Male Blackbee

Here is a pic of my male black bee (black pastel, spider) which is also 100% het for ghost. She was produced and purchased from Colin Weaver.

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil...host_thumb.jpg

So to me it looks no different from a normal spider. What can you see that would distinguish it from just a normal spider.? Obviously if you know that it is a black pastel/spider you know that you can produce both black pastels and spiders from it, but if one didnt know is there some way to tell visually that thier spider is infact a blackpastel/spider. It would be nice to know so that in the future one could avoid a scam artist wh tries to tell you thier normal spider is a black pastel spider when its not just to try and get more $ out of you.

looks like a regular spider to me...how much did you pay for it?

I'd be having a word with Mr Colin Weaver If I was you.

Het hypo it may be, but I can't see anyhting other than spider in that.

perhaps the breeder had bred a spider to a black pastel and assumed all the offspring would be crosses. With spider being dominent and the black pastel being codom, the litter would be a mix of spiders, black pastels, i think some normals, and some black bees. I could be wrong and Im not sure on what the odds would be, Im thinking 25% of each. Im no good with the squares:rolleyes:.
either way he could have made that mistake.

ok so researched black pastel spider and found this
called a black widow
http://www.constrictors.com/images/B...BlackWidow.jpg

Even if he bred a black back, and a spider together....where is the 100% het ghost coming from? to get a 100% het animal you would need to have bred a visual morph to either of those to guarentee the animal carrying that gene.

I would give this guy a call

maybe it was a spider bred to a ghost but would that give you 100%het?

not sure where the black pastel would come into it though:confused:

Looks like a normal spider to me.

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Originally Posted by Kryptonian

perhaps the breeder had bred a spider to a black pastel and assumed all the offspring would be crosses. With spider being dominent and the black pastel being codom, the litter would be a mix of spiders, black pastels, i think some normals, and some black bees. I could be wrong and Im not sure on what the odds would be, Im thinking 25% of each. Im no good with the squares:rolleyes:.
either way he could have made that mistake.

ok so researched black pastel spider and found this
called a black widow
http://www.constrictors.com/images/B...BlackWidow.jpg

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that is a spider-pastel-black pastel, the Op thinks he has a spider-black pastel.

The snkae you've posted a picture of is a triple co-dom, not a double. That has 'regular' pastel thrown in there too.

It doesn't look like a Cinna bee / BP bee.. but its still a nice spider.. Maybe the pic is just misrepresenting the colors.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h.../cinnabee2.jpg

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Originally Posted by da_gleadless

maybe it was a spider bred to a ghost but would that give you 100%het?

not sure where the black pastel would come into it though:confused:

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But if it is in fact a blackbee het ghost the only way that would be possible is if one of the parents were either a hypo black pastel or a honeybee, hence where the 100% het would come in, but still would need a regular spider or a black pastel as the other!! Does the OP have a bigger clearer picture of the animal in question?

what did the breeder say the parents were?

Like someone else said, it would be some pretty expensive parents to produce that because it would take a hypo black pastel or a hypo spider to make it all of those things. Are you sure he didn't say black back het ghost bred to a spider?

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Originally Posted by Kryptonian

perhaps the breeder had bred a spider to a black pastel and assumed all the offspring would be crosses.

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I'm quite sure Colin Weaver knows genetics enough to know this is not true.

The snake could have come from a super black pastel x honeybee, and then all the offspring would be either black pastel het hypo or black bee het hypo. So even if black bees aren't visually different from regular spiders, the genetics would be known.

The pic does look a little darker and less golden than an average spider to me, but that could be the lighting or even just a spider on the darker end of the normal spider range, so I too would like to know if there is a visual clue we have all missed that makes it obviously a black bee.

Op??? where did you go?!

I am more than happy to defend against all you nay-sayers out there. Todd's animal is a Black Bee (which is what I call a Black Pastel Spider) and it is het ghost. It was produced by crossing a Honey Bee with an Ian G. line Black Pastel. The clutch produced normal spiders as well as black pastel spiders and there was ZERO ability to confuse the two when they came from the egg. Ian Gniazdowski also acquired one of the male black bees and I doubt any of you here are willing to suggest that he can't tell the difference between a spider and a black pastel spider.

A CinnaBee, a similar morph can be seen here: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ider-ball.html

And here is another cinnnabee: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ima.../cinnabee2.jpg

It is not an impressive morph to look at and I can see how a photo may not allow you to see the subtle indicators that make them recognizable. The Black Widow that was posted is not a CinnaBee nor a Black Bee. Get your facts straight.

So, thanks for slamming me for no reason. You guys are cool.

I'm a professional breeder and have no reason to dupe someone, especially a guy who is a friend (who Todd is). My name is my reputation in the business and cheating people will not help progress as a breeder.

Colin Weaver

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

I am more than happy to defend against all you nay-sayers out there. Todd's animal is a Black Bee (which is what I call a Black Pastel Spider) and it is het ghost. It was produced by crossing a Honey Bee with an Ian G. line Black Pastel. The clutch produced normal spiders as well as black pastel spiders and there was ZERO ability to confuse the two when they came from the egg. Ian Gniazdowski also acquired one of the male black bees and I doubt any of you here are willing to suggest that he can't tell the difference between a spider and a black pastel spider.

A CinnaBee, a similar morph can be seen here: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ider-ball.html

And here is another cinnnabee: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ima.../cinnabee2.jpg

It is not an impressive morph to look at and I can see how a photo may not allow you to see the subtle indicators that make them recognizable. The Black Widow that was posted is not a CinnaBee nor a Black Bee. Get your facts straight.

So, thanks for slamming me for no reason. You guys are cool.

I'm a professional breeder and have no reason to dupe someone, especially a guy who is a friend (who Todd is). My name is my reputation in the business and cheating people will not help progress as a breeder.

Colin Weaver

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Well there ya go. A Black bee it is...Thanks Colin. :gj:

I think he's purdy. The darker black almost makes his goldens come out more :)

Hey Colin, are you going to be breeding any more of these this season? Wonder what it would look like mixed with a super pastel? Or a super black pastel. Ohhhh, the possibilities are endless.

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

I am more than happy to defend against all you nay-sayers out there. Todd's animal is a Black Bee (which is what I call a Black Pastel Spider) and it is het ghost. It was produced by crossing a Honey Bee with an Ian G. line Black Pastel. The clutch produced normal spiders as well as black pastel spiders and there was ZERO ability to confuse the two when they came from the egg. Ian Gniazdowski also acquired one of the male black bees and I doubt any of you here are willing to suggest that he can't tell the difference between a spider and a black pastel spider.

A CinnaBee, a similar morph can be seen here: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ider-ball.html

And here is another cinnnabee: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ima.../cinnabee2.jpg

It is not an impressive morph to look at and I can see how a photo may not allow you to see the subtle indicators that make them recognizable. The Black Widow that was posted is not a CinnaBee nor a Black Bee. Get your facts straight.

So, thanks for slamming me for no reason. You guys are cool.

I'm a professional breeder and have no reason to dupe someone, especially a guy who is a friend (who Todd is). My name is my reputation in the business and cheating people will not help progress as a breeder.

Colin Weaver

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Thanks Colin for giving us insight into this matter.

I have OUTSTANDING animals from Colin Weaver in my collection and consider myself lucky to be able to acquire anything that he produces.

Colin is a close, personal friend and 110% the real deal. He's one of the best and brightest in the biz. On the very short list of people that I'm comfortable buying from sight unseen, Colin is at the top when I'm in the market for animals. He knows his stuff and produces animals of a quality that is rarely seen these days.

Colin, keep rocking those awesome animals and I'll keep buying!

-adam

I greatly respect Colin for all he has done, and I would like to think that he is a friend!

I believe what he says about this Black Bee, and although I can see where the photograph can lead people to believe that it is just a Spider, I trust Colin in what he says.

Maybe the gentleman didn't take a good photograph..

There is always more to the story than what is put on the internet. Always.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

There is always more to the story than what is put on the internet. Always.

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:gj::gj:

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

I am more than happy to defend against all you nay-sayers out there. Todd's animal is a Black Bee (which is what I call a Black Pastel Spider) and it is het ghost. It was produced by crossing a Honey Bee with an Ian G. line Black Pastel. The clutch produced normal spiders as well as black pastel spiders and there was ZERO ability to confuse the two when they came from the egg. Ian Gniazdowski also acquired one of the male black bees and I doubt any of you here are willing to suggest that he can't tell the difference between a spider and a black pastel spider.

A CinnaBee, a similar morph can be seen here: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ner...ider-ball.html

And here is another cinnnabee: http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ima.../cinnabee2.jpg

It is not an impressive morph to look at and I can see how a photo may not allow you to see the subtle indicators that make them recognizable. The Black Widow that was posted is not a CinnaBee nor a Black Bee. Get your facts straight.

So, thanks for slamming me for no reason. You guys are cool.

I'm a professional breeder and have no reason to dupe someone, especially a guy who is a friend (who Todd is). My name is my reputation in the business and cheating people will not help progress as a breeder.

Colin Weaver

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Thanks for clearing this up Colin.

Very, very nice! I would buy an animal sight unseen from Colin anytime just like I would from Adam, Heather or several others here on this site. Lots of potential from that snake for sure.

I didn't have a doubt in my mind about Colin, or the fact that that was a blackbee, I'm glad to see he came in to defend himself. And anyone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe a Black Widow =

• Spider
• Jungle Pastel
• Black Pastel

Edited, I was wrong. It was pastel, not Lesser.

I want to make it clear I was not saying that I do not believe that collin was lieing, I was just saying maybe the og got confused because of the look of the snake in the picture.

There are not many people I purchase from and Collin will be one of them. He really does know his stuff. If you get a chance go to his site and read his blogs. He has some very interesting views.

Collin,
Thanks for coming here and clearing things up.

Hey Colin,
I don't think anyone was "slamming" you, but seeing as there are countless individuals here that argue about their normal being a pastel, YB, fire....
Unless everyone is familiar with you (which they are not all) then there is bound to be some doubt, especially with a morph that does not stand out above the rest.
From what I have seen you know what you are doing and I personally did not doubt the identity of the snake.
Keep up the good work.
And don't worry about it, your reply is what was being anticipated.
-Steven

This is happening more and more.....

People try to "SAVE THE DAY" by busting a "scam" artist.

Get lives people. Not everyone is out to rip someone off.

I like how everyone that actually thought Colin would rip someone off have absolutely no idea of who or what they are talking about.

3rd post here, and calling a professional breeder (who has done business with tons of people) a scammer.
How ridiculous is that?

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Originally Posted by mason

I'd be having a word with Mr Colin Weaver If I was you.

Het hypo it may be, but I can't see anyhting other than spider in that.

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Not a very well thought out post for your 3rd post on this forum. You probably should have run a search and realized Colin is one of most knoledgable and well respected keepers/breeders on this site.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

This is happening more and more.....

People try to "SAVE THE DAY" by busting a "scam" artist.

Get lives people. Not everyone is out to rip someone off.

I like how everyone that actually thought Colin would rip someone off have absolutely no idea of who or what they are talking about.

3rd post here, and calling a professional breeder (who has done business with tons of people) a scammer.
How ridiculous is that?

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I and most of the other posters were not trying to bust a scammer. We were just stating that the animal just looked like a normal spider. As Colin said, “It is not an impressive morph to look at and I can see how a photo may not allow you to see the subtle indicators that make them recognizable.” We were just looking for clarification, which Colin was nice enough to give us.

First off, thanks to Colin for coming back to "defend" his snake before I had a chance. When put side by side the black bee and the spider has quite difference appearances. I am no where near a good photographer but in general the black bees colors are darker and tend to have much more white showing then a typical spider. The head tends to have a slightly washed out look. I totally understand that the snake is not a "wow" snake and that is not why I posted it. For you all that can appreciate the genetic possibilities with this snake you know why I financially sacrificed a little to obtain one. Right now he has bred with two normal females, but next year he will be hooking up with a black pastel and a ghost. If everything goes as planned I will be picking up a black pewter to go with him. Think of the potential when bred to a black pewter. Its amazing what this snake can bring to the table. I will talk to Colin and see if I can bring it over to his place in the near future and get some good pics...maybe a pic with a normal spider so you all can see the differences. Anyway, thanks for all the responses...Todd

ok so i dont know you colin, but from what i have heard is your a great guy and very knowledgeible breeder, but heres the deal i think people were stating that its not a black spider and not that they were slamming you, and to be honest it does look like a regular spider, if its so apperent that it is a black spider show more pics next to a spider, i really like black spiders and im not saying it isnt one, so before everyone starts getting on me, im not saying your lieing,
im starting to get a little worried about this forum, everyone thinks they know everything and people are just rude, lets just settle down :gj:

sorry i just relized some people did call you out, that is rediculous especilly from a couple people who dont know crap about this stuff anyways,

At this moment I'm trying to figure out why my website is down so I'm not super-focused on this thread but once I get it back up I will use it to better address this discussion. I'm glad to provide a thorough explanation and detailed pictures showing why a black pastel spider is what it is.

Before producing Black Pastel Spiders for myself I had only seen Cinnamon Spiders in John Berry's book and one that Brian Barczyk had on a table at a show. In photo and in person I though, "meh". I decided to cross the black pastel with a honey bee because I wanted to know if black pastel would look any different than cinnamon. In a way I was dinkering. I wondered if there was a big enough difference between the black pastel and cinnamon genes that it would make the black pastel spider do something weird. It didn't. In hindsight it did exactly what I could have guessed (but was hoping it wouldn't); it made the spider darker. The CinnaBee's I have seen seem to be lighter (which makes sense since cinnamon pastels are lighter than black pastels). When they were born there was no mistaking what they were but I was still going, "meh". I wasn't blown away by them. The albino spiders that hatched around the same time were much more captivating.

Spider pastels are BAM! Bumble Bee's are amazing. Everybody knows this. Compared to bumble bees, spider black pastels are a big visual disappointment. But that's not why they are so cool. In combination with the het ghost they are genetic powerhouses. I'm totally cool with a snake that doesn't wow people because I know it's an intermediate to something else wonderful. I'm a breeder. Projects take time and the black bee, wherever it is leading, is only a step along the way. To the best of my knowledge nobody has been producing black pastel spiders (probably because the cinnamon spider is so unimpressive looking compared to other spider morphs and because we're all such a secretive bunch). I think most people just chose to use their black pastel females for other stuff. I took a gamble with one of mine and I think it paid off. You could hide my black bees in a sea of normal spiders and I'd pick them out in a heartbeat. I don't think pictures on the Internet are reflecting that they have that kind of distinction.

As a final note: I can respect that the photo Todd took is not compelling so I find no fault with people wondering what's up. People can say whatever they want to say but Todd and I are cool because I know what I sold him and he knows what he got.

Now, I'm off to fix my web site....

Regards,

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

At this moment I'm trying to figure out why my website is down so I'm not super-focused on this thread but once I get it back up I will use it to better address this discussion. I'm glad to provide a thorough explanation and detailed pictures showing why a black pastel spider is what it is.

Before producing Black Pastel Spiders for myself I had only seen Cinnamon Spiders in John Berry's book and one that Brian Barczyk had on a table at a show. In photo and in person I though, "meh". I decided to cross the black pastel with a honey bee because I wanted to know if black pastel would look any different than cinnamon. In a way I was dinkering. I wondered if there was a big enough difference between the black pastel and cinnamon genes that it would make the black pastel spider do something weird. It didn't. In hindsight it did exactly what I could have guessed (but was hoping it wouldn't); it made the spider darker. The CinnaBee's I have seen seem to be lighter (which makes sense since cinnamon pastels are lighter than black pastels). When they were born there was no mistaking what they were but I was still going, "meh". I wasn't blown away by them. The albino spiders that hatched around the same time were much more captivating.

Spider pastels are BAM! Bumble Bee's are amazing. Everybody knows this. Compared to bumble bees, spider black pastels are a big visual disappointment. But that's not why they are so cool. In combination with the het ghost they are genetic powerhouses. I'm totally cool with a snake that doesn't wow people because I know it's an intermediate to something else wonderful. I'm a breeder. Projects take time and the black bee, wherever it is leading, is only a step along the way. To the best of my knowledge nobody has been producing black pastel spiders (probably because the cinnamon spider is so unimpressive looking compared to other spider morphs and because we're all such a secretive bunch). I think most people just chose to use their black pastel females for other stuff. I took a gamble with one of mine and I think it paid off. You could hide my black bees in a sea of normal spiders and I'd pick them out in a heartbeat. I don't think pictures on the Internet are reflecting that they have that kind of distinction.

As a final note: I can respect that the photo Todd took is not compelling so I find no fault with people wondering what's up. People can say whatever they want to say but Todd and I are cool because I know what I sold him and he knows what he got.

Now, I'm off to fix my web site....

Regards,

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Well stated Colin!!! Some 2-gene animals need a third in the mix to make ALL the difference. Combine the Black Bee with Pastels, Butters, Fires etc. and your are cookin with gas. :gj:

I totally agree that I think that this snake will be an amazing powerhouse when it comes to breeding. There are so many things I would like to do with this guy. Here is just a few lines I am thinking along: breeding it with a honey bee would create ghosts, spiders, black pastels, black bees, honeybees, and black pastel honey bees.
Breed it with a black pewter would create black pastels, pastels, spiders, black pewters, super black pastel, silver bullet, bumblebee, black bee, black pewter spider, super black pastel spider, and silver bullet spider. Plus all of the offspring would be 50% het ghost
I could go on and on about its potential but I think you all can understand where I am coming from. Thank you for everyone that has added constuctively to this thread. Todd

well colin,
you didnt dissapoint, you are clearly a very intelitgent guy and very knowledged when it comes to breeding, and you seem like a great guy, i know i havent always got the best rap in this forum, but its because im so passionit about this hobby, but i would be glad to do buisness with you in the future colin, i have been doing this for a long time aswell, and i have always tried to do combos that others dont do, thats the funniest part, i hopefully will have some big suprises to show all you this season!!!!!!!:gj:

p.s. i know my grammer is god awful but hopefully you all can read it,
thanks

In hopes of helping everybody better understand the subtle differences some morphs have I have written a short article that explains (yes, with pictures) the black bee ball python (aka, black pastel spider).

You can read it here: http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...-black-pastel/


Regards,

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Originally Posted by herpenthusiast

Not a very well thought out post for your 3rd post on this forum. You probably should have run a search and realized Colin is one of most knoledgable and well respected keepers/breeders on this site.

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eh?

Admittedly I sometimes forget that I lurked for years before registering and posting but what exactly wasn't well thought out about my post? i'm supposed to accept that just because he's colin weaver he can't make a mistake?


I posted what I was thinking, it didn't look like anything but a spider to me, so thats what I said. I didn't make any accusations, shout or bash anyone.

I don't care how well respected someone is, they can all make mistakes. Bob clark once sent me (to the UK!) a cinnamon (crappy example of one) instead of a lemon pastel (top notch example of one). Should I have shut up because it was Bob clark?

I wasn't out to get at anybody, all I saw was spider, I commented accordingly. I didn't infer he was a scammer, if I thought as much i'd have said as much explicitly. Don't put words in my mouth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

In hopes of helping everybody better understand the subtle differences some morphs have I have written a short article that explains (yes, with pictures) the black bee ball python (aka, black pastel spider).

You can read it here: http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...-black-pastel/


Regards,

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Interesting article, made a good read, thanks.

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Originally Posted by mason

eh?

I don't care how well respected someone is, they can all make mistakes. Bob clark once sent me (to the UK!) a cinnamon (crappy example of one) instead of a lemon pastel (top notch example of one). Should I have shut up because it was Bob clark?

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No, but publishing someone's honest mistake on a public forum isn't the answer either.

Mason, you seem like a knoledgeable guy and a nice person. I am sorry to have jumped on you. I am on morphine and valium(knee surgery)and have been a little moody. If anything, both of my posts directed at you weren't well thought out.

They should add posting on forums as something to avoid in addition driving and operating heavy machinery while medicated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by herpenthusiast

Mason, you seem like a knoledgeable guy and a nice person. I am sorry to have jumped on you. I am on morphine and valium(knee surgery)and have been a little moody. If anything, both of my posts directed at you weren't well thought out.

They should add posting on forums as something to avoid in addition driving and operating heavy machinery while medicated.

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wow! thats interesting why not just say it wasnt your best post, blaming it on meds is a little weird

Quote:

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Originally Posted by herpenthusiast

No, but publishing someone's honest mistake on a public forum isn't the answer either.

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It wasn't quite an honest mistake, it's a long story and you are right in that it's not one for here. we'll be charitable and call it very poor organisational skills for the purposes of closing this discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by herpenthusiast

Mason, you seem like a knoledgeable guy and a nice person. I am sorry to have jumped on you. I am on morphine and valium(knee surgery)and have been a little moody. If anything, both of my posts directed at you weren't well thought out.

They should add posting on forums as something to avoid in addition driving and operating heavy machinery while medicated.

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Apology accepted, like I said I wasn't actually one of those who tried to label colin a scammer, I just wanted to know the parentage is all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

In hopes of helping everybody better understand the subtle differences some morphs have I have written a short article that explains (yes, with pictures) the black bee ball python (aka, black pastel spider).

You can read it here: http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...-black-pastel/


Regards,

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For those who didn't read my blog post on this topic:

• Top Image: Normal Spider (Sibling to Black Bee)
• Center Image: Black Bee (Spider Black Pastel)
• Bottom Image: Spider Yellow Belly

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/wp-cont...omparison2.jpg