speaking only of honest dealers, be they breeders or flippers, why does it matter what the origin of the snake is?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Speaking only of honest dealers, be they breeders or flippers, why does it matter what the origin of the snake is?

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With honest dealers, I don't think that it does matter.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

An excellent point.

But it sort of begs the question, "why then, do so many place breeders on pedestals and flippers in the dung heap when there is not any evidence to prove that either belongs where placed?"
....
Is it just a lot of assumptions or pipedreams or wishful thinkings? Speaking only of honest dealers, be they breeders or flippers, why does it matter what the origin of the snake is?

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I ask these questions anytime I see someone start slamming someone else as a "flipper" for no other reason than the mere practice of it. Never get a satisfactory answer, either.

How about those who slam anyone who resells animals.. yet sells their OWN babies to a wholesaler? If you supply the 'flipper' then aren't you also a flipper by proxy?

I have no issues with any HONEST seller of animals. Whether you bred it, or you bought it. If you tell me the truth about the animal, even if it's "What you see is what you get", then I'm satisfied in your dealings. If I want to know more than you can tell me about an animal, I'll pass and look elsewhere. Breeder or seller.

I think the answer to Wes' question is not found in the activity but in the person. If the person is a breeder who does not adequately care for the animal. They are wrong. If a flipper propperly qt's the animals for health check and feeding then sellit they are all right. Then so i don't have to type so much use your imagination and reverse the senario.