Question About Feeding Stunned Mice

Let me preface my question by stating that I feed my BP frozen/thawed. However, I read on some of the threads that people have BP's that will only accept live or "stunned" mice. Is there a humane way to stun a mouse, and if so how? Is this an acceptable practice in the hobby? I have never had to feed any of my snakes this way....I was just curious.

BTW...i'm not trying to start any controversy, but I know that this may a touchy subject with many people. I have the utmost respect for any animal, including feeders.

Thank You.

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Originally Posted by lmartelli77

Let me preface my question by stating that I feed my BP frozen/thawed. However, I read on some of the threads that people have BP's that will only accept live or "stunned" mice. Is there a humane way to stun a mouse, and if so how? Is this an acceptable practice in the hobby? I have never had to feed any of my snakes this way....I was just curious.

BTW...i'm not trying to start any controversy, but I know that this may a touchy subject with many people. I have the utmost respect for any animal, including feeders.

Thank You.

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It's kind of hard to stun a mouse. Usually if you try to stun them they'll die.

when the snake makes a good strike the split second between the bite and coil, the mouse always looks pretty stunned. :O but no seriously stunning is unnecessary and cruel the snakes are perfectly capable of dispatching a live functional feeder.

To stun them you can put them in a bag and bash them against something hard like the floor. You can also place a firm object like a ruler at the place where the spinal cord meets the skull and give a quick upward pull to their tail, separating the two.

I don't condone any of these methods, they're just ways I've heard to do it. I've also heard that stunned rats that wake up mid coil are more prone to put up a fight.

And the most humane way to prepare fresh killed prey is to put them to sleep with CO2 and then after they're asleep crank it way up to kill them.

Dennis

The only reason people stun feeders (that I am aware of anyway) is to make sure the animal doesn't harm the snake. But I agree with JT20, the mice/rats are usually pretty stunned the instant they're struck at and coiled. So IMO there's no need for it and I also believe there's no humane way to manually stun a feeder.

Just my $0.02.

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Originally Posted by Sarin

The only reason people stun feeders (that I am aware of anyway) is to make sure the animal doesn't harm the snake. But I agree with JT20, the mice/rats are usually pretty stunned the instant they're struck at and coiled. So IMO there's no need for it and I also believe there's no humane way to manually stun a feeder.

Just my $0.02.

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Well it may not be humane But when feeding 100+ animals I like to stun them and go on to the next. makes me feel safer that My animals are not being nawd on by Vermon!

I also feed live stunned for the reasons previosly stated. So it does not bite, scratch or claw the snake incase of a bad strike. If they don't eat it I throw it in the freezer and unthaw next time I feed. Let me just say that this was the way I was tought when I was young and never heard anything different but now being a member on this forumand a bit older and more knowledgable about the industry I have just got into contact with a frozen breeder dealer in my area so I can buy in bulk and save some money on feedings. I have 7 bp's total and am going to switch to f/t as soon as I meet up with this feeder dealer on tuesday. None of my snakes seem to prefer live over f/t but if I ever came across that problem I would still stunn before feeding just incase. This is just my opinion and way of doing things. I am in no way saying it is right or wrong!

I personally do not think there is a non-cruel way to 'stun' mice. Stunning implys that they'll wake up again eventually. However I have no qualms about feeding 'fresh killed' mice. When you kill a mouse through cervical dislocation or by smacking it on a hard surface, the mouse is dead, but the nerve impulses will still cause the mouse to twitch and kick for a while so it still looks alive. This movement will often get reluctant snakes to feed without the danger that the mouse will suddenly take a bite out of them. I think when most people say 'stunned' they really mean 'fresh killed' and if the mouse DOESN'T die and wakes up again, they're obviously not doing it right and yes I think that IS cruel.

Thanks for all of the great input. I kinda expected some mixed responses. I personally don't have a problem with feeding a fresh killed mouse, but I don't think I could "stun" one without ensuring it was dead. I certainly understand the safety factor for the snake....that's why I feed F/T, but I assume some snakes simply are not satisfied with that.

As MarkS pointed out, there is a rather big and important difference between stunning a mouse, and killing it. I do not believe it is as common as f/t or live feeding, but feeding pre-killed prey is definitely something that lots of people do and it is perfectly acceptable as long as it is done right.

Stunning is just cruel and dangerous, and very hard to do right. If you use slightly too much force, the mouse will be dead. If you don't use quite enough, the mouse will either stay conscious the entire time, which is obviously very cruel, or there is the possibility it will wake up after you have put it in your snake's enclosure, which has the potential to be dangerous to the snake because the mouse is likely to wake up in a very defensive mode. This would be especially dangerous to any snake that will just start eating the disabled prey, rather than constricting it first.

Pre-killing is fine, as long as you do it correctly. There are 3 methods I am aware of. Cervical dislocation (breaking the neck) is easy and effective, and once you learn how much force to use, you'll never end up with a stunned but not dead mouse. In fact, I think if you don't use enough force, the mouse won't even be stunned. It is not for the faint of heart, though. CO2 is also a good method, but it does require a bit more effort to get set up. Once you have a CO2 set-up, it is not too much of a hassle. There is a chance if you don't leave them in the CO2 long enough that they could wake back up, but when they do they should be a little groggy at first, so it should give you and/or your snake time to react before the mouse has a chance to do anything. Finally, a lot of people whack the mouse. While a good hard whack probably could be considered a quick and humane death, this method has greater potential for creating an inhumane situation if you don't whack the mouse hard enough. For this reason, and since there are other, better methods available, I recommend against using the whacking method.

Personally, I find feeding live to be a good alternative also. With RARE exceptions, the mice die very quickly after being struck. Since there would be the occasional miss with any of the pre-killing methods also, I don't feel that allowing the snake to do the job nature intended is any less humane.

Again, I'm still new at this, but i have a question...

When I worked in a pet shop (long long ago), we used to finger flick the mice in the head...We held them by the tail and just gave them a good pluck in the head...And there wasn't every a problem...the downside is, the mouse does regain conscience after 5 min if its not taken down by the snake. Would love to hear some feedback about this...

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Originally Posted by Montie Python

Again, I'm still new at this, but i have a question...

When I worked in a pet shop (long long ago), we used to finger flick the mice in the head...We held them by the tail and just gave them a good pluck in the head...And there wasn't every a problem...the downside is, the mouse does regain conscience after 5 min if its not taken down by the snake. Would love to hear some feedback about this...

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How does YOUR head feel after being knocked unconscious? This will definitely cause lasting pain to the animal and I consider that to be cruel.

I personally feel there is no reason to stun a mouse.
Drop in mouse and come back a little while later. If mouse is still present, remove mouse. I don't think you have to worry about a mouse ripping apart a snake in 5 minutes. That kind of thing usually happens overnight or even longer.

You're wasting your time "stunning" the mouse and I personally think it's cruel, it is not a quick clean kill, you're bludgeoning the little thing.

CO2 is an easy and effective way, that when done properly is effective and completely irreversible. It is easy to set up, and literally doesn't require anything beyond patience waiting for the animal to pass. You don't even have to watch the animal while this is done.

Cervical dislocation is recommended for small animals, but can be done improperly resulting in an injured animal. It is not recommended for animals over 150 grams.

Smacking can go wrong too. If you have to smack a few times, it was not a clean death, and I can't see any reason to do it.

In my opinion, of those three methods, CO2 is easiest on both human and animals.

That said, I feed live. Snakes are perfectly capable and equipped with the catching and killing of their meal.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

How does YOUR head feel after being knocked unconscious? This will definitely cause lasting pain to the animal and I consider that to be cruel.

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I agree 100%.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Cervical dislocation is recommended for small animals, but can be done improperly resulting in an injured animal. It is not recommended for animals over 150 grams.

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As always, Connie is a font of knowledge and has a lot of good things to say. I am curious about this one point, however. I've known people to use CD on animals considerably bigger than 150 grams, such as adult rabbits and chickens. Do you know anything about why it is not recommended for bigger animals, or have a reference?

My boyfriends BP will only hit live, and so he holds on to the mouse by the tail and twists and turns it so it is dizzy and disoriented... that way the BP has an easier time of hitting the mouse with out the mouse fighting back.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

How does YOUR head feel after being knocked unconscious? This will definitely cause lasting pain to the animal and I consider that to be cruel.

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Isn't the mouse going to DIE anyways? In a pet shop situation the mouse is going to be led on to the next snake until its eaten anyways. Wouldn't matter much if he has a headache or not. Its a mouse for God's sake.

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Originally Posted by Montie Python

Again, I'm still new at this, but i have a question...

When I worked in a pet shop (long long ago), we used to finger flick the mice in the head...We held them by the tail and just gave them a good pluck in the head...And there wasn't every a problem...the downside is, the mouse does regain conscience after 5 min if its not taken down by the snake. Would love to hear some feedback about this...

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I don't do stunning because I don't want a live and distressed prey animal "waking" up around one of my snakes in a closed environment. Also quite honestly if the snake is not capable of doing it's feeding in the way nature built it to do, then I would just feed it f/t and be done with it. I monitor our snakes as they mature and make sure that they can handle the live prey offered to them. I also work hard to make sure the prey is well fed, well hydrated, unstressed and calm when it enters the feeding environment.

It's generally over in seconds and is, in my opinion, a far more humane and clean death than pretty much anything I can do.

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Originally Posted by kc261

As always, Connie is a font of knowledge and has a lot of good things to say. I am curious about this one point, however. I've known people to use CD on animals considerably bigger than 150 grams, such as adult rabbits and chickens. Do you know anything about why it is not recommended for bigger animals, or have a reference?

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Here you go, from.....(pls note, bolding is my addition to show the part that answers your question)

AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia
(Formerly Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia) - June2007

Link can be found here....

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_we...euthanasia.pdf

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CERVICAL DISLOCATION

Cervical dislocation is a technique that has been used for many years and, when performed by well-trained individuals, appears to be humane. However, there are few scientific studies to confirm this observation. This technique is used to euthanatize poultry, other small birds, mice, and immature rats and rabbits. For mice and rats, the thumb and index finger are placed on either side of the neck at the base of the skull or, alternatively, a rod is pressed at the base of the skull. With the other hand, the base of the tail or the hind limbs are quickly pulled, causing separation of the cervical vertebrae from the skull. For immature rabbits, the head is held in one hand and the hind limbs in the other. The animal is stretched and the neck is hyperextended and dorsally twisted to separate the first cervical vertebra from the skull.72, 111 For poultry, cervical dislocation by stretching is a common method for mass euthanasia, but loss of consciousness may not be instantaneous.134
Data suggest that electrical activity in the brain persists for 13 seconds following cervical dislocation, 127 and unlike decapitation, rapid exsanguination does not contribute to loss of consciousness.128, 129

Advantages—
(1) Cervical dislocation is a technique that may induce rapid loss of consciousness.84, 127
(2) It does not chemically contaminate tissue.
(3) It is rapidly accomplished.

Disadvantages—
(1) Cervical dislocation may be aesthetically displeasing to personnel.
(2) Cervical dislocation requires mastering technical skills to ensure loss of consciousness is rapidly induced.
(3) Its use is limited to poultry, other small birds, mice, and immature rats and rabbits.

Recommendations—
Manual cervical dislocation is a humane technique for euthanasia of poultry, other small birds, mice, rats weighing < 200 g, and rabbits weighing < 1 kg when performed by individuals with a demonstrated high degree of technical proficiency. In lieu of demonstrated technical competency, animals must be sedated or anesthetized prior to cervical dislocation. The need for technical competency is greater in heavy rats and rabbits, in which the large muscle mass in the cervical region makes manual cervical dislocation physically more difficult.130 In research settings, this technique should be used only when scientifically justified by the user and approved by the Institutional Animal

Care and Use Committee.
Those responsible for the use of this technique must ensure that personnel performing cervical dislocation techniques have been properly trained and consistently apply it humanely and effectively.

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Hope that helps answer your question. :)

Thanks Joanna, that does answer my question, both from the angle of why it is not recommended for bigger animals, and also that the people I have known to use it probably were within or at least close to these guidelines since the size it can be used on is bigger for rabbits and poultry than it is for rats.

You're welcome Casey. I have that saved to my favorites since it covers guidelines for pretty much every type of euthansia. I think it's really important to note their constant reference to the training that has to be done to properly accomplish any type of humane euthing of lab animals. We as feeders of prey are, I believe, morally bound to strive to meet the standards set in this type of article both in humane treatment and in our own self-training to these things.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

I think it's really important to note their constant reference to the training that has to be done to properly accomplish any type of humane euthing of lab animals.

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That's why I usually let my snakes handle that end of it! I figure they are far more qualified than I am!

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Originally Posted by kc261

That's why I usually let my snakes handle that end of it! I figure they are far more qualified than I am!

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LOL me too! I figure they've been dealing with killing rodents for food just a tad bit longer than I've been dealing with feeding them rodents for food so they are quite likely the far greater expert than myself. :)

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Originally Posted by MarkS

How does YOUR head feel after being knocked unconscious? This will definitely cause lasting pain to the animal and I consider that to be cruel.

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Well i never been knocked unconscious...BUT if I was too choose....lets say from someone hitting me across the head with a baseball bat...dropping me from an 15 story building--actually throwing me by some unknown force, from an 15 story building ..., placing me in a burlap bag and slamming me against the wall...or getting a pitched fork on my back and then suffocating from some unknown creature i've never seen...

I'm gonna have to go with E...Leave me in my garage, turn on my car and sit on the floor and think of how much my life really sucked...

Just a small point but one that is important when understanding snakes and their live prey.

National Geographic and Brad Moon's work has proven that snakes do not kill by suffocation as was long thought to be the case.

Here's a few excerpts from.....

http://ngccommunity.nationalgeograph...per-snake.html

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It’s constriction, not suffocation… Constriction is a method snakes use to subdue their prey, by coiling their muscular bodies around their otherwise unwieldy victims and squeezing, the constriction prevents even their largest prey from biting or kicking their way free from the snake’s grasp. Constriction was a critical evolutionary innovation that enabled snakes to expand their diets, which now range from ants to antelopes. It also enabled snakes to diversify in body form—without constriction, snakes may not have evolved into the species we have today. Traditionally it was believed that constrictor snakes killed their prey by suffocation, by squeezing their victims so tightly they could no longer breathe. But suffocation can take up to several minutes, which can give a prey animal plenty of time to fight back, and we now know that prey animals are often killed much faster than that. A second explanation for how constriction kills so quickly is that it squeezes the blood vessels closed and causes the circulation to stop. If constriction is strong enough to squeeze the blood vessels closed in the body of a prey animal, then the animal’s circulation stops immediately, which causes the tissues to run out of oxygen and die in seconds rather than minutes.

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Constriction pressure is a good measure of a snake’s strength and it is one of the key components that restricts prey movement and kills it. To measure the pressures, I used small balloons attached to a prey animal and connected by tubing to a pressure transducer that gave a digital readout of the constriction pressure exerted by the snake’s coil. I discovered that even small constrictors can squeeze with pressures up to 4 PSI (pounds per square inch). This is strong enough to squeeze blood vessels closed in mice and kill them by circulatory arrest. This result was very important because it showed that the traditional explanation of constriction causing suffocation was probably wrong. The difference is crucial, because circulatory arrest kills prey animals much faster than suffocation, making it a safer and more surefire method for the snakes.

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