Equate vs. P-A-M

The only reason i am posting this is because im going to petsmart real soon and i want to know if it would be worth a months wait to get pam, or if i should get the lice bed generic stuff.

well given the fact that mites are arachnids and lice are insects the lice killer may not work.

You might want to read this http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...92&postcount=1 before making your descision

GO WITH BLACK KNIGHT ALL THE WAYYYY!!!!!!! I had a BAD infestation in my whole collection and one treatment of BK got rid of em all!

I heard very mixed things about black knight.

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Originally Posted by Faber

The only reason i am posting this is because im going to petsmart real soon and i want to know if it would be worth a months wait to get pam, or if i should get the lice bed generic stuff.

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Why do you have to wait a month? A week at best:

http://www.entirelypets.com or http://www.pro-products.com

Believe me Equate works, But so does Pam. I only use equate, because it works, never needed to try provent a mite. I swear by equate. They are chemically the same.

I just need to stay out of these debates. forgive me?:please:

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Originally Posted by XGetSome

Believe me Equate works, But so does Pam. I only use equate, because it works, never needed to try provent a mite. I swear by equate. They are chemically the same.

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Actually, they are not chemically the same. They share some of the same chemicals but not all.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Actually, they are not chemically the same. They share some of the same chemicals but not all.

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do you know where to find a detailed chemical analysis of both products?

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Originally Posted by Ben Biscy

do you know where to find a detailed chemical analysis of both products?

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The link posted above by Deborah is the statement from Bob Pound, the creator of Provent-A-Mite and he explains the differences.

But no - I don't have that.

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Originally Posted by PythonBreeder

GO WITH BLACK KNIGHT ALL THE WAYYYY!!!!!!! I had a BAD infestation in my whole collection and one treatment of BK got rid of em all!

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I second the use of Black Knight if you can find it. I had a mite outbreak (my first since keeping BP's since 04!) and the BK really did the job. Just read the label carefully and don't spray on the animal (use Reptile Relief for that.)

Good luck, mites suck...but it's not the end of the world.

I really tried to keep this zipped and just shut my mouth, considering I got a friendly response to a post in a different thread, mentioning that this site only suggests using PAM. Well, ... I don't use PAM (I use Repel Permanone) and here's why I don't necessarily see any reason for spending $20.00 plus S&H for a can of the only product that is patented as snake safe:

Provent-A-Mite is being distributed (not manufactured) by Pro-Products. It is manufactured by Coulston. Coulston distributes the product under the name Coulston Duranon ($5 to 8).

The ingredients (including inerts and breakdown of actives) for most products are easy enough to look up via google. Just type in the EPA number of any product followed by the words 'material safety data'.

I prefer spending my money on items that contribute to my snakes' well-being, not someones' monopoly addiction.

Thank you....I posted similar I read CLAIMS that the ingredients are different but no proof. I also looked into the EPA ingredients and the manufacturer. I am sorry for all the DieHard PAM users, and generally I know many of you personally. But I have some snake oil for sale that Makes you live longer than 100 years old. Well its not really snake oil, even though the ingredients are the same, they are different.:confused:

On a sidenote, PAM is absolutely awesome(except the price). Also anyone using Equate bedding spray, NIX, similar permethrin products, It IS lethal and WILL kill your snakes without proper instructions. PAM clearly explains step by step how to use it. It is a great product, but If I could buy Coca Cola in a Blue can for 50 cents a can or a Red can for 2$ a can, I think I will have it in blue.

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Originally Posted by SoundUnsleep

I really tried to keep this zipped and just shut my mouth, considering I got a friendly response to a post in a different thread, mentioning that this site only suggests using PAM. Well, ... I don't use PAM (I use Repel Permanone) and here's why I don't necessarily see any reason for spending $20.00 plus S&H for a can of the only product that is patented as snake safe:

Provent-A-Mite is being distributed (not manufactured) by Pro-Products. It is manufactured by Coulston. Coulston distributes the product under the name Coulston Duranon ($5 to 8).

The ingredients (including inerts and breakdown of actives) for most products are easy enough to look up via google. Just type in the EPA number of any product followed by the words 'material safety data'.

I prefer spending my money on items that contribute to my snakes' well-being, not someones' monopoly addiction.

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Hi,

So you don't put any faith in what is said in this post then?


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

So you don't put any faith in what is said in this post then?


dr del

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No, I don't and that surely has nothing to do with faith, but with rational thinking.
I was brought up to think for myself, not to have others think for me. I absolutely consider and respect the opinion of others, but I don't necessarily jump off the cliff just because everyone else does it!

I am quite happy spending a mere 20 dollars on something that is guarenteed to not harm my animal.
If that other product were to cause some sort of issue, would you regret saving the 12 dollars? Coughvetbillscough.

The only thing I see here is greed.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I am quite happy spending a mere 20 dollars on something that is guarenteed to not harm my animal.
If that other product were to cause some sort of issue, would you regret saving the 12 dollars?

The only thing I see here is greed.

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So If my snake dies after using Provent a Mite...I get a refund for the price of my animal? Thats what a Guarantee is. Good luck on that.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

So you don't put any faith in what is said in this post then?


dr del

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Correct, No I dont unless the manufacturer proves to me that their product is different, PAM isnt even the manufacturer.

Also they would have to prove to me that my Can of 4$ Equate that I buy at WalMart isnt the same product.

Ive seen this in every Hobby.

Calcium supplements for my retiles, chameleons, lizards, bearded dragons...I can buy 10$ TINY can at a pet store or a 50Lb bag for 10$ to 20$ at a feed store.

Kalkwasser sold in Tiny Cans for saltwater tanks, everyone paid 10$ to 20$
a can (few ounces) for it for many years, to only find out I was buying a pound of it for a Dollar, its Pickling Lime. Been tested extensively to prove so. Not by me, but by Randy Holmes Farley, a chemist with extensive research and documentation.

Aragonite sand for reef tanks, 20lbs for 20$ Or go to Home Depot and buy a 50 pound bag of SouthDown playsand for 5$ and its 100% Aragonite snd, just not marketed the same.

I can go on forever. I will say This, Bob Pound sells a excellent product(PAM)
I'm just fortunate enough to know how to get the same thing or similar for much less....and if its not the same thing? I know many people including myself who has used it for years, with no problems, and 100% success rate.

I also read a claim from the Distributor the reason the EPA ingredients are the same to similar product was it takes years (too long) to test a new product and get EPA approval....well? When I find out they are willing to do so, and I am proven the products safer....I'll be willing to pay the extra 15$ a can for it.

Also, PAM is $15 on the Pro-Products website.

If your animal died, and was autopsied and proven that it was due to a PAM product it would kill PAMs rep, and I can bet from the replies of the creator himself, that he would do something in result.
If all else fails, you could sue, because it's EPA approved.

You would have no case with the other products.

Incorrect, you would be told you misused the product.

Because PAM Is EXTREMELY safe WHEN and only when used properly, no way they would believe you used it properly. For the record i have a can of PAM,
I believe in it. But I also believe in other permethrin products, and have never used the PAM, because I still have my Equate.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Also, PAM is $15 on the Pro-Products website.

If your animal died, and was autopsied and proven that it was due to a PAM product it would kill PAMs rep, and I can bet from the replies of the creator himself, that he would do something in result.
If all else fails, you could sue, because it's EPA approved.

You would have no case with the other products.

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There is no cure for stupidity...That's really all I can say. You can lead a horse to water...

I'll take a can of PAM any day!

I'll save the Equate for the germ donkies aka ankle biters aka curtain climbers

I'll spend $20 to know my snakes won't have some deathly reaction to the equate brand possibly being manufactured wrong.

If you can't spend $20 on a can of the safe stuff, that you'll use maybe once or twice and preventatively on any new kids, then why have them? It's just $20.. I'm broke as nobody's business, but hell, I still bought it. Still have the ONE can I bought years ago...

Plus, if you quarantine PROPERLY, seriously.. how much of it can you use? Even mite infested rescues only need one treatment.. jeez.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

If your animal died, and was autopsied and proven that it was due to a PAM product it would kill PAMs rep, and I can bet from the replies of the creator himself, that he would do something in result.
If all else fails, you could sue, because it's EPA approved.

You would have no case with the other products.

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Wow!
Pro-Products states: "... is the only patented, EPA approved product ...". Please have a very close look at that phrase and carefully observe the position of the comma.
EPA does not, never has and never will patent a product or approve it for anything such as "safe for use on reptiles". EPA (and USDA) give safety rankings and categorize products based on contents, while the description is that given by the registrant.
Anyone can obtain a patent for anything adding a couple magic words to stop the competition (how about "SoundUnsleep's Lavender Flakes - Safe for use on Night Crawlers").
What gives anyone the idea that none of the generic products are EPA approved? Equate (and the equivalents Rite aid, Equaline, Top Care, Care One, etc.) all are EPA approved, otherwise you wouldn't have them sit in the shelves.
Before coming to the conclusion that everyone disagreeing with the use of PAM is a snake killer, how about reading through some of the material safety data sheets (no, you will not find one one PAM, but one from the manufacturer of the product, Coulston, offering PAM as Flea and Tick Killer for dogs), plugging in the CAS# of the chemicals listed, to obtain the information that those rely on that chose to go with the generic?!

I usually do not reply to these types of threads, as when someone is as closed minded as some in this thread, it is obvious that no one can argue against such ignorance. I am not trying to get any one into a fit of rage, but their statements are argumentative without any basis in fact.

Many of the statements made on this thread are false and it shows that these persons know nothing about pesticides, the registration process, the significance of a master label allowing many different formulas to be used at will for the same brand name and so forth. FYI, Pro Products is the exclusive producer of our Provent-a-mite formula, but since these persons do not understand how things are done, they would have no idea as to why company names are listed as shown in the public records.

Instead of making numerous unsubstantiated claims, why don't these persons try to learn something and ask intelligent legitimate questions regarding these issues. I for one am more than happy to answer any civil question and if one does a search over the years of the many posts I have made, you will find that just about every statement or disagreement made has been addressed with the facts as to why these misconceptions are wrong.

I don't see anyone that has provided any qualifications showing expertise in this area, but have no problem making all kinds of statements without any real knowledge or actual facts, rather just superficial information. None of this information can be found by going to the EPA, or other online sources. The best you will find is the generic active, never what the actual chemical being used is and never will anyone know what the total formula is. These are trade secrets that the EPA must keep confidential. You will also never know if and when a formula has been changed, companies don’t have to tell you.

Another thing that few people are aware of is that most of these lice sprays, regardless of brand name, are made by the same manufacture under dozens of sub-registrations. I often see someone post that one lice spray is all right to use, but another brand killed their animals, when in reality, they were both the same formula. They just got lucky the first time.

The only way one can be sure that the product they are using will not harm their animals is if the EPA approved label states that the product can be used with specific hosts to eliminate specific pests.

People state Nix is the same as Provent-a-mite, but since Nix is labeled to control lice on humans, the FDA (not EPA as with this use, it is considered a drug) didn't want it remaining on a child or adult for long periods, so the formulation will break down quickly once exposed to air. It is also a more toxic formula as humans are not as sensitive to this chemical, but reptiles are. It also contains among other chemicals, a fabric softener which has never been tested on reptiles to see what if any effect it could have. Since it, as well as most other formulas, break down readily, there is no residual effect and the concentrate bottle is also compromised once opened. There are also many reports of people killing their reptiles with nix.

Some people say that Black Knight is better. First off, it is a petroleum-based product vs. Provent-a-mite which is a water based product. Black Knight provides no residual protection as the active is not photo stable (look it up in any chemical reference manual), so it quickly becomes inactive. A published study performed in South Africa using a dozen chemicals to try and eradicate ticks on tortoises showed that Provent-a-mite was the most effective product and the active in Black Knight came in last with relatively poor results. It is not EPA approved for all reptiles and the biggest reason I don’t understand why one would choose it is because it costs at least twice as much to use as Provent-a-mite. Look at the label, a 10 gallon aquarium requires an 8 second spray where Provent-a-mite would require approximately a 2 second spray. This is 4 times as much, so even if the can is twice the size, it is still costing twice as much per application and again, there is no residual protection.

Equate, Rid, Walgreen lice spray and so forth are all made by the same manufacture and then private labeled. Just recently we have received several e-mails telling us that these persons were using Rid and it killed their animals. A while back, a large breeder told me he killed more than 15 chondros using a permethrin camping spray that he was told was the exact same thing as Provent-a-mite (0.5%). These companies change their formulas as they need to based on issues such as cost, chemical availability, resistance and so on. Just because a product may not harm a reptile one time, does not mean it will not the next time.

It is amazing that most people would never use an off label product to treat a problem on themselves, their families, dogs or cats, but don't even think twice using a product that they have no way of knowing what is really in the formula on their reptiles. I doubt anyone reading this would ever use dursban or sevin dust on their kids head, but why not, many people have no problem using it on their reptiles.

Do some research; a company can change their formula whenever they want as long as the alternate chemicals are on the master label. They can change inerts as long as the alternate chemical will not pose any risk to the hosts listed on the can. As chemical supplies change, so do the formulas. PBO is a common chemical that is often used from time to time, of which there are published studies showing it is toxic to reptiles and was tested for effectiveness against brown tree snakes in Guam (and successful)

I recently posted another reply in these forums providing some additional details, but do not remember which one. I am sure that someone here can quickly find this and add the link if anyone is interested in reading it. I can also supply more information if anyone is interested.

Concerning liability, Provent-a-mite has been extensively clinically studied on over 70 species of reptiles, been specifically approved for use with reptiles by the USEPA and USDA, been widely used worldwide for more than 10 years on virtually every type of reptile being kept and has been the subject of 3 published studies showing it was superior to other methods available. It has been absolutely established that when used as directed, it is more effective than any other method and will not harm a target host.

I am here to answer any questions or disagreements anyone may have, take a chance and ask away. I might be able to resolve your issues.

Bob Pound
Pro Products

This message is in reply to soundunsleep. Let me see if I can address some of your issues:

First, the reason I used a comma is to separate the fact that the patent Provent-a-mite was issued by the USPTO has nothing to do with the EPA or USDA. Without the comma, I would agree with you, but this is why I did use a comma at that location. Provent-a-mite is a patented product that is also approved for use with all reptiles by the USEPA and USDA (the latter approval is hardly ever given)

Regarding how easy a patent is to obtain, I am sure that there are 10’s of thousands of people out there that will strongly disagree with you. How many patents have you obtained?

You obviously have never tried to apply to the EPA for any registration. It is far from (in part) “EPA (and USDA) give safety rankings and categorize products based on contents, while the description is that given by the registrant.” The EPA puts the responsibility of the registrant to conduct and submit specific studies that prove to the EPA that the product will perform per the labeled uses submitted. Their staff of experts carefully examines the submission and if there is anything they do not agree with, they require that it be clarified to their satisfaction and/or additional studies will have to be conducted to their satisfaction. Once they do accept a submission, they then go over the entire label and decide what may be stated and if there is anything they feel has to be added or deleted. The registrant has no real say in this as if one objects to their requirements, they run the risk of being denied and to then conduct ever more studies to prove a claim can or can’t be made. It’s kind of like dealing with the soup Nazi on Seinfeld, be humble and keep moving down the line.

You are correct that the other products you mention are EPA approved, but they are not approved for use with reptiles. If you carefully read the top of the directions section, it specifically states “it is illegal to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its label”. Now before you start going off on how no one is going to take you to jail for misusing a product, there is a good reason why the EPA takes this position. It has to do with adverse affects on hosts not tested, where the product may be hazardous and even more important, the potential to create a resistant strain of pests because the formula may not be correct for an off label pest. Sounds stupid, but in fact this has happened many times, including creating resistant strains of head lice in several countries using Nix. Even though it was labeled for head lice, people used the same batch instead of buying a new dose to save some money. Because the active is formulated to break down readily, subsequent uses with the original mixture no longer had the correct concentration. When you subject pests to a sub-lethal dose of a pesticide, it doesn’t take long to create resistance. Call the regulatory affairs manager of any of these other products and ask them if their products can be used to control mites in reptile collections and see what they say.

To provide some insight on one of many ways products are brought to market is to “piggyback” on an existing inactive master label. The registrant can, as I have stated before, add alternate chemicals to a master label, which when approved, allow the new formula to be produced under that label. It is extremely expensive and time consuming to develop and register a new product. By joining up with a company that has an inactive master label that can be modified, significantly reduces both. Coulston happened to have such a label and offered us a deal. They are no more the manufacture than we are a distributor. Few companies actually have the facilities to fill their own product, so take their formula to an EPA establishment that has the equipment and capability to produce the product. We have used more than 5 different facilities to date.

A MSDS (and yes we do have our own), provides no more data than the label on the can does, by only providing the generic name of the active. Still no specific cis-trans configuration of the specific molecule being used and no information regarding any of the inert ingredients. There is no mention of any surfactants, synergists, emulsifiers, stabilizers, homogenizers, buffers, many solvents and so forth along with potentially many other chemicals that are in the formulation. Also equivalent chemicals such as solvents can be interchanged, so a different product may have been used or multiple products may be listed.

The primary purpose of the MSDS is to provide basic chemical information, physical characteristics and medical instructions in case of a contamination. MSDS’s do not provide any information from which one can glean the specific chemical composition of a product (again trade secrets, they are not disclosed).

Many people have learned the hard way that the statements I am making are true. I have had people that swore for years they knew that the method they were using was safe, only to suddenly lose precious animals when using the “same” product in the same manner. This doesn’t even address any chronic effect a product may cause, so the animal dies months or even years later, which few people are going to realize was from a chemical treatment performed at an earlier time. This was the case documented at several zoos using no-pest strips.

These are some of the reasons the EPA requires labels stating what the product can be used for.

Bob Pound
Pro Products

Whoa!!! It took a while to read through all that. Great, information from the source.

Okay here are a couple questions: You said, you are producing Provent-a-mite. Are you manufacturing the basic formula?

Further, you are stating that "allow the new formula to be produced under that label". Are those formulas not to be registered as new formulas (with a new formula number)?

You are absolutely correct: I do not have any products patented. However, I'm one of those crazies that get's to work with products (urethanes and epoxies) before they are being patented and I'm familiar with the difference between public disclosure and trade secrets.

Btw, I do not use sevin dust on my kids' heads, ... but I just finished eating my BBQ dinner that was served on a generic paper plate!

The first suggestion I usually make, when someone comments on having a problem with mites: Get Provent-A-Mite (but, if you can't afford, or can't wait until it arrives in the mail ...). I use Repel Permanone. The product is being suggested by members of the Maine Herpetology Society and I have not found any reports indicating that, if used properly (not ON snake), the product caused any adverse reaction (including fatal) in the snake (or reptile for that matter).

In case you haven't noticed, nobody - at any time - made a statement that indicated that Provent-A-Mite is not a good product, or suggested not using it. Just to add this : I swear by Bio Shield, but that doesn't mean, I threw the Nolvasan into the trash!

And sorry, I'm not about to go off or get in any way emotional. There have been many threads just like this and the outcome is always the same: Shame on those that don't agree with that there can be only one!

Soundunsleep,

You obviously have to be an intelligent person if you are working in the field of organic and/or inorganic molecular chemistry, so you if anyone, should know that many facts on the surface might seem to be convincing, but there are numerous underlying factors that will change everything.

Regarding Provent-a-mite, I personally am responsible for developing the product and personally hold the patent on it. It is not owned or manufactured by another company that we simple distribute it for. If you do a thorough search, you will also find that Pro Products also holds a current section 3 registration under EPA# 73617-1. This is our registration, not held by any other company.

I did try to briefly explain for you or anyone else that may be interested, how there are many methods that one can use to bring a product to market.

You mention that you are familiar with the difference between public disclosure and trade secrets. Then you know that no unauthorized person will ever be able to determine the contents or formula of a trade secret unless they have the ability to hack into or steal such confidential information from the source. Anyone working for an establishment that has trade secrets routinely has to sign secrecy agreements, which by the sounds of it, you may have been required to do.

No one can produce, advertise or market our product without my permission. To do so would be an infringement on my patent, which is illegal and subject to prosecution.

The regulatory affairs manager of Spectrum Brands, the manufacture of Permanone, posted on Kingsnake some time ago warning that their product was not the same as Provent-a-mite and they would not assume any liability if someone misused their product with an off label use. He made it very clear that not only were the formulas different, but that their product had never been tested or would be tested to see if it would injure or kill any reptile species.

Can you explain the relevance of your statement “Btw, I do not use sevin dust on my kids' heads, ... But I just finished eating my BBQ dinner that was served on a generic paper plate!”?

The point I continue to make is that no matter what you or anyone says, there is no way that any unauthorized person will ever know what the complete formula or the exact molecule stated as an active is in any of these products. Furthermore, they have the right to and do change the formulas routinely and do not have to tell anyone they made the change as long as it falls within the approvals previously received by the EPA. Come on, I am sure you know this having a scientific background and working in the scientific community.

I ask you to look up permethrin in one of the references I am sure are in your company library and tell me exactly what the cis-trans ratio is for the molecule and how changing an OH, C or other bond will affect the characteristics of the molecule? How many different configurations are there for this specific pyrethroid?

If you want to subject your animals to a product not clinically tested or EPA approved for use with your reptiles, that’s your choice. It is a fact that many reptiles have died being exposed to all of these products you and others claim are the same as Provent-a-mite. It can be from many reasons, including a different toxicity of the active or one of many inert ingredients that you will never be able to determine.

If you look back, I never accused you of stating that Provent-a-mite didn’t work or that you may recommend it to which I appreciate. I do take issue with this as after I spent so many years perfecting a formula and spending a considerable amount of money to bring it to our industry, I have to deal with these types of comments from people who don’t know and apparently don’t seem to care about their or anyone else’s animals health or the potential risk such advice may cause someone else. These are all pesticides, and as such, none of them should be used with the apathy and disregard our industry seems to think is acceptable.

Again, you can preach to the choir all you want, you will never know what is in these different formulas, what possible acute or chronic health problems they can cause or when a manufacture changes a formula, so maybe it didn’t cause a problem the last time it was used, but it may kill your animal the next time.

It is bad enough when someone uses a product with no actual knowledge of what they are really using, but it is worse when they make statements purporting to be an expert, trying to convince others that they know what they are talking about. Use what you want, but when your expensive animal dies next week, next month, next year, maybe 2 or 3 years down the road, or starts throwing slugs, or develops other health problems, you can wonder if it was as a result of using unproven, off label products.

I am happy you find the Bioshield to work per our claims. FYI, this is not a replacement for Nolvasan as Bioshield is an antimicrobial inhibitor (as I would have explained if we talked about it). It works best and lasts much longer when applied to a clean surface. The benefit is that you don’t have to disinfect the surface as often, saving time and money and the Bioshield treatment provides continuous protection against any microbes that try to grow on the treated surface. Disinfectants can’t provide this long-term protection.

I feel that some of the statements you make are to justify the use of these other products to yourself. I think you are better than that.

If you really want to discuss this in detail, I would be more than happy to, but unfortunately do not have the time to spend hours every night writing replies. If you would like to give me a call at 845-628-8960, I will spend as much time as you like discussing this. If you prefer, you can also e-mail your # and when is a good time to call you and I will be happy to do so. Our e-mail address is promist@comcast.net.

Bob Pound
Pro Products