Pine shavings.

[lillyorchid]

I don't like regular pine, but kiln dried pine I've used for years for my small animals and feeders with no problems. I've kept my snakes on it from time to time when I've ran out of aspen, or a snake "blew up" their tub and I ran out of newspaper.

[RichsBallPythons]

I never use anything that has the possibility of causing harm to my colelction. Why risk killing off a 1000$ animal cause you want the more naturalistic look.

Newspaper or aspen is your best bet for your reptiles. Stick with what is known to work and be SAFE

As for feeders i been using Equine fresh pine pellets with pine shavings and feed them to my snakes and nothing. In order for anything to really affect a snake would need pro longed exposure to one substance. Remind you snake eating a pine shaving off a rat will be digested and within hours as their acids are highly abrasive.

[Skiploder]

Definitely not. Pine shavings can be toxic and oils from it can kill your snake. I recommend using either Cypress Mulch, Aspen Bedding, or Eco Earth. Those are great substrates for Ball pythons. I use Cypress Mulch for my BPs, and I've used Aspen on them before. Those are the best substrates to use for BPs, and here are some that you should never use:
-Soils
-Sands
-Pine
-Cedar
-Wood shavings
-Bark chips

Those substrates are not the best for Ball pythons. Sands and soils can get the snake impacted, Pine and Cedar are toxic, Wood shavings can injure your snake, and Bark chips can get your snake impacted if swallowed.

You recommend using aspen and cypress but then caution against wood shavings?

Ever had a snake get impacted from swallowing wood substrate? Any substrate?

I ask because it is always brought up as an imminent hazard. I've been using wood substrate (hey, there was a period where I used *gasp* corn cob!) for almost 20 years and I have a lot of snakes. I never had an impaction problem. My vet is a dedicated herp vet who has seen only one case in her career....and that was a case in which the snake already had thickened stomach due to crypto).........

..........and when I talked to the vets at UCD (while one of my snakes was undergoing a biopsy), two of them (including one with over 25 years practice) stated they had never seen it.

So c'mon - is this something you have experienced and verified with a biopsy?

.........or is the same as everyone warning against using pine? You know the same people who haven't used it and are only repeating what they've read over and over on these forums?

As for soils, I watched a king snake eat a western fence lizard in my backyard last week. Little bugger was COVERED in soil. Guess that snake is a goner.........

[MarkS]

..........and when I talked to the vets at UCD (while one of my snakes was undergoing a biopsy), two of them (including one with over 25 years practice) stated they had never seen it.

So c'mon - is this something you have experienced and verified with a biopsy?

Yeah, actually I have. I lost a number of baby corn snakes 15 or so years ago when I was keeping them on sand. Upon their deaths, they were necropsied and were found to be packed with sand.

Most vets are dog and cat Dr's and few of them even have any experience with reptiles and those that do generally haven't seen many cases so it's not surprising that they haven't seen it. But yes, it does happen.

[Skiploder]

Yeah, actually I have. I lost a number of baby corn snakes 15 or so years ago when I was keeping them on sand. Upon their deaths, they were necropsied and were found to be packed with sand.

Most vets are dog and cat Dr's and few of them even have any experience with reptiles and those that do generally haven't seen many cases so it's not surprising that they haven't seen it. But yes, it does happen.

Our vet is exotics only. She services the local zoos, several the local wildlife rehab centers and a two local reptile stores............

So I'll chalk death due to sand impaction as verifiable.............

[wilomn]

Sand with babies can cause problems because it takes so little to impact them.

Sand for adults should pose no problems. I have used it many times with many species.

I suppose all those snakes in the wild NEVER eat any thing but their prey.

Some of you guys, especially you rote repeaters, really make me laugh.

Do it yourself if you want to know for sure or keep your uninformed and WRONG opinions to yourself.

[j_h_smith]

I'm not an expert, I don't have any fancy letters behind my name. For the most part, I'm not even called Mr, so take this advice for what you paid for it.

If the general consensus in a hobby or industry has driven everyone away from a product, is it worth the risk to prove that you were right or wrong? I'm probably a little older than most here and I did use pine years and years ago, but I don't now. I didn't lose an animal, I heard stories, but didn't change. I heard a few more stories and thought about changing. I heard even more stories and decided it was time to change. You never know what they use in the production of some products. Maybe it wasn't the oils in pine, but a chemical that draws the oils out of the wood. Maybe it is the oils in pine. Who knows?

But what I can tell you, the commercial dealers won't use pine and thats good enough for me. When you're talking about bedding 3,000+ snakes in aspen instead of pine, there is a tremendous amount of added expense. One that most people in the business would save, if they thought it was in the best interest of their bottom line. But not if it endangers their product.

Like with most things in life, do what you want. Use whatever bedding you want. Feed your snakes whatever you want, keep them at this or that temperature if you want. But I'd rather get my knowledge from the sweat and hard work of people that have BIG money tied up into their business. Because I know they will do what's best for their business and that means their snakes too.

Jim Smith

[wilomn]

But I'd rather get my knowledge from the sweat and hard work of people that have BIG money tied up into their business. Because I know they will do what's best for their business and that means their snakes too.

Jim Smith

An interesting theory.

It doesn't prove out though.

Cost effectiveness is often a prime motivator.

It's a lot cheaper to house 3000 snakes on paper than it is on pine.

Cheaper doesn't mean better, it just means not as expensive.

[broadude]

Often when it comes to Ball Pythons, there isn't much (if any) research done regarding these animals and specific needs.

Therefore, the give and take of HEARD, READ, or EXPERIENCED information is all we have to go by. I don't think it's exactly appropriate to label this "regurged" information, because if we are doing it ourselves, we are also adding our own experience to what we have learned/heard.

Personally, I would not try something new that may endanger my collection just to "prove" the validity or invalidity of a claim. In this case, I would go with the majority that have experienced/used a method with the LEAST amount of conceived health issues.

*this give and take, the exchange of information, whether researched or not..is all we have to go on at the moment, so don't hold by from sharing what you have learned or heard, someone may be able to share more information and thereby increase the level of knowledge one currently has.

btw: Theorically, all information that is posted here and anywhere is "regurged" unless one has done something different, out of the mainstream and is posting his OWN experience. Even when we repeat facts that we learned in school, it can be considered "regurgation."

[pitoon]

before aspen........there was pine.

i would use pine......(if i had to..............if i had to)

i would not use cedar for nothing.....

now i solely use coco coir......nothing else!

Pitoon