Pine shavings.

Is pine shavings ok for ball pythons?? I've been told yes by a pet shop, and searched it online and I get the answer no. Which answer is right?

Pine is definitely NOT ok for ball pythons as it can be toxic. Aspen would be a much better choice.

NONONO!!!!! The pet shop is just trying to rake your money, and obviously is not educated or is trying to kill your snake! Pine is toxic for all reptiles, please do not use it.

even kiln dried is harmful to reptiles. no pine. use aspen or paper, or nothing. no ceder or pine.

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Originally Posted by Hock3ymonk3y

NONONO!!!!! The pet shop is just trying to rake your money, and obviously is not educated or is trying to kill your snake! Pine is toxic for all reptiles, please do not use it.

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This makes me quite angry:mad: This is the same reptile shop that sold me a ball that is supposed breeder who wants nothing to do with my females and only eats mice!!!

Yeah pine is such a no go that I had to put up a thread to find out if feeding rodents that lived on pine bedding was a good idea. Scary stuff, imagine how many people have BPs and dont know any better? 25-40yr life span in captivity nothing, the pet shops are killing off animals and making people buy more BPs.
"Oh honey, our 7 yr old BP died. Let's go buy a new one."
Or the pet stores that are like hey buy hot rocks and UTHs and half logs and put em all in and get the vines to climb on. That way your BP can get burnt, live in toxic conditions and climb to the screen top, burn its nose and fall back down.

Damn you Petco...!!

Nope...and don't let any petstore tell you otherwise!

Wow I would go back to that pet store and start a ruckus...lol.

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Originally Posted by unrezt

Wow I would go back to that pet store and start a ruckus...lol.

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Well I kind of want to keep the relationship with these guys ok just in case I have problems with the pastel I got from them. I did call though and confront him on saying it is ok to use pine shavings...He said there is all kinds of controversy on pine shavings and the oil amounts are so low that it wouldn't hurt them. He did have a good argument and it was the same that I was wondering....If everybody raises thier rats on pine shavings then woudn't that pose a problem??

If it were me I would find another place to do business at.

Is there any research that verifies that pine is detrimental to the extent that it will shorten life spans by decades?

I can't find any.

If you've got it, and it's not from your friend who knew a guy that said so, I'd like to see it.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Is there any research that verifies that pine is detrimental to the extent that it will shorten life spans by decades?

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I would think that the vehemence with which some of those posting have let their views be known that substantiating facts would be but a moment in production, surely hiding on discs and in secret memory caches for just such a query as mine.

It seems that, once again, I have erred.

heh

Who'd a thought?

I believe I've read somewhere that in the old days, people didn't know better, and lots of people kept their snakes on pine.

If I were placing money on a bet, I'd say that it is at least possible to keep a snake healthy and use kiln dried pine bedding. But you'd probably need lots of ventilation to keep harmful vapors to a minimum, and ventilation would be problematic in a BP enclosure because that would make it hard to keep up humidity. I'd also think very prompt changing of the bedding any time it was soiled or water was spilled would be a must.

Just because I think it is probably possible doesn't mean I'd do it myself. There are plenty of alternatives, so why use something that is potentially causing harm to my animals? Even if that harm is only on a low level that I'd never notice, I'd rather just pick one of the other options.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I would think that the vehemence with which some of those posting have let their views be known that substantiating facts would be but a moment in production, surely hiding on discs and in secret memory caches for just such a query as mine.

It seems that, once again, I have erred.

heh

Who'd a thought?

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Known fact-pine contains oils that are toxic and unsafe for reptiles.



Main Entry:1tox·ic
Pronunciation:\ˈtäk-sik\
Function:adjective
Etymology:Late Latin toxicus, from Latin toxicum poison, from Greek toxikon arrow poison, from neuter of toxikos of a bow, from toxon bow, arrow
Date:1664
1 : containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation <toxic waste> <a toxic radioactive gas> <an insecticide highly toxic to birds>


If your snake dies or becomes debilitated and consequently dies, and you used pine bedding that wasn't kiln dried...I'd say you just shortened the life span of your snake by decades. But you're a facts person, so sorry I dont have a ready link available to appease you.

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Originally Posted by pavlovk1025

If your snake dies or becomes debilitated and consequently dies, and you used pine bedding that wasn't kiln dried...I'd say you just shortened the life span of your snake by decades. But you're a facts person, so sorry I dont have a ready link available to appease you.

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Yup, I like facts. They are often quite interesting.

Are you now saying that your previous blanket statement covering all pine bedding was inaccurate?

Facts are interesting.

Is it a fact that dried pine, assuming of course, that we are now speaking ONLY of kiln dried pine, does give off these, what was that newfangled word you were so kind to define for me....toes in or oxen or something like that, it was hard to see through the vitriol you left on the screen, anyway, them things what ain't good to breathe?

You see, it would seem to me, dolt that I am, that if the pine was dry, there would be no fumes, scent perhaps, but not fumes.

Let me return your unasked for but most sincerely appreciated ASSistance:
fume
  /fyum/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fyoom] Show IPA noun, verb, fumed, fum⋅ing.
–noun
1. Often, fumes. any smokelike or vaporous exhalation from matter or substances, esp. of an odorous or harmful nature: tobacco fumes.

Of course, this is all predicated on daily checks on your snake to insure that a tipped water bowl was taken care of as soon as possible, which I have absolutely not a doubt in the world is exactly, without exception, how it goes with you.

Neh?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I would think that the vehemence with which some of those posting have let their views be known that substantiating facts would be but a moment in production, surely hiding on discs and in secret memory caches for just such a query as mine.

It seems that, once again, I have erred.

heh

Who'd a thought?

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I'm glad you brought this up.

Back in the old days, when I was young(er) and apparently stupid(er) I kept my reptiles on dried pine shavings. Those snakes lived long and fruitful lives - some are even still with me.

I live close to a livestock supply store that stocks Harlan-Teklad shredded aspen at a very good price - so a couple of years ago I made the switch.

I've read the toxicology reports on cedar, and I have read anecdotal evidence that pine can cause issues with the liver along with potential allergic and/or respiratory problems.

I've read Debbie Ducommun's report on the toxicity of cedar and pine shavings which cites soft wood studies done in the 90s on rodents http://exoticpets.about.com/gi/dynam...g/litters.html and I've read the studies on which they were based.

There is also a rebuttal of sorts at http://exoticpets.about.com/gi/dynam....geo/Pine.html . which addresses Ducommun's article and the studies it was based on.

With all that said, I've never had a problem, and there are some well-known breeder's out there who have used or currently use kiln-dried pine without issues.

So how many people who have responded to the OP actually have some experience with kiln-dried pine shavings? How many have had health issues that they can prove are linked to this bedding?

Or are we just regurgitating what has been read elsewhere?

I will say no, for no reason will you ever catch me using pine shavings with my snakes now, no matter how it was dried. Sorry but I am not willing to try and save a few bucks to even *possibly* risk my snake's health. I don't get why anyone would, just freaking use what is KNOWN and undisputably safe and you won't have any problems.

I also will add that I would love to see some actual proof behind these statements that I have heard countless and innumerable times, because in my younger, stupid-er (lol) days, I too used pine on ALL of my snakes. I never had any health issues, all of my snakes remained outwardly healthy. All of the snakes that I never ended up selling/moving out of the collection are still with me! But the moment that I learned that pine is no good, I switched and never looked back. For about 2 years I kept my entire collection on aspen shavings, but I have recently switched to something even better... newspaper pellets. These are pellets of recycled newspaper. The brand I use is kittysoft (packaged as cat litter) but is half the price of yesterday's news and is the same friggin thing in a different package. I always hated how aspen shavings get everywhere, on food, in the water bowl, on the carpet and then dragged by my socks to the rest of the house. With newspaper pellet, my favorite thing about it is that it rarely sticks to food, and if it does, it's like one piece, and you can swish it away with the tongs in a second. it's also extremely absorbant, completely clean and will not come with bugs like some wood shavings *might*. It does not get flung into the water bowls like the aspen, it doesn't stick to me and get drug all over the house, and it is doing well even with my higher humidity animals such as my BP's. If a BP spills their water overnight and I don't notice it RIGHT away, I don't have to worry about that nasty black mold that seems to almost instantaneously appear on aspen when it is wetted and in a rack system where it cannot quickly dry.

As far as it goes we hedge on the safe and use news paper. Even if the pine proved to be internally nontoxic I would still not use it personally. I deal with a lot of pine in my job and i know that even in kiln dried pine shavings you will get shavings that are absolutely saturated with pine rosin. wood soaked in rosin we used to call lighter knot (in my boy scout days) because it would light like gasoline and start a fire real easy. It is also sticky and irritating on the skin. Ican't immagine what that would do to an animals skin with no limbs or paws to remove it. Soo even if it proves nontoxic I vote no on the pine bedding. My .02 for what it is worth

I'd start a poll, but that's too much effort.

I'm wondering how many of you No pine users also go along with the world being flat.

You can just post yes if you do and no if you don't, no need for explanations, just a matter of curiosity.

Wait, what? The world is flat?! :O

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'd start a poll, but that's too much effort.

I'm wondering how many of you No pine users also go along with the world being flat.

You can just post yes if you do and no if you don't, no need for explanations, just a matter of curiosity.

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There is a poll...:gj:

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Wait, what? The world is flat?! :O

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I'm just looking for correlations in informational accuracy in regards to specifics.

Pine is the bane of all snakes. therefore, to those of this postulation, the world must also be flat.

Or such is my guess, which may be in error. I suppose we could all be the dream of a butterfly...

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Pine is the bane of all snakes. therefore, to those of this postulation, the world must also be flat.

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nice analogy. kinda like "those who don't have a document to prove something know it is false. therefore, to those of this population, if you have experience but no documentation, you must be a liar! NO ONE can have ACTUAL experience, right? i mean, if a lab doesn't publish a paper, certainly it's not true.... why else would people be doing a test in SC to see if burmese pythons can survive the winter? obviously the info is inaccurate; the snakes will live and be fine. this isn't cruel, is it? we KNOW they can live in 20f temps because people SAY they can't!! wow!!!

kiln dried pine does contain sap that is not dry. i've experienced 2 ri's and 1 impaction from pine bedding. i haven't used it for several years, and will never use it again. 2 ri's came about in established habitats with no variable changes other than bedding (paper to pine, cosmetic reasons). the impaction was a result of the bedding, according to biopsy.

sorry, the encyclopedia britannica did not publish my experiences.... :(

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Originally Posted by Ben Biscy

nice analogy. kinda like "those who don't have a document to prove something know it is false. therefore, to those of this population, if you have experience but no documentation, you must be a liar! NO ONE can have ACTUAL experience, right? i mean, if a lab doesn't publish a paper, certainly it's not true.... why else would people be doing a test in SC to see if burmese pythons can survive the winter? obviously the info is inaccurate; the snakes will live and be fine. this isn't cruel, is it? we KNOW they can live in 20f temps because people SAY they can't!! wow!!!

kiln dried pine does contain sap that is not dry. i've experienced 2 ri's and 1 impaction from pine bedding. i haven't used it for several years, and will never use it again. 2 ri's came about in established habitats with no variable changes other than bedding (paper to pine, cosmetic reasons). the impaction was a result of the bedding, according to biopsy.

sorry, the encyclopedia britannica did not publish my experiences.... :(

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How did your arrive at your RI conclusion? Was there an necropsy done or are you just guessing that it was an RI?

Seems like it's more your fault than the bedding's if your snake is feed on it and eats it with his meal. Seems pretty easy to me to either feed in another container or put down something to prevent the ingestion of bedding.

Also, a snake who eats his bedding is one who has weeded itself out of the genepool and with reason. If you're not smart enough to know how to eat on the ground, you should not be eating on the ground.

So, are we just supposing here or are there actual facts in the mix?

There is ever very little formal research done when it comes to the do's and don'ts of reptile keeping. What we teach as successful husbandry practices today is because of decades of trial and error by people like Bob Clark and Dave/Tracy Barker that were in on the ground floor of keeping pythons.

I know that Pine, Cedar and any aromatic ever green sap is a natural irritation to snakes skin. We know this because Woodpeckers and other wood boring birds have been proven that they use it to ward off snakes in the wild. The fact that its dried doesn't mean the sap is gone it just means that its dry. It would stand to reason that if brief exposure to this sap is enough to ward off reptiles then a prolonged exposure to even the dried could possibly have an adverse effect on the animals.

Is this proven over many different study's? No not even close..They way I see it better safe than sorry. You might could keep 200 animals on pine for two years and never have a problem. And then you might only lose one animal. To me its just not worth the risk .

Try here:
http://www.ratfanclub.org/pine&cdr.html

I realize it is posted by the Rat Fan Club, but it is an interesting read. Of course, the book itself also appears old. Still, form your own opinions about it.

My grandfather is a woodworker and has been for a long time. I remember reading in one of his magazines about toxic woods. So, I decided to look online for the list of woods and thier effects on people. Mind you, these are the effects on people not reptiles or animals. I don't see pine on it any where or cedar for that matter. The list is interesting though.

Here is the list:
http://www.mimf.com/archives/toxic.htm

Definitely not. Pine shavings can be toxic and oils from it can kill your snake. I recommend using either Cypress Mulch, Aspen Bedding, or Eco Earth. Those are great substrates for Ball pythons. I use Cypress Mulch for my BPs, and I've used Aspen on them before. Those are the best substrates to use for BPs, and here are some that you should never use:
-Soils
-Sands
-Pine
-Cedar
-Wood shavings
-Bark chips

Those substrates are not the best for Ball pythons. Sands and soils can get the snake impacted, Pine and Cedar are toxic, Wood shavings can injure your snake, and Bark chips can get your snake impacted if swallowed.

Personally I use Aspen or Newspaper. On the other hand, I've known some people who have been breeding snakes for decades that use pine. I think the 'Toxicity of pine' has been overblown. I guess it kind of makes sense, pine resin contains terpenes and other aromatic resins that could be bad in their concentrated form, but I don't know a single study proving that pine shavings are bad for snakes or even rodents.

I should also point out that the odor of pine is caused by molecules of the volatile oils in the wood. If the oils were gone, it would no longer have that fresh, piney smell. So there's no such thing as pine that has an odor but no volatile oils in it.

Newspaper is cheaper, safer, and a lot less messy. I gave up on using particulate substrates when I realized how much snakes pee (spot-cleaning=icky), and how much more expensive they were. Newspaper poses no hazard of ingestion, can be gotten for free if you talk to some delivery people, and lets you keep the bins odor-free.

I don't like regular pine, but kiln dried pine I've used for years for my small animals and feeders with no problems. I've kept my snakes on it from time to time when I've ran out of aspen, or a snake "blew up" their tub and I ran out of newspaper.

I never use anything that has the possibility of causing harm to my colelction. Why risk killing off a 1000$ animal cause you want the more naturalistic look.

Newspaper or aspen is your best bet for your reptiles. Stick with what is known to work and be SAFE

As for feeders i been using Equine fresh pine pellets with pine shavings and feed them to my snakes and nothing. In order for anything to really affect a snake would need pro longed exposure to one substance. Remind you snake eating a pine shaving off a rat will be digested and within hours as their acids are highly abrasive.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonLOVER

Definitely not. Pine shavings can be toxic and oils from it can kill your snake. I recommend using either Cypress Mulch, Aspen Bedding, or Eco Earth. Those are great substrates for Ball pythons. I use Cypress Mulch for my BPs, and I've used Aspen on them before. Those are the best substrates to use for BPs, and here are some that you should never use:
-Soils
-Sands
-Pine
-Cedar
-Wood shavings
-Bark chips

Those substrates are not the best for Ball pythons. Sands and soils can get the snake impacted, Pine and Cedar are toxic, Wood shavings can injure your snake, and Bark chips can get your snake impacted if swallowed.

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:confused:

You recommend using aspen and cypress but then caution against wood shavings?

Ever had a snake get impacted from swallowing wood substrate? Any substrate?

I ask because it is always brought up as an imminent hazard. I've been using wood substrate (hey, there was a period where I used *gasp* corn cob!) for almost 20 years and I have a lot of snakes. I never had an impaction problem. My vet is a dedicated herp vet who has seen only one case in her career....and that was a case in which the snake already had thickened stomach due to crypto).........

..........and when I talked to the vets at UCD (while one of my snakes was undergoing a biopsy), two of them (including one with over 25 years practice) stated they had never seen it.

So c'mon - is this something you have experienced and verified with a biopsy?

.........or is the same as everyone warning against using pine? You know the same people who haven't used it and are only repeating what they've read over and over on these forums?

As for soils, I watched a king snake eat a western fence lizard in my backyard last week. Little bugger was COVERED in soil. Guess that snake is a goner.........

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..........and when I talked to the vets at UCD (while one of my snakes was undergoing a biopsy), two of them (including one with over 25 years practice) stated they had never seen it.

So c'mon - is this something you have experienced and verified with a biopsy?

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Yeah, actually I have. I lost a number of baby corn snakes 15 or so years ago when I was keeping them on sand. Upon their deaths, they were necropsied and were found to be packed with sand.

Most vets are dog and cat Dr's and few of them even have any experience with reptiles and those that do generally haven't seen many cases so it's not surprising that they haven't seen it. But yes, it does happen.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Yeah, actually I have. I lost a number of baby corn snakes 15 or so years ago when I was keeping them on sand. Upon their deaths, they were necropsied and were found to be packed with sand.

Most vets are dog and cat Dr's and few of them even have any experience with reptiles and those that do generally haven't seen many cases so it's not surprising that they haven't seen it. But yes, it does happen.

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Our vet is exotics only. She services the local zoos, several the local wildlife rehab centers and a two local reptile stores............

So I'll chalk death due to sand impaction as verifiable.............

Sand with babies can cause problems because it takes so little to impact them.

Sand for adults should pose no problems. I have used it many times with many species.

I suppose all those snakes in the wild NEVER eat any thing but their prey.

Some of you guys, especially you rote repeaters, really make me laugh.

Do it yourself if you want to know for sure or keep your uninformed and WRONG opinions to yourself.

I'm not an expert, I don't have any fancy letters behind my name. For the most part, I'm not even called Mr, so take this advice for what you paid for it.

If the general consensus in a hobby or industry has driven everyone away from a product, is it worth the risk to prove that you were right or wrong? I'm probably a little older than most here and I did use pine years and years ago, but I don't now. I didn't lose an animal, I heard stories, but didn't change. I heard a few more stories and thought about changing. I heard even more stories and decided it was time to change. You never know what they use in the production of some products. Maybe it wasn't the oils in pine, but a chemical that draws the oils out of the wood. Maybe it is the oils in pine. Who knows?

But what I can tell you, the commercial dealers won't use pine and thats good enough for me. When you're talking about bedding 3,000+ snakes in aspen instead of pine, there is a tremendous amount of added expense. One that most people in the business would save, if they thought it was in the best interest of their bottom line. But not if it endangers their product.

Like with most things in life, do what you want. Use whatever bedding you want. Feed your snakes whatever you want, keep them at this or that temperature if you want. But I'd rather get my knowledge from the sweat and hard work of people that have BIG money tied up into their business. Because I know they will do what's best for their business and that means their snakes too.

Jim Smith

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Originally Posted by j_h_smith

But I'd rather get my knowledge from the sweat and hard work of people that have BIG money tied up into their business. Because I know they will do what's best for their business and that means their snakes too.

Jim Smith

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An interesting theory.

It doesn't prove out though.

Cost effectiveness is often a prime motivator.

It's a lot cheaper to house 3000 snakes on paper than it is on pine.

Cheaper doesn't mean better, it just means not as expensive.

Often when it comes to Ball Pythons, there isn't much (if any) research done regarding these animals and specific needs.

Therefore, the give and take of HEARD, READ, or EXPERIENCED information is all we have to go by. I don't think it's exactly appropriate to label this "regurged" information, because if we are doing it ourselves, we are also adding our own experience to what we have learned/heard.

Personally, I would not try something new that may endanger my collection just to "prove" the validity or invalidity of a claim. In this case, I would go with the majority that have experienced/used a method with the LEAST amount of conceived health issues.

*this give and take, the exchange of information, whether researched or not..is all we have to go on at the moment, so don't hold by from sharing what you have learned or heard, someone may be able to share more information and thereby increase the level of knowledge one currently has.

btw: Theorically, all information that is posted here and anywhere is "regurged" unless one has done something different, out of the mainstream and is posting his OWN experience.:rolleyes: Even when we repeat facts that we learned in school, it can be considered "regurgation.":weirdface

before aspen........there was pine.

i would use pine......(if i had to..............if i had to)

i would not use cedar for nothing.....

now i solely use coco coir......nothing else!

Pitoon

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Originally Posted by pitoon

before aspen........there was pine.

i would use pine......(if i had to..............if i had to)

i would not use cedar for nothing.....

now i solely use coco coir......nothing else!

Pitoon

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(to the bolded) ....and probably a lot of unexplained deaths too. Back then snakes weren't high on the necropsy lists. It is only recently with the rash of scammers/flippers selling sick snakes that necropsy has become more of a household word (imo).

Who's to say what those snakes perished of "before aspen?"
:weirdface

For me, it's not whether or not it's been proven, but the fact that it HASN'T been proven if it's safe or not. I am head over heels for my little guy, and if anything happened to him, I'd never forgive myself if there was even the tiniest possibility that it could have been my fault. I fully intend to have him with me when we're both senior citizens. So, until I know it's not going to hurt him, I'm going to use something that I know won't hurt him by itself. Just because something happens in the wild, doesn't mean we should make it happen in captivity.

I've used kiln dried pine for my feeders before with no ill effects. I prefer using newspaper for snakes.

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Originally Posted by bad-one

I've used kiln dried pine for my feeders before with no ill effects. I prefer using newspaper for snakes.

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I have several friends who use kiln dried pine under their rats.
Every single rat they own sneezes.....

When I was younger I caught a couple garter snakes and put them in a glass aquarium on pine shavings.

The next day they were twitching uncontrollably and I was so horrified I released them back into the field where I found them.

I have no idea what may have caused this. The only thing I can think of was there was something toxic in their enclosure. Was it the pine? That's all that was in there besides a water bowl.

Yea I had a pet shop tell me it was ok to use a UTH without a thermostat. Oh ...that's not needed. :O What the........

Thank goodness I found this site as a newbie or my babies would be all kinds of jacked up!!

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I have several friends who use kiln dried pine under their rats.
Every single rat they own sneezes.....

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I've used pine for my rats.
No sneezing. Just because they had a batch of sick animals doesn't mean that it was the pine that caused it. Maybe even then, they got a bad brand that wasn't completely kiln dried. I prefer Aspen or Cypress or Paper Towels for my snakes, and because pine could have ill-effects on snakes if it wasn't completely kiln dried, I won't use it.

But on the rats, I've never seen them sneeze from it anymore than they sneeze from aspen bedding.

Rats all have myco--anything can set it off. Introducing new animals, or anything else that might stress them, is probably the biggest factor. Really dusty bedding will make anyone sneeze, but I have noticed no change in switching from aspen to pine.
As long as the room is well ventilated, it's fine.

The rats are more at risk from ammonia build-up if their bedding isn't changed often enough than they are from anything released by pine.

All valid points and if it works for you then who am I to refute it :P

I have seen too many people who use kiln dried pine and had respiratory issues
so I chose and continue to choose to use aspen and incur the added expense.

I breed for pets also, I can't/won't take chances with $15 rats sneezing before they go to their new homes since I give 30 day health guarantees on all my pet rats.

Your completely correct as to their ammonia build up being the biggest cause of respiratory issues,
clean tubs goes a long way towards keeping them healthy.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

All valid points and if it works for you then who am I to refute it :P

I have seen too many people who use kiln dried pine and had respiratory issues
so I chose and continue to choose to use aspen and incur the added expense.

I breed for pets also, I can't/won't take chances with $15 rats sneezing before they go to their new homes since I give 30 day health guarantees on all my pet rats.

Your completely correct as to their ammonia build up being the biggest cause of respiratory issues,
clean tubs goes a long way towards keeping them healthy.

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You are very correct. We can't really tell what the health problems are caused by, but I think it's also possible that people go longer without cleaning cages with pine because it holds the smell better than aspen, from my experience anyway.
So the correlation of respiratory issues with rats could be more related to the cage cleaning frequency than the bedding itself.