Bel

I was under the assumption that if you put a mojaveXmojave you have a chance at getting a real blue eyed lucy. But just today a local breeder told me that if you put a mojoXmojo you get a blue eyed lucy that isnt a true blue eyed lucy. You get a BEL but one that has a lavender color on it's head. Now am I wrong to believe that if I put a mojoXmojo i will get this

http://www.lanthano.org/IMR4MR/karma.jpg

Picture belongs to Ralph Davis

or will I get a BEL but not a real BEL such as this

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/...e4d9b8.jpg?v=0

now the second picture I thought was a super mojo, right??? i got these tips from royal constricordesigns. PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSATND. I thought I had it figured out but now I'm just confused :confused::tears::confused:

yes a you can make a Blue eyed from a butterXbutter LesserxLesser mojoXmojo russoXrusso or any combo of these the super mojo seems to be the one that has collor but it still is a blue eyed and the super lesser seems to be the cleanest

When you breed a mojave to a mojave you get what a super mojave which looks like the second picture and it is not a true BEL, but if you breed a mojave to a lesser then you get a true BEL.... and just wondering where do you live, because garrick at royalconstrictordesigns is in wausau, WI so where do you live, i live in chippewa falls, wi about 20 minutes north of eau claire!!!! i havent met anyone on here that lives nere me!

There are different BEL and let's just say that not all BEL are created equal.

While some people like the Super Mojo, I personally don't, it all comes down to personal preference.

What are these people talking about?
Yes Mojave X Mojave has a 1/4 chance of producing a Blue-eyed leucistic and yes it looks more like the second picture.
Whether it has colour or not... it is still a Lucy.
Some combos are cleaner than others as mentioned.
If you are looking for an exceptionally clean Lucy, then you may want to look into something other than a homozygous Mojave.
-Steven

Mojave x Mojave is a REAL Blue Eyed Leucistic...

So is Lesser x Lesser

Butter x Butter

Het Russo x Het Russo

And any combination of those

Just because it is not solid white with no other color does not mean it is not Leucistic.

Like it was said, if you want the cleanest white snake with blue eyes, Mojaves are not the BEST. I would suggest going with the Super Het Russo, or the White Diamond, as they are called.


Plus the photo that you have linked is also very washed out by light...

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

Mojave x Mojave is a REAL Blue Eyed Leucistic...

So is Lesser x Lesser

Butter x Butter

Het Russo x Het Russo

And any combination of those

Just because it is not solid white with no other color does not mean it is not Leucistic.

Like it was said, if you want the cleanest white snake with blue eyes, Mojaves are not the BEST. I would suggest going with the Super Het Russo, or the White Diamond, as they are called.


Plus the photo that you have linked is also very washed out by light...

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so Is the only option to get a BEL like the first picture to put a white diamondXwhite diamond. Pretty much what I'm trying to say is. I really love the way BEL's look(the first pic, dont like the second) but I cant really afford one so I am trying to find the less expensive way of making a BEL(like the one in the first pic) So price wise what should I do. Remember I'm not that rich so again the most affordable of making a BEL(like the first picture)

Then...
Male: Lesser
Female: Mojave
Should work out pretty well for you.
-Steven

Ok just so everybody knows the first picture is a Karma (Phantom X Lesser) totally different critter all together..You can also get a totally white snake buy hitting a Lesser pied. ;)

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I'm not that rich so again the most affordable of making a BEL

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If you do not like the Super Mojo than you next most affordable way will be Lesser x Lesser and it will give you a clean BEL

Leucism pronounced "luke-ism" is NOT a color morph or a name of such. its a genetic deformity and as such will vary in intensity between occurrences.

let me elaborate before the flames come. in the case of all morphs, they are genetic deformities yes. however when speaking of leucistic animals its an occurrence that takes place when 2 co-doms (incomplete dominant) breed.
because of some animals breeding history some lukes come out cleaner than others (compare mojo/mojo to lesser/lesser pair breedings) this has to do with pedigree and what it took to create this morph in the beginning.

now heres a strange occurrence....take one that makes a dirty (mojo) and one that makes a clean (lesser). pair them up and they come out nearly flawless.
just keep in mind that although the chances are arguably 14% of hatching one.
thats 14% chance PER EGG. not per clutch. that means you have an 86% chance of something else per egg.

" Loo - sism ":P

" Luke - ism " :colbert:

IMHO though, I like the Mojo x Mojo. The off color on the head gives it character.:rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by Fallguy

" Loo - sism ":P

" Luke - ism " :colbert:

IMHO though, I like the Mojo x Mojo. The off color on the head gives it character.:rolleye2:

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i only correct out of my love for the language. not out of (hahah your wrong and im right) please dont take it the wrong way.

The terms leucistic and leucism are derived from medical terminology. The prefix leuc- is the Latin variant of leuk- from the Greek leukos meaning "white" (see Steadman’s, Dorland’s or Taber’s medical dictionaries). The correct pronunciation of leucistic is (loo-kiss-tic) and leucism is (loo-kism) since the prefix in Greek and Latin are pronounced with the hard C or K sound. Since the prefix leuc- is a variant of leuk-, in medical circles the terms may also be spelled with a k (leukistic and leukism).
found here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucism

i only correct out of my love for the language. not out of (hahah your wrong and im right) please dont take it the wrong way.

The terms leucistic and leucism are derived from medical terminology. The prefix leuc- is the Latin variant of leuk- from the Greek leukos meaning "white" (see Steadman’s, Dorland’s or Taber’s medical dictionaries). The correct pronunciation of leucistic is (loo-kiss-tic) and leucism is (loo-kism) since the prefix in Greek and Latin are pronounced with the hard C or K sound. Since the prefix leuc- is a variant of leuk-, in medical circles the terms may also be spelled with a k (leukistic and leukism).
found here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leucism

"group think" isn't always right.

If you want to get technical....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/leucism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/leucistic

No harm. I just hate Wikipedia as a reference source, as anyone can enter information whether right or wrong.

There was a thread around here that went over this a while ago, I just cannot find it right now.

Hi,

The chances of a hatching a leucistic from breeding a lesser and a mojave is actually 25% per egg with the remaining 75% split equally between mojaves, lessers and wild type.


dr del

All BELs are true BELs.

Thats why they're all compatible.. but may not all look as clean or as nice. Mojo BELs often are said to have an ivory washed out look to them.

Ok well thank you all for your help and I have made my decision. I am getting a pair of lessers. So from what I understand a lesserXlesser should give me a chance of getting a clean looking bel, similar to the first picture??? Because that is what I want, and have seem to fall in love with. The really REALLY clean, white BEL's. So with lesserXlesser do I have a chance of getting one like what I want

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Originally Posted by rocky88

Ok well thank you all for your help and I have made my decision. I am getting a pair of lessers. So from what I understand a lesserXlesser should give me a chance of getting a clean looking bel, similar to the first picture??? Because that is what I want, and have seem to fall in love with. The really REALLY clean, white BEL's. So with lesserXlesser do I have a chance of getting one like what I want

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hey Rocky just so you know the animal in the first pic is actual a Phantom/Lesser Lucy (good luck getting a Phantom). The closest you will get to that is a Lesser/ Lesser Lucy good luck

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Originally Posted by Fallguy

If you want to get technical....

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/leucism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/leucistic

No harm. I just hate Wikipedia as a reference source, as anyone can enter information whether right or wrong.

There was a thread around here that went over this a while ago, I just cannot find it right now.

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i dont wish to take from the topic of this thread so im bringing it to the debate forum.
sorry to the thread author for de-railing it

i guess there isn't one here, thats beat

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

The chances of a hatching a leucistic from breeding a lesser and a mojave is actually 25% per egg with the remaining 75% split equally between mojaves, lessers and wild type.


dr del

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the percentage goes by gene number. i was always wondering and maybe you can help me. how many genes do ball pythons have?

Hi,

I'm not sure I am following what you mean. :oops:

We are discussing crossing two morph genes that seem to exist on the same location.

So in the simplest way of expressing it there are two halves of one gene involved and each half can be in one of three "states" - wild type, lesser and mojave.

To make the bel both halves of the gene have to be either lesser or mojave.

It is not possible, however, for the two halves of the gene to both be the same ( i.e. either lesser/ lesser or mojave/ mojave ) given the parentage.

If you are asking however how many genes are contained in the full DNA of the animal I have no clue I'm afraid.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

I'm not sure I am following what you mean. :oops:

We are discussing crossing two morph genes that seem to exist on the same location.

So in the simplest way of expressing it there are two halves of one gene involved and each half can be in one of three "states" - wild type, lesser and mojave.

To make the bel both halves of the gene have to be either lesser or mojave.

It is not possible, however, for the two halves of the gene to both be the same ( i.e. either lesser/ lesser or mojave/ mojave ) given the parentage.

If you are asking however how many genes are contained in the full DNA of the animal I have no clue I'm afraid.


dr del

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I dont know, and really dont care what the other guy is talking about. I'm just trying to figure out how to make a flawless very clean blue eyed lucy

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Originally Posted by rocky88

I dont know, and really dont care what the other guy is talking about. I'm just trying to figure out how to make a flawless very clean blue eyed lucy

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Very kind words :)

The Cleanest Lucy is bred through anything aside mojo as far as I know. However unless you are looking into getting one in about 3-4 years it would probably be cheaper just to purchase a clean BEL :)

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Originally Posted by eulenspiegel

Very kind words :)

The Cleanest Lucy is bred through anything aside mojo as far as I know. However unless you are looking into getting one in about 3-4 years it would probably be cheaper just to purchase a clean BEL :)

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I dont have that kind of money for a clean bell. So that was my plan to be able to produce one in about 3-4 years

Hmm but don't you think housing 2 Lesser Platinum and feeding them for 4 years will amount to the same price as just buying a BEL now?

You need to add in food, electricity, substrate, vet and tank setup.

2 Lesser Plats cost around 1000-1500 bucks together

That is almost half the cost of a BEL

Do bels that have more than 1 morph (lesser x mojave vs. lesser x lesser) have a higher value due to having more variety?
Or is that a personal preference like cleanliness?
Personally I would rather buy a bel that I could get the most combos out of...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eulenspiegel

Hmm but don't you think housing 2 Lesser Platinum and feeding them for 4 years will amount to the same price as just buying a BEL now?

You need to add in food, electricity, substrate, vet and tank setup.

2 Lesser Plats cost around 1000-1500 bucks together

That is almost half the cost of a BEL

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I could do that but the electricity isnt a problem because I work at the local gas and electric co. and get 50% off. The food isnt a problem because I recently ran into a nice older lady that owns a reptile rescue and she stops by her regular feed place and pics up about 1000 mice/ratts at a time and she gave me the same price she gets which is 20 cents a pop for large mice/med rats. And well the vet is the same as it is with every snake. And if I could make payments for that long I would buy a new car. But 350 now then 350 in a month is more than doable. I put my first payment friday and she will be in the mail on may-24th

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eulenspiegel

Hmm but don't you think housing 2 Lesser Platinum and feeding them for 4 years will amount to the same price as just buying a BEL now?

You need to add in food, electricity, substrate, vet and tank setup.

2 Lesser Plats cost around 1000-1500 bucks together

That is almost half the cost of a BEL

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Well, to extend that logic further, you could save the money you'd have spent buying the ingredients of the desired morph, and save the money you'd spend caring for them, and, in a few years, buy want you want outright. However, that would take all the fun out of it, wouldn't it?

I've thought that about a few of my projects, but nothing beats the joy of seeing that lovely morph emerging from an egg, especially after a few years of waiting.

That said, I'd go for buying the nicest female het lucy now, and start looking for a male for her in a year (since the female will take more time to get up to breeding weight/age).

We'll be looking for your BEL pics in the future!

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Originally Posted by tenai

let me elaborate before the flames come. in the case of all morphs, they are genetic deformities yes. however when speaking of leucistic animals its an occurrence that takes place when 2 co-doms (incomplete dominant) breed.
because of some animals breeding history some lukes come out cleaner than others (compare mojo/mojo to lesser/lesser pair breedings) this has to do with pedigree and what it took to create this morph in the beginning.

now heres a strange occurrence....take one that makes a dirty (mojo) and one that makes a clean (lesser). pair them up and they come out nearly flawless.
just keep in mind that although the chances are arguably 14% of hatching one.
thats 14% chance PER EGG. not per clutch. that means you have an 86% chance of something else per egg.

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Just curious where are you getting 14% chance?

if you are talking about crossing any of the BEL complex morphs they are accepted as being variants of the same gene so you so you only have 4 outcomes from the crossing... normal, morph1, morph2, and BEL. Thus the chance would be 25% per egg. It is the same as if you bred Mojo X Mojo, Lessor X Lessor, Butter X Butter and so on...

Also what part of Jersey are you in? I live on the Jersey Shore.

im just curious. does anybody have a pic of what a mojo x lesser looks like?

Hey Rocky, if you've been paying attention to the answers to your questions you will realize that the cheapest way to get a clean BEL is Mojave X Lesser.
-Steven

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Ok just so everybody knows the first picture is a Karma (Phantom X Lesser) totally different critter all together..

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Not really a different creature at all since Phantom is just another of the het BluEL alleles. The super Phantom is just a really dirty BluEL, all things being equal, when compared to a mojo x mojo (dirty BluEL) or one of the other combos (cleaner BluEL). The Phantom x Lesser fall into the "other combo" category