Spider wobble

I have this spider hatchling I've only had her for about a week and a half, and I was wondering how bad can the spider head wobble really be?:confused: I've never actually seen a spider do it in person until now and im not sure if its just the wobble or something else possibly wrong with her. :( I've seen her do from little wiggling motions with her head like she just cant hold it still to moving around with her head always tilted to the side and sometimes turning upside down briefly, are all these varying degrees of the spider wobble?

Yes. It is.

Yes. I have a spider that doesnt have a wobble at all and i am still trying to see if there is a head tilt, but i dont see one myself. I seen some with a bad tilt and wobble but its normal and the offspring may or may not have it nothing to do with the parents condition...

Correct me if i am wrong. But this is from thing i have read and seen myself.

Some are really bad, some are mild, some dont show it at all for a couple years then will start out of the blue. its extremely variable. almost all spiders have it or develope it within a few shed cycles. I have 1 spider female that doesnt wobble at all... everytime I get her out to check her out I never know what to expect.. cuzz she could start wobbling anytime. sometimes it takes a few years to happen.

She is only about a 3 week old hatchling but does anybody know if the wobble can be bad enough to affect their ability to eat? She has fed before I got her and as I said its only been a week since Ive had her, I've tried feeding her once, she struck and missed and then just proceeded to wander the cage her tub seemingly in a daze so I'll let her be for a while before I try again but can the wobble hinder them from feeding properly?

I always thought the head wobble was fromt he super spider. or at least the research I have done on them.

If you breed spider to spider it seems to happen more often. but spider to normal and they don't seem to show it much.

Mine will be ready to breed next year and i plan to test this out :)

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I always thought the head wobble was fromt he super spider. or at least the research I have done on them.

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Says who? I would love to see the info you found during those research.

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If you breed spider to spider it seems to happen more often. but spider to normal and they don't seem to show it much.

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Again based on what study? :confused:

To date, no one has created a super spider that we know of. ;)

super spider? Never heard of it... lol

some spiders have it severe I have seen a spider head go crazy and look as if it was going to tie its self in a knot while some have it so mild its almost as if there is nothing wrong with it they vary

Hey Kyote, what snake is that in your Avatar? Any pics of it?


Dave

at the very least the snake moves very jerky and it typically gets worse when its stressed or excited either from feeding or handling

Thankyou to everyone for the replies and info, I really hope I can get her eating so I can stop worring about her spinning and such making her crazy. I just dont really know how long a baby her size can go without eating before I should worry,but I'll try not to get too worked up so soon about it.

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Originally Posted by EmberBall

Hey Kyote, what snake is that in your Avatar? Any pics of it?


Dave

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Thats an unproven burgundy, one of my dinkers.The smaller pic was one for color comparison without flash, that was taken while they were breeding so don't worry they arent housed together :P
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i1...9/SD531455.jpg
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i1...9/SD531435.jpg

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Says who? I would love to see the info you found during those research.

Again based on what study? :confused:

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I never said it was solid info

and I am very much aware there is no super form

It's simply a theory I have come up with. The whole point behind a THEORY is there are no hard facts. which is why I need to prove it out one way or the other. The wobble is genetic though. if mom and dad have it bad. babies have it worse.

Shawn

I am not sure about the genetics about it, but I know that my spider has had no issues as of yet with a wobble... I think i see a tilt in her, but that is about it...She has since eaten twice for me and has had no issues in that department and she is only about six weeks old.

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Originally Posted by takagari

I never said it was solid info

and I am very much aware there is no super form

It's simply a theory I have come up with. The whole point behind a THEORY is there are no hard facts. which is why I need to prove it out one way or the other. The wobble is genetic though. if mom and dad have it bad. babies have it worse.

Shawn

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No, this has not fleshed out as true. Mild wobblers can and do throw train-wrecks and train-wrecks have thrown mild wobblers.

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I always thought the head wobble was fromt he super spider.

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If you knew there was no super spider, than the comment above makes zero sense.

My spider showed no sign of wobble at all for the first 8 months or so then started wobbling a little.Then is started wobbling more. Now, a couple of years later it often spends a great deal of time with it's head upside down.

I have 2 spiders one a little over 3 years the other its about 2 years both of mine are fine. From research i have done they dont grow into it ! They either have it or they dont ! :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If you knew there was no super spider, than the comment above makes zero sense.

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I seem to recall someone talking about a Superspider like a week ago. Doh it looked just like a normal spider only diffrence was that it produced all spiders.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=super+spider

Link to the mentioned tread

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Originally Posted by dsirkle

My spider showed no sign of wobble at all for the first 8 months or so then started wobbling a little.Then is started wobbling more. Now, a couple of years later it often spends a great deal of time with it's head upside down.

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Yikes -- that's scary O.o Especially since the males of this morph are known for breeding so young ... If someone was hoping to "breed out" the wobble trait, knowing that it can manifest so late in life would make it mighty difficult.

Of course, from all that's been said it sounds like "breeding it out" may not be possible ...

I took my female spider to an educational demo this past week -- two of them -- and she did fine. I was sort of wondering if she might start to wobble, being in a somewhat stressful environment, but nope -- no wobble, no loops, nothin' funky. Fingers crossed that she stays that way ... And that she passes that steadiness on to her offspring!

I'm hoping theres a chance they can grow out of it, even a little,with my little girl doing all this looping and and tilting and twisting andwhatnot I'm wondering can it get any worse since shes so young from the start of it:(

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Originally Posted by Paul88

I seem to recall someone talking about a Superspider like a week ago. Doh it looked just like a normal spider only diffrence was that it produced all spiders.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=super+spider

Link to the mentioned tread

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That link still doesn't conclude that there is the existence of a super spider. They have been bred for a long time, no one has conclusively proven a super spider yet.

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Originally Posted by kyote19

I'm hoping theres a chance they can grow out of it, even a little,with my little girl doing all this looping and and tilting and twisting andwhatnot I'm wondering can it get any worse since shes so young from the start of it:(

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Yes, some do grow out of it. My male was held back by his breeder because he was described as a train wreck (before he had his first meals). Today, he'll take your fingers off when you feed him, and after getting a few meals in him stopped displaying that behavior. Conversely, there are spiders sent out as babies with no wobbles that develop horrible spinning when they get excited as they get older.

All spiders carry the wobble gene, they're one of the most out crossed mutations and no one has bred it out of them yet. Yes, I know there are people who swear that theirs don't, but look at pictures of most spiders. Almost all show their head cocked slightly, like a puppy looking at you with curiosity that you don't see in other mutations as consistently.

People need to stop being so fearful of the wobble, and if you love spiders, embrace it as part of their make-up. It doesn't affect their ability to eat, grow, shed, defecate and breed.

I love my spiders. I have 2 females and a male, and I'm adding another male soon (I'm starting to add back-up males of each morph I have).

My spider when I got it was three weeks old and did not wobble at all but now I've noticed when my male seems to get nervous I see it. Its not horrible but its there none the less. I still love him even though hes mean as hell :cool:

Kyote, when you get a clutch from that snake, post some pics and let me know. It looks alot like my original Sulfur female.

Dave

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Originally Posted by rabernet

If you knew there was no super spider, than the comment above makes zero sense.

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Again why I said that "I" thought. at no point did I ever sy that for 100% there was a super form. just what I feel.

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Originally Posted by takagari

Again why I said that "I" thought. at no point did I ever sy that for 100% there was a super form. just what I feel.

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I'm really not trying to argue with you - I'm genuinely interested in what makes you feel that there's a super form?

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That link still doesn't conclude that there is the existence of a super spider. They have been bred for a long time, no one has conclusively proven a super spider yet.

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I might be wrong but in the Super spider tread if you follow the links LGL Posted you get to this tread:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=53588&page=3

And if every singel egg that male produces turns up spider, and it keeps doing so for the next few years to really prove it. Then that would be a Super spider?

My friend and I were looking at a baby spider and we were barely able to see the wobble but we haven't seen enough spiders in person to know for sure, I have dealt with plenty of normal adults and pastels and such but am hesitant to add a spider to our personal collection cause of the wobble issue. I am worried about picking one that will grow to be a "train wreck". By the sounds of it you just pick one that has little to no wobble and hope for the best. The one we were looking at was an absolutely stunning female but I prefer to research before I jump into things. Also given that it is from the spider gene any morphs containing spider would also carry the risk of a wobble, or do other morph lessen it as I only see it discussed with plain spiders.

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Originally Posted by Paul88

And if every singel egg that male produces turns up spider, and it keeps doing so for the next few years to really prove it. Then that would be a Super spider?

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Well technically, a het spider can produce 100% spider offspring for its full breeding life. It's just very unlikely.

No matter how compelling 100s of spider babies would be, the only conclusive evidence is a genetic test.

What I've always wondered is why spider is classified as co-dom instead of dominant, if no super form has been proven.

Co-dom? everywhere Ive read about genes, I always see spider classified as dominant.

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Originally Posted by Danounet

Co-dom? everywhere Ive read about genes, I always see spider classified as dominant.

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yeah upon further inspection, I may have misremembered that...

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Originally Posted by kazboots

My friend and I were looking at a baby spider and we were barely able to see the wobble but we haven't seen enough spiders in person to know for sure, I have dealt with plenty of normal adults and pastels and such but am hesitant to add a spider to our personal collection cause of the wobble issue. I am worried about picking one that will grow to be a "train wreck". By the sounds of it you just pick one that has little to no wobble and hope for the best. The one we were looking at was an absolutely stunning female but I prefer to research before I jump into things. Also given that it is from the spider gene any morphs containing spider would also carry the risk of a wobble, or do other morph lessen it as I only see it discussed with plain spiders.

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Yes, spider combos also seem to have the wobble as well.

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Originally Posted by Paul88

I might be wrong but in the Super spider tread if you follow the links LGL Posted you get to this tread:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...t=53588&page=3

And if every singel egg that male produces turns up spider, and it keeps doing so for the next few years to really prove it. Then that would be a Super spider?

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That's a very small sampling (10 total eggs) to make any conclusive assumptions about whether Sam is a super spider or not. I don't remember seeing any posts from Teresa having bred Sam this past season. Perhaps she can chime in on whether he was bred in 2008/2009 season or not?

Call me skeptical, but I find it very hard to believe that with all the spiders out there, only one person has a super spider and posted about it (and even then, the 10 eggs are not conclusive evidence - further breeding would need to be done to see if that's all that Sam throws).

If this fault spreads into other morphs that are bred to spiders, why would they continue to breed?

I have investment quality pitbulls and have done more research on proper kennel practices than I care to mention, as I want to start my own one day, and if a fault like this appeared, that would be the last litter thrown out of the dogs that produced it. Plus the puppies would be spayed and neutered and sold strictly as pets in order to keep the bloodlines pure.

Why would you guys knowingly put this wobble gene out there? Im just wondering

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Originally Posted by STEW

If this fault spreads into other morphs that are bred to spiders, why would they continue to breed?

I have investment quality pitbulls and have done more research on proper kennel practices than I care to mention, as I want to start my own one day, and if a fault like this appeared, that would be the last litter thrown out of the dogs that produced it. Plus the puppies would be spayed and neutered and sold strictly as pets in order to keep the bloodlines pure.

Why would you guys knowingly put this wobble gene out there? Im just wondering

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It doesn't spread into other morphs (like a pastel doesn't get it because it's father was a spider and mother was a pastel). If it's a combo that includes the spider gene (like a bumblebee) then it can also have the wobble.

It also depends on your definition of "fault". It's well known that spiders wobble. It's not going to be bred out of them. I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I love spiders, even with their quirkiness. I don't personally see it as a fault. The animal is not unhealthy, it eats, drinks, sheds, defecates and breeds.

Someone could say that the broad head of a pit is a fault, or the fight instinct is a fault of the breed and ask why you would keep putting that out there?

A spider isn't for everyone. If it's not something that you can personally deal with, there are so many other choices out there in mutations! That's what's so wonderful with 60 identified base mutations.

I can tell you this after having produce a few spider over the last couple of years, and owning spiders and even combos that all of these things have been covered discussed and even tried.

Why do spiders wobble? No clue I find it interesting I can tell you that as long as it eats, drinks, shed, poops, and pees it's healthy.

People have gotten so use to seeing the "normal" Ball python behavior that the wobble put's them off. If you think of it as part of the mutation and not an issue with the mutation then there's no issue.

All I saying is people are perfectly content with skin pigment mutations why is a motor function tweak like the wobble so hard to except.

Its just part of the spider. Like it or leave it..As for me I love spiders and would have racks of them if I could

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I can tell you this after having produce a few spider over the last couple of years, and owning spiders and even combos that all of these things have been covered discussed and even tried.

Why do spiders wobble? No clue I find it interesting I can tell you that as long as it eats, drinks, shed, poops, and pees it's healthy.

People have gotten so use to seeing the "normal" Ball python behavior that the wobble put's them off. If you think of it as part of the mutation and not an issue with the mutation then there's no issue.

All I saying is people are perfectly content with skin pigment mutations why is a motor function tweak like the wobble so hard to except.

Its just part of the spider. Like it or leave it..As for me I love spiders and would have racks of them if I could

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I love all spiders and combos, and I think thats where my collections is going! :gj:

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Originally Posted by Danounet

I love all spiders and combos, and I think thats where my collections is going! :gj:

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You wont be sorry...:banana:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Someone could say that the broad head of a pit is a fault, or the fight instinct is a fault of the breed and ask why you would keep putting that out there?

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You are now speaking on things you do not know..... I will leave it at that.



I was just wondering. Ive personally never seen a spider in person so I dont really know what this wobble even looks like but if I had a snake that was chillen with its head upside down, I would think something is wrong...... Like it had down syndrome or something. I mean they look cool but this is a fault in the genes or they would not do it.... something is not lining up properly for this to happen or all ball pythons would do it....... am i wrong?

Just my two cents on this subject. Anyone who claims to have a spider with ZERO wobble either doesn't know what to look for, hasn't had the snake long enough, or doesn't pay very close attention to the snake.

Pretty much just like everything else in the world, when something is different then the norm, people automatically assume there is something "wrong" with the snake. In the case of the Spider Ball Python, I think this couldn't be further from the truth.

I have no studies to back this up, it is only based on my personal experience. Spiders have wobbles. They also tend to be some of the strongest eaters, and some of the best breeders. When holding a spider I think there is no doubt that they have a different personality then any other morph I have held... and that is certainly a good thing.

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Originally Posted by STEW

Why would you guys knowingly put this wobble gene out there? Im just wondering

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Because if your going to own a spider your going to have the wobble. If your going to breed spiders your going to produce wobblers. Not every body is ok with that and that is fine. There are loads of different morphs out there to pick from..And no law says you have to own a spider.

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Originally Posted by STEW

You are now speaking on things you do not know..... I will leave it at that.



I was just wondering. Ive personally never seen a spider in person so I dont really know what this wobble even looks like but if I had a snake that was chillen with its head upside down, I would think something is wrong...... Like it had down syndrome or something. I mean they look cool but this is a fault in the genes or they would not do it.... something is not lining up properly for this to happen or all ball pythons would do it....... am i wrong?

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Exactly! I know I don't know anything about pits - thus the analogy. You don't know much about the spider mutation, other than what you've read. That makes my anaology a fair analogy. If someone were to make incorrect assumptions that something was a "fault" with your pits with no hands on experience with pits, you would take issue with that. Just as I take issue with you making incorrect assumptions that the wobble is some sort of fault, when you've never worked with or seen a spider in person.

None of my spiders chill with their head upside down. They chill like any other ball python does. What they do is have a slight wobble to their head at times (like Parkinsons) - usually when they are excited (feeding time). They also lose their balance at times when stretching their heads up to the top of their tub and topple over (in slow motion).

If I handed any one of mine to you to handle, it behaves just like any other ball python does - you'd swear it didn't have a wobble. I see signs of a wobble late at night (when exploring the upper part of the tub) and right after eating.

Spiders also have a reputation for being one of the more outgoing of the morphs as well.

My female spider has a slight wobble. When she is preparing to strike it looks like she is doing the truffle shuffle. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Someone could say that the broad head of a pit is a fault, or the fight instinct is a fault of the breed and ask why you would keep putting that out there?

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EXACTLY what I was going to say.

I always get more knowledge on a subject im interested in by asking retarded questions or stirring up a lil trouble.....seems like if the right buttons are pushed, mass knowledge comes flying in from all directions and I get schooled up fairly quickly.....get it

Anyway, an obvious fault in a dog, would be cow hocks..... This is genetic and does not affect their ability to eat, poop, and all that other stuff that the wobble in spiders doesnt affect either. However, this is a fault, and would not be bred into any top notch bloodlines...... It doesnt take away from the character of the dog.

Pitbulls, by nature, are not fighters, though they will not back down if pushed into a corner..... this is not a bad virtue in a dog. People that teach their pits to fight and make them aggresive are in the wrong.

The issue with the spider, is that the wobble trait cannot be bred out of them as it is tied in with the spider gene itself. So if you want the spider look or the combos that spiders create, you must then acknowledge that you will have to deal with the wobble.

And you also must remember that morphs are nothing more than MUTATIONS, so inherently they are all flawed or faulted as you put it. ;)

Makes sense..... I guess I would have to see what this wobble actually looks like to come to a conclusion on whether or not I could deal with it or not. To each their own.

Is this the only mutation with side effects?

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Originally Posted by STEW

Makes sense..... I guess I would have to see what this wobble actually looks like to come to a conclusion on whether or not I could deal with it or not. To each their own.

Is this the only mutation with side effects?

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No...Caramel Albinos have kinking issues...Super Cinny/Black Pastels have duck billing issues...I'm sure there are a couple others too.