Already breeding, but not enough...

I have breeding rats for about a year now, but now that my bp collection has grown in size and numbers I am going to have to expand. I produce WAY more mice than I can use so that project is good, but I need some opinions on what and how many racks/breeders you guys think I should build to give me what I need (I plan to build something tomorrow).

Right now I have 14 bp's. 3 are taking large rats, 3 are taking smalls, and 8 are taking mediums. More production than I need is better than less.

I only have one rack for rats so far. It is a 7 high concrete tub rack. It has 1.2 or 1.3 in 4 tubs, 1 weaner tub, 1 holdback tub and 1 empty.

I have watched all of the RDR youtube vids., and love the way he is set up. My thinking is bringing me to believe that I should use my current rack for weans and rest for moms, and I should build a 12 tub jumbo litter pan breeder rack w/ 1.5 each. Does this sound right? Also, how many birthing tubs would you recommend for this number if you agree? would a 24 tubber like my mice racks be enough or not? Any help woud be appreciated as I would like to build at least 1 rack tomorrow.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g6...t/DSC00805.jpg

sounds like you got the right idea....love the racks is ther a DIY some where or did you just watch Rdr vids till you got it right?:gj:

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Originally Posted by chromeitout

I have breeding rats for about a year now, but now that my bp collection has grown in size and numbers I am going to have to expand. I produce WAY more mice than I can use so that project is good, but I need some opinions on what and how many racks/breeders you guys think I should build to give me what I need (I plan to build something tomorrow).

Right now I have 14 bp's. 3 are taking large rats, 3 are taking smalls, and 8 are taking mediums. More production than I need is better than less.

I only have one rack for rats so far. It is a 7 high concrete tub rack. It has 1.2 or 1.3 in 4 tubs, 1 weaner tub, 1 holdback tub and 1 empty.

I have watched all of the RDR youtube vids., and love the way he is set up. My thinking is bringing me to believe that I should use my current rack for weans and rest for moms, and I should build a 12 tub jumbo litter pan breeder rack w/ 1.5 each. Does this sound right? Also, how many birthing tubs would you recommend for this number if you agree? would a 24 tubber like my mice racks be enough or not? Any help woud be appreciated as I would like to build at least 1 rack tomorrow.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g6...t/DSC00805.jpg

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to increase would require more info

but with the info provided, I would suggest switching as many of your mice eating snakes over to rat pups if you can...

down sizing your mouse breeding and increasing your rat breeding.

I would increase the colony sizes in the concrete mixing tubs and personally...in any situation where large rats are needed...I would do away with the birthing rack...
Turn your birthing rack into a grow out rack...

purpose of a birthing rack is to allow mothers time to rest...in a production set up resting is bad. The more they produce continuosly, the quicker they will grow and the fatter they will get at a younger age...(these are your larges you will eventually be feeding)


Does each snake only eat one rat at the given size? How often do you feed them? how many mice do you have in a colony?

There is not a DIY for these mouse racks specifically, I just looked at a bunch of them and built what I thought was best for me. Although, I did use a DIY (can't find link right now) to build the rat rack a couple years back (was used for a mouse rack then:rolleyes:).

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

Does each snake only eat one rat at the given size? How often do you feed them? how many mice do you have in a colony?

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Yes, they only eat 1 rat each per week. It is possible that I could feed more to them, but I haven't fully got the hang of how much and how often is too much and too often for bp's yet. Most of my collection are corn snakes, thus the need to produce alot of mouse pinks-hoppers. I guess I could try changing all of my adults over to rats, but I have to get them going first. As far as the mice, I have between 1.3 and 1.8 per tub in one whole rack (1.8's are for freezing pinks for the hatchlings). The other rack is nothing but weaners and grow outs (+/- 25 per tub). Also, I'm the sole supplier of a local pet store for their mice (and will be rats as well when I get them going), so I can't really drop any production on the mice. I just need to build whatever I need to expand the rats.

Also, a little more info (in case it matters)... All of the bps eat live or pk (not f/t), so I need to have enough of the "right size" live each week to feed them.

wrong name...

RDR has his set up with the breeders in the litter pans, and the mothers raising in small pans. The only thing I have against his set up, is he is using mouse breeding tubs as female nursing racks, and these are incredibly short and cramped.

I would use the concrete as breeding, and the litter pans as nursing. It's how we do it and it works out well, without leaving the female and her young hardly able to turn around.

RDR has a lot of videos on how he does it. He puts girls in to breed, then he pulls them into the nursing tubs, and when they wean he puts them back in to breed.

I must point out, there is no evidence to support that a female bred back to back (i.e., not removed from males, litter every 3-4 weeks) will grow larger on a linear scale with the increase in her litters. Female rats will grow based on genetics, I can't say in all of my readings that I have ever come across his idea or anything to support it.

I like the RDR method far better than allowing females to have a litter every 3-4 weeks. Some people do it this way though, which I believe is what Suzuki is referring to. (I think, I'm unsure of what he does). I personally disagree with that method,... call it the animal lover in me.

I agree that the mice trays are a bit narrow for nursing (9 1/2 x 21 1/2 x 3 1/2). The tubs that I use in my mice racks are 15 1/2 x 18 1/2 x 4. Do you think this will be appropriate? They are the same footprint as the Van Ness tubs, (and both will fit my current racks) but not as deep. I can get these locally for $3 each and have no idea where to get the van ness ones without paying shipping.

I guess you're right about the concrete tubs being the way to go. I only have 1.3 in my concrete tubs, but I feel 1.5 would still be fine, however 1.5 in a jumbo litter pan would be a little cramped.

Ok, so lets assume the litter pans I'm currently using are sufficient for birthing/nursing single moms, and the concrete ones are what I will use for breeding, weaning and holding extra moms. It works out well to have the litter pan racks 8 high x 3 wide (24 tubs), which will be room for 24 moms to give birth and nurse up to weaning. The concrete tubs 1 wide x 7 tall (7 tubs) will give me 7 male and 35 female breeders. Then 1 more concrete rack would give me 7 tubs to use for weaners, hold backs, and extra moms. Does this seem like it will produce over enough to fill my needs? Is this what you would do or should I have more or less of something?

That sounds like you will have more rats than you need LOL. You'll do very well like that. Yes, and those pan sizes sound great too. Although, it sounds like you are going for 48 females total, or 24 females total? If 24, you wont need 24 nursing tubs, since you probably wont have every female popping at the same time. :p

But yea, I think you'll be fine with that set up. :gj:

Women/females normally get bigger after giving birth...add to the fact the limited available activity given in this situation, and them getting bigger/fatter is inevitable.

IBuild more of the concrete tub racks....

use some space for grow out racks...

optimum production would be to cycle your breeders out at 8-12 months old as larges, some of the grow outs ate 3-4 months as mediums and the rest as needed.

I don't understand the logic of trying to be "humane" to these animals since you are doing nothing that doesn't come naturally (they naturally will breed back to back in a wild colony situation, hence the expression "breeding like rats.") and unless you are starving them or making them live captive in their own refuse...you are being humane. Ultimately they animals will be killed one way or another to feed another. I can't figure any form of dying is fun or happy.

back on topic.....

1.4 is ideal in the concrete tub...you can swing 1.5 but fighting sometimes occurs from crowding....

at 1.4 or bigger, keep a close eye on weaning....you will be producing a high rate of animals per tub, so older rats will bully out younger ones for milk. So once their eyes are open, move them to allow new pinks to be able to feed.


pinky mice....I run 1.8 in the litter pan racks. no issues if they have constant access to food and water. Mice will kill their young quickly if they feel they can not support them.

I supply pet shops, individuals and myself...when you become a supplier....you worry more about production, sizes, and quality than you do pet life qualities....

they need to be fed, watered, not bullied and not live in soiled conditions that will cause them harm.


also if you supply someone....any escapees are contaminated...

if you want to feed them to your own private stuff...fine....but they never re-enter a colony nor do they go to your customers. Great way to bring in poisons, mites/fleas etc...

Thanks for the replies from the two of you. You both seem to recommend very different methods, and RDR's is also totally different from either of those (I know that there are many ways to skin a cat, or breed a rat:))

Suzuki, I believe that you are stating that you keep 1.4 per concrete tub and never move male or females, even for birthing/nursing, correct? This is basically what I've been doing for a year and for some reason I do not get a good production rate... eaten babies, females that just never get pregnant, etc.

And Littleindiangirl, I read your posts in the sticky and am somewhat confused about your method as well. You talk about the cycle of moving males from one female to the next every two weeks, but you also state that you use concrete tubs with 1.3 I believe. Could you clarify a bit for me? If you move a male on a cycle of 2 weeks through 0.3 tubs, are you letting the females all give birth in the same concrete tub? But if you do only have 1 female per tub like the graph shows what happens if one of the females doesn't get pregnant in the two weeks allowed... you just don't have the litter that week that you are counting on?

I will have to say that I like things about all three systems, and I can also see potential problems with each. (The following statements are made assuming that I understand how your systems work). I think that Suzuki's is the simplest with less moving and sorting and not as many different kinds of racks, and also is not feeding females and taking up space during weeks of rest, however this is basically what I've been doing with poor results for some reason. RDR's seems that he would produce the most amount of pregnant rats per week because the moms stay in the breeding bins until they are pregnant and then moved into a safe (however small) bin to give birth and nurse, but with this system there is no way to keep track of how old each female is or if she ever does get pregnant at all. Littleindian girl, I like yours because if one female is kept per bin it would be very easy to keep track of who's producing and how old they are, but it seems that this would take up alot of space and if a female missed getting pregnant or had a low number in her litter your numbers would be greatly affected that week.

Ok, so I over analyze everything I do, but it usually pays off for me. If I have incorrectly assumed anything about either of your setups I apologize and ask you to please correct me. Thanks again.

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And Littleindiangirl, I read your posts in the sticky and am somewhat confused about your method as well. You talk about the cycle of moving males from one female to the next every two weeks, but you also state that you use concrete tubs with 1.3 I believe. Could you clarify a bit for me? If you move a male on a cycle of 2 weeks through 0.3 tubs, are you letting the females all give birth in the same concrete tub? But if you do only have 1 female per tub like the graph shows what happens if one of the females doesn't get pregnant in the two weeks allowed... You just don't have the litter that week that you are counting on?

Littleindian girl, I like yours because if one female is kept per bin it would be very easy to keep track of who's producing and how old they are, but it seems that this would take up alot of space and if a female missed getting pregnant or had a low number in her litter your numbers would be greatly affected that week.

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I'm not sure where you read that I move the males, please link me maybe?

I do it much like RDR. The males get 1-3 (or 4) females in each breeding tub. The females can be rotated each week through the males like RDR does it, or left in with one male the entire 3 weeks they breed.

After she has been with him for three weeks, she is pulled and put in a maternity tub and nurses by herself until she weans. Rinse and repeat.

I always keep females by themselves, I like to have complete control and know what females are better at production and nursing. I also record how many pinks from each female. This way I hold back grow up females from high production lines.

Missing a litter is just something to deal with if you are using a tight schedule and minimum number of females. Obviously if you have room to spare, throw in more than you need. You can always gas and freeze extra!

Seperating them works much better. I breed rats for myself and others, and when I first started I was using the harlem method and realized it never worked out well. Just use your concrete tub rack as the breeder rack and use a birthing rack for the females. I keep 1.6 in the breeder tubs but will do 1.8 if Im running short on space. Its funny that when I started I was doing everything opposite of what I do now, such as breeding methods and feeding.

I apoligized in advance but will do so again, I'm sorry:oops:. http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52894 This is where I got the idea that you were doing it that way. Anyway, so if you do house multiple females together and move them to birthing bins how do you keep up with which female is doing what? Surely your memory alone doesn't keep you on track just off of the appearance of each one (well, mine wouldn't:))

Sorry for double posting, but Rocko, I know what you mean about changing methods... I laugh when I think about how I used to breed mice, and now it runs like clockwork!

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Originally Posted by chromeitout

I apoligized in advance but will do so again, I'm sorry:oops:. http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52894 This is where I got the idea that you were doing it that way. Anyway, so if you do house multiple females together and move them to birthing bins how do you keep up with which female is doing what? Surely your memory alone doesn't keep you on track just off of the appearance of each one (well, mine wouldn't:))

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Just check them, you should be able to tell if a rat is pregnant. I dont really keep track of them its just pull them out let them raise the babies and then back into the breeder rack.

I understand the "check them" thing, but what I'm talking about is keeping track of the individuals that continually have low numbers and should be replaced by new females, due to age or whatever. There is no way that I could remember on looks alone of a particular female that she is a poor producer in a rotating community. I totally understand how the moving around part works, but the question about records is regarding efficiency.

Edit: Also, if there are no records kept in this type of setup you could very possibly have females in the breeding colony taking up space that never get pregnant at all and you wouldn"t know it. You would just check her, see that she wasn't pregnant and put her back in there until next week when you would do the same thing again.

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Originally Posted by chromeitout

Thanks for the replies from the two of you. You both seem to recommend very different methods, and RDR's is also totally different from either of those (I know that there are many ways to skin a cat, or breed a rat:))

Suzuki, I believe that you are stating that you keep 1.4 per concrete tub and never move male or females, even for birthing/nursing, correct? This is basically what I've been doing for a year and for some reason I do not get a good production rate... eaten babies, females that just never get pregnant, etc.

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what is their diet?

No, only movement is removing young or for cleaning purposes

I currently have approx 20 racks and produce 800-1100 a week. My record is 1700 in a week.

My tubs are 1.4 with a few exceptions that ended with 1.5 in them and produce...
No clue how...just did and not changing it until they are retired.

I use 5 grow out racks and females are replaced with any pregnant looking females from the grow out rack once they start showing.

Basically, I combine the expected mothers with a male...when I get 8, I replace the females from 2 tubs to a quarantine cage (which is basically the empty spots on the grow out rack.)

These are retired breeders...they end up as food if the pet shops won't take them...but jumbo rats are pretty sought after here.

I only record output per week per tub. Less than 40/month and they all get replaced

I use auto water and their feed is plentiful

Normally I only check food/water every other day....and clean once a week.

Cleaning I use kiln pine and dust the bottom of the pans with baking soda. Baking soda keeps down odor and helps the litter not stick to the pan.

I use mazuri 6f

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Originally Posted by suzuki4life

Basically, I combine the expected mothers with a male...when I get 8, I replace the females from 2 tubs to a quarantine cage (which is basically the empty spots on the grow out rack.)

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?

I use 6F as well. So, you have 20 racks of 7 tubs = 140 tubs that produce 1000 a week?

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Originally Posted by chromeitout

I apoligized in advance but will do so again, I'm sorry:oops:. http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52894 This is where I got the idea that you were doing it that way. Anyway, so if you do house multiple females together and move them to birthing bins how do you keep up with which female is doing what? Surely your memory alone doesn't keep you on track just off of the appearance of each one (well, mine wouldn't:))

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Ahh, I suppose the chart at first glance can make it look like the males are moving around, but it's actually the females that are moved into the males tubs. :P Look closer, males cant move around if a few different females are with him for 3 weeks.

I do personally keep track of all of my rats, what they look like etc. I am anal that way, I certainly dont expect anyone else to do it this way. I try not to duplicate rats with the same pattern, color, ears, coat.

However, I do have a non toxic, water proof, permanent marker to write on their tails or fur for identification. It works that way too.

Labs generally do ear marking, ear tagging, tattooing, or dying of the fur/writing on tails to keep track. Writing on tails is just easier and heck of a lot cheaper, with no risk of infection. I can't think of anyone who does it like me. :oops:

But, back on point, depending on how you want to do it, if you do like ralph, he moves the females down and through the males tubs every week, so by the time they reach the 3rd or 4th tub, they should finally be pregnant. If they continue all the way through to the bottom (I think he has like 20 tubs in a rack) then that girl just isn't going to get pregnant.

It's probably the easiest way to do it, and writing the method out is sort of hard to explain. It's in one of his rat barn videos, watching him do it and explain as he goes is the easiest way to learn it. :gj:

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Originally Posted by chromeitout

I understand the "check them" thing, but what I'm talking about is keeping track of the individuals that continually have low numbers and should be replaced by new females, due to age or whatever. There is no way that I could remember on looks alone of a particular female that she is a poor producer in a rotating community. I totally understand how the moving around part works, but the question about records is regarding efficiency.

Edit: Also, if there are no records kept in this type of setup you could very possibly have females in the breeding colony taking up space that never get pregnant at all and you wouldn"t know it. You would just check her, see that she wasn't pregnant and put her back in there until next week when you would do the same thing again.

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Thats is true, and can happen to where rats may not be getting pregnant. Never thought about it though.

One other thing I thought of, when you pull out females, and she has a small litter (< 9) put a mark on her tail when she weans. This way when she has a second litter, and it is still small, you know she is a poor producer because of the mark on her tail from the last go around. Could work!

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Originally Posted by chromeitout

?

I use 6F as well. So, you have 20 racks of 7 tubs = 140 tubs that produce 1000 a week?

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(20x6)-30(5 grow out racks)= 90

remember, the grow out racks double as an out going quarantine area...

so I get litters out of them sometimes also.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

One other thing I thought of, when you pull out females, and she has a small litter (< 9) put a mark on her tail when she weans. This way when she has a second litter, and it is still small, you know she is a poor producer because of the mark on her tail from the last go around. Could work!

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Nice, I love it! Never thought about permanent markers! Now even I could keep track of that. How about a mark at the base of the tail for a good litter and a mark close to the tip for a bad one. Females in the system with no marks at all have never produced.:cool:

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Originally Posted by chromeitout

Nice, I love it! Never thought about permanent markers! Now even I could keep track of that. How about a mark at the base of the tail for a good litter and a mark close to the tip for a bad one. Females in the system with no marks at all have never produced.:cool:

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Thats right there is a perfect idea :gj:

Marker will eventually come off, but I've used it before. Seems like it stays almost two weeks, so remarking once a week is a good idea.

I dont know how well a mark on the tip would stay, try going close to the base. Vertical stripe good, horizontal bad?

There it is!:gj: