Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

Everybody who breeds ball pythons needs to read this and give it some serious thought:

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...imals/#respond

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

Everybody who breeds ball pythons needs to read this and give it some serious thought:

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...imals/#respond

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Its called price speculation it happens in loads of markets. The difference is that other markets will go back up..

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Its called price speculation it happens in loads of markets. The difference is that other markets will go back up..

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I'm not interested in other markets; I'm interested in the ball python market and the means by which we are determining our prices is flawed and detrimental. And there is no coming back from it.

Saying, "that's just the way it works" and leaving it at that isn't acceptable. Because it's not the way it works. False market forces are driving prices and people need to become more aware.

Interesting read. It happens in all markets.

My feeling is that an item for sale is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it, and if you can affect how much someone is willing to pay for a snake by posting a few ads on a website, well that item was overvalued in the first place.

Hmm, this is very interesting.

I had no idea.

Interesting read,

When do you expect this new site will be up Colin?

I completely agree with the article, I've been thinking about that same scenario for years, and I'm glad to see a website like this coming along so I don't have to do it myself. I think I've said that before. Great job, guy!

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Interesting read. It happens in all markets.

My feeling is that an item for sale is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it, and if you can affect how much someone is willing to pay for a snake by posting a few ads on a website, well that item was overvalued in the first place.

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So with cbb yearling normals being about $20-$50, you're saying they were overpriced at $100, even though it costs at least $150 in food alone to care for that baby for that year? A pastel was over priced when they cost more than $100, even though the breeder paid $800 for the parents, and $$50-$100 just to hatch the eggs and feed the babies for a few months? The demand is substantially higher than we price our animals at, and kingsnake.com is the reason for it.

Ok, here is my response to the article. My father and I own/run an online distribution business in the remote controlled airplane market and the one thing that I noticed is that the large name brand companies control the prices in the market. Companies like Futaba, Hitec, and JR are the large scale manufacturers of the high quality radio equipment. They are able to set the prices for their products as they see fit because they have a HUGE market presence.

I think the reason that there is no real price control in the Ball Python market is due to the lack of large market presences. We can all agree that there are “Big Boys” in our market. Just take a look at Nerd’s website, but the problem is that they don’t sell enough snakes to control the market. The number of small time breeders outweigh the serious breeders “Plain and simple.” Then, all of these small time breeders that make up a large portion of the market enjoy the benefits of their lower prices, so where are their incentives to keep prices high?

Now, if the goal is to control price and the internet is the source of fear for price damage. Shouldn’t the “Big boys” setup an online venture of their own? Perhaps have a one stop shop for everything ball pythons. There would have to be some serious compromises between the partners participating in the web store, but if it became the new place to buy snakes online rather than kingsnake.com the goal of controlling prices would be achieved.

Just my take,

Sean

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Originally Posted by Bobsean

Ok, here is my response to the article. My father and I own/run an online distribution business in the remote controlled airplane market and the one thing that I noticed is that the large name brand companies control the prices in the market. Companies like Futaba, Hitec, and JR are the large scale manufacturers of the high quality radio equipment. They are able to set the prices for their products as they see fit because they have a HUGE market presence.

I think the reason that there is no real price control in the Ball Python market is due to the lack of large market presences. We can all agree that there are “Big Boys” in our market. Just take a look at Nerd’s website, but the problem is that they don’t sell enough snakes to control the market. The number of small time breeders outweigh the serious breeders “Plain and simple.” Then, all of these small time breeders that make up a large portion of the market enjoy the benefits of their lower prices, so where are their incentives to keep prices high?

Now, if the goal is to control price and the internet is the source of fear for price damage. Shouldn’t the “Big boys” setup an online venture of their own? Perhaps have a one stop shop for everything ball pythons. There would have to be some serious compromises between the partners participating in the web store, but if it became the new place to buy snakes online rather than kingsnake.com the goal of controlling prices would be achieved.

Just my take,

Sean

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Hello price fixing.

I think there are laws in place to prevent this very thing from occurring.

Ok, I guess I had that one coming...

Well then, we are forever blessed with morphs becoming more available to the average college student!

Also because people can't take 2 remote controls and start breeding their own that's kind of apples and oranges. Anytime there is a bad economy the sale of non essential items (pets) will be affected as people find it harder to afford essential goods. Hopefully it won't take too long to come out of this recession as we have all previous recessions.I think that such a site to compare prices may well be helpful to assist either a seller or a buyer in determining a stable going rate.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

So with cbb yearling normals being about $20-$50, you're saying they were overpriced at $100, even though it costs at least $150 in food alone to care for that baby for that year? A pastel was over priced when they cost more than $100, even though the breeder paid $800 for the parents, and $$50-$100 just to hatch the eggs and feed the babies for a few months? The demand is substantially higher than we price our animals at, and kingsnake.com is the reason for it.

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I'm saying that the numerous multi-thousand dollar ball pythons experienced some over-valuing based on speculation of future demand for offspring(though not all were over valued! I can't picture anything more difficult to predict future demand for than designer pet snakes).

And the sad fact of the matter is that for many local markets, the demand for normal BPs is low enough that it is hard to sell them for a profit. Craigslist adoptions alone did a serious number on hatchling/yearling normal BP prices.

The market is driven by supply and demand, but this is a particularly difficult market for sellers to judge the demand for their products.

I'm not saying that the article is inaccurate, but we shouldn't blame a drop in prices for morphs solely on liars and scammers. There's plenty of those who try to keep prices high as well(I've got a piebald in Nigeria I'd love to sell you :P)

I'm confused.

Some of you seem concerned that prices are too high.

Yet others seem concerned that prices are too low.

Perhaps the motivation behind our/your deep concerns should be brought out and examined.

Is it money, profit, getting mine because I've done the work, that is the motivation here or is it get back at some assclowns, or is it purely philanthropic?

Motivations matter.

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

Everybody who breeds ball pythons needs to read this and give it some serious thought:

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...imals/#respond

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Colin,

1) I agree with everything you said about kingsnake; being that the actual, and not perceived rarity of morphs should reflect more realistic prices. But, in the real world, perception is reality.

2) Unfortunately, in a free unregulated market, pricing is whatever someone is willing to sell an animal for, (real or not) and furthering the problem, kingsnake is like ebay; everybody knows how to open a browser and comparison shop for anything. If Sony sells a certain Camera for $1000, but someone can go on eBay and find a seller who will part with one (of like and kind) for $650, all things considered equal; feedback, reputation, whatever, then which one do you think the average person will buy?

3) Next, breeders like Barczyk, McCurley, Clark, Wysocki, Kahl, Bell, Sutherland and Tracy Barker are who made this industry what it is (among others), but being legends of an industry has advantages and disadvantages; the advantages are notoriety, being a big name, having the most kick ass morphs, having stuff you refuse to show pics of, and also selling at a premium (at home and abroad), but for the smaller enthusiast and/or breeder there are perfectly good animals that sell for much less, that are of the same quality, same morph, etc.; (nobody has exclusive access to genes, other than truly rare specimens, at which point 95% can't afford in the first place.

4) Finally, the Internet is a place where someone can be anyone, offer anything, real or not, and nobody is ever going to stop these types of actions (other than creating some sort of system where listings have to show verifiable proof of life, which in the end would prove to costly, to difficult to regulate and to complicated to prevent circumvention.

BrandonBalls

I agree, but the I think the biggest problem isn't that people are using kingsnake to set their prices -- it's that people aren't willing to hold on to their hatchlings for as long as it takes to sell them at the price they want. That's something that I just don't get -- as the snake gets bigger, you can sell it for more. So why rush to dump them so quick? I can't even count how many times I've seen an animal up for sale and the seller drops the price every week until it's sold. If you can't afford or don't have the room to raise the animals you produce, you shouldn't be breeding. Unfortunately, there's always going to be people like that out there. The only thing you can do is stick to your prices and hold out for what you want. The demand is out there; you just have to be willing to wait for it.

I have been pricing not only Balls, but also Rainbow Boas and a couple others over the past few months. Now, as was stated earlier, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for any given item, whether it be a car, house, pet...whatever.
As much as I'd love to own one of the "rare" Ball morphs, there is simply no way I'm going to shell out thousands or even hundreds of dollars for a snake that has a unique color combo or design. Now, I'm not saying the snakes like this aren't worth it, I'm just saying I'd rather be able to invest in more snakes at a lower price rather than one at an outrageous price just to say I own a "rare breed".
I also don't understand the conception that the minute a clutch is hatched the babies need to be sold post haste. I would rather buy a snake that is a year old, whose health has been verified and is on a sort of regular schedule for feeding and so forth rather then buy a baby that is already stressed and trying to figure out which end is up.
If a breeder is strapped for room, then that person should be honest enough with himself to admit he's overwhelmed and at the least his pets should skip the next breeding cycle. But, I can see how it would be hard to do that, especially if you're trying to cross morphs and so forth. Plus, I think hatching a clutch you oversaw id probably one of the most rewarding parts of owning these snakes, but that's just me.
I just wish some of the "rarer" morphs and so forth were more affordable for the "small guys", but I'm happy with what I've got. ;)

Below is a post that I made on this topic almost 2 years ago on Ralphs board.
Here is a link to the orginal thread

http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/fo...74&whichpage=1

My post is made on page 5.



Posted - 06/27/2007 : 12:13:31 PM
This industry is different than most, joe blow cannot walk into best buy, purchase a few items and then next year be shooting tvs out their rear end. People are not prepared for the work or care thus need to move their product and are afraid they will never be able to sell their product next to the big boys so they must drop their prices, it takes a little intestinal fortitude to run any business and most people just don't have what it takes to actually be successful.

The other enormous problem is that people want to look at this as a business, want to make their money back but don't want to spend money to sell their product. No offense to KS but people who want to sell 10, 20, 50 ,100K worth of animals and only want to spend a $100 a year for their marketing budget on KS are the ones who complain the most about stagnant product who drop their prices because its not moving. Within weeks they'll drop their price $500 but would never think of dropping $500 on a banner, some business cards and a table at a show where they can display all of their product rather than just discounting a single animal to make it go away.

On the other hand the guys that do spend the money to go out and find new customers, often go about it terribly wrong. They have one bad show or don't sell anything at a tiny show and give up, feeling its pointless when in reality people want to buy from people they are comfortable with. They want to see your name on KS and other sites, they want to see you at a few shows know your going to be around and if your sitting behind your table with a stick up your butt, your arms crossed and frustrated who in their right mind would want to buy from you.

This business is literally what you make it. You want to wholesale your product you can, you want to make an extra $10,000 a year or literally a million a year, its entirely possible, but its a business, a new business and its a hell of a lot of work. There is absolutely no better way to make a living in my opinion than what we do however you have to fight for it and work damn hard.

I completely sell out every year without any trouble and do very little trading, I'm not afraid to hold onto my animals and dont care what others sell their stuff for, I get what they are worth to me. I sell some early and I sell a lot at the end of the season at 300 - 500 grams, by then many are out of stock, the whores have run out and come November I normally get the prices that in September people thought I was crazy for asking.

I have seen the exact opposite. Kingsnake prices are generally higher than what the the show prices are.
I bought a female het g-stripe from ECRB at the Hamburgh show for much less than KS prices. I also picked up a male piebald at that show for much less than you could find on KS.
Seems to me it works both ways.
From what I have seen on KS it seems like over priced animals are the norm.

I can under stand he high prices (wants to help cover the cost of the animals and maintaince), but Iam one who does ( right now unplanned breeding ) but i plan to breed for the joy of it and the fact I will hopefully prodcue a pied. I not after the themoney I doing it for the joy of being able to prove out the morph I got hets for. Plus being disable means i don't have a extra money to be buy a mutli grand snake. I can under stand he big guyswanting to keep the price high but I cna understand the low end price too. I don't really have anything I can give up ( do with out ) to buy a snake, I do without all the time I am use to it. but I still spend time drooling and wishing I could get some morph ( truthfully I don't like the bees and pinstripe morphs.) but I still can't see people paying too high a price or too low of a price. ( the at why low end snakes are on craigslist) they are consider throw away pets. I see so many snakes that are offered up due ot this or that reason and most of it is they no longer willnig ot spend the 30 + a monthto take care of the animal. In some cases it really the school,health issues but in a lot of cases they just tired of the animal.

I think a price range needs ot be set aswell as a possible %for change each year.. ( example a snake cost 3000 first year by yea 4 that price can be x% lower given the number being offered so that snake may not be about 2000 ) their should be a limit ot the price on some snakes thes 12,000 + s prices are really crazy I think since only some rich person can afford to spend 10 grand or more on a snake. I think the care of the snake should be more imporant than the price you can get for it .
so joe can buy the 2000 snake does that mean it have a happy,safe life ( guy get bord and toss it in the back yard ) or just cause they are poorer and can't afford it does not mean they won't treasure the snake. these are things I look at when I adopt out any of my rescues and such.

mechnut450 - Why not save up the money for the pied? You spend $500 on a pair of hets, then raise them up for 3 years before you can really even have a chance at producing a pied. If you were to start saving with the goal of raising $2000 in 3 years, chances are you would have what you needed to buy a pied in LESS than 3 years due to the price drops every year.

I also completely agree with you, Neil. I'm a small fry, hobbiest, but that is my business model. It takes a little longer, but the demand is out there, and I now only have one male mojave and a couple of normal males left. I set my prices to what I was willing to accept for my animals and I got it with very little advertising. If I end up hatching a greater number of animals this season I will do the same thing, spending a little more money and time advertising and buying tables at shows. It baffles me how so many smaller breeders rob themselves of the money they would easily get if they weren't so scared to hold their animals for a few more weeks.

I see a lot of "Price manipulation is unfair, unless it's up making the prices go up"

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I'm not saying that the article is inaccurate, but we shouldn't blame a drop in prices for morphs solely on liars and scammers. There's plenty of those who try to keep prices high as well(I've got a piebald in Nigeria I'd love to sell you :P)

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Most of the Cameroon/Nigerian scammers actually advertise ridiculously low prices. I agree that liars/scammers probably aren't the only to blame, the joe blow seller who underprices his snakes for quick sale are probably more to blame. My advice to newer sellers who aren't sure how to price thier snakes is: produce A grade snakes, take professional quality photos with clean backgrounds, make your ad look every bit as professional as the big guys, and price 'em like the big boys. It worked for me this year in spite of the recession. Let's face it, most of us in the hobby are freaks who want the best and will pay a little extra for it. Leave the low grade stuff for the bargain hunters. They will probably lose interest in thier collection and sell it on craigslist to another bargain hunter anyway. If you fall into the bargain hunter category, keep you stinkin' mouth shut about the bargain you got. I know this goes against your very nature, but you are only driving the value of your own animals down.

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Originally Posted by herpenthusiast

Most of the Cameroon/Nigerian scammers actually advertise ridiculously low prices. I agree that liars/scammers probably aren't the only to blame, the joe blow seller who underprices his snakes for quick sale are probably more to blame. My advice to newer sellers who aren't sure how to price thier snakes is: produce A grade snakes, take professional quality photos with clean backgrounds, make your ad look every bit as professional as the big guys, and price 'em like the big boys. It worked for me this year in spite of the recession. Let's face it, most of us in the hobby are freaks who want the best and will pay a little extra for it. Leave the low grade stuff for the bargain hunters. They will probably lose interest in thier collection and sell it on craigslist to another bargain hunter anyway. If you fall into the bargain hunter category, keep you stinkin' mouth shut about the bargain you got. I know this goes against your very nature, but you are only driving the value of your own animals down.

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Totally agree.

I think a lot of people selling at low prices don't plan on keeping any unsold animals so better to sell them at $150 and get rid of them than wait a few weeks/months to sell them for an appropriate price. It seems irresponsible to me. Look at pure breed dogs... everyone knows to find a good breeder and the "bargain hunters" go to back yard breeders for puppies of low quality. You may save $500 on an English Bulldog but what are you going to spend extra at the vet throughout its life. Not saying its exactly the same with BPs but personally I would rather spend more on a great looking morph than less on one thats "ok". There are just people out there that don't care if their pastel is browned out or bright yellow, and thats fine, you love your snake no matter what.

The best solution seems to be the one where breeders hold firm to there prices and the buyers who want great animals from a reputable breeder will eventually buy them. And a record of current FAIR MARKET VALUE would be extremely helpful too.

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Originally Posted by herpenthusiast

They will probably lose interest in thier collection and sell it on craigslist to another bargain hunter anyway. If you fall into the bargain hunter category, keep you stinkin' mouth shut about the bargain you got. I know this goes against your very nature, but you are only driving the value of your own animals down.

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Are you selling animals or raising children?

It's all well and good to have a serious care for where your babies go, but seriously, the above is WAY overboard.

If you got a good deal, why should you shut up about it? So someone else doesn't get it? That's a nice way to treat your fellow snake keepers.

Value is what you can get for your snake. If you're happy selling pieds for 500.00 then that's their value to you. Who gives a flippy dip what anyone else says?

A LOT of you folks seem to want to dictate what you can get for YOUR snakes. Good luck with that.

I breed FWCs. I think I'm the originator of the hypo strain in this snake. I've been selling hets and hypos for years and superhypos for a couple of years. I produce a fair number of these snakes as do several other breeders. They sell theirs, which are often related to mine, for half what I do. Crap happens. I usually have babies year round because I don't lower my prices past what I want. You will probably see the same ad on KS week after week but you know what? I'll sell em all for what I want if I'm willing to wait. I could sell them all for less just like the other guys, and quicker too, but I'm not in any hurry so I wait it out.

You can't control, nor should you be able to, what anyone else sells their stock for.

You can, however, quit complaining about how unfair it is that joe-nobody sold his babies for half what you, YOU, think he should have and is now happily vacationing in Vegas while you shovel snake poop and people tell you you're over charging. Welcome to Life 101, sometimes it sucks.

BUT, when you get over it, it feels good to get what YOU know your babies are worth, even if you did have to wait 6 months to get it.

Heck, those calkings you see at every show for 20 bucks or less.... back when I first started breeding them big time I was getting more than 100.00 each.

Times change, people grow their babies up, prices go down.

A bunch of you talk about not breeding for the money but for the love of your snakes and seeing them do what they do. If you are not lying through your pants, then what, if ANYTHING, you get for your babies is irrelevant and you should politely excuse yourself from any conversation regarding prices since they don't matter to you. If you don't care about the money, why does it matter what they sell for?

I think is sucks that my many generations of work calkings are sold so cheaply by so many, but such is life. I'm not real fond of the fact that I help cheap FWC breeders sell but I'm not a discount house, and, such is life.

If you can't handle the ups and down down downs of this market, perhaps stamps or coins would be of more interest and less stress. Give it consideration.

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

Totally agree.

I think a lot of people selling at low prices don't plan on keeping any unsold animals so better to sell them at $150 and get rid of them than wait a few weeks/months to sell them for an appropriate price. It seems irresponsible to me. Look at pure breed dogs... everyone knows to find a good breeder and the "bargain hunters" go to back yard breeders for puppies of low quality. You may save $500 on an English Bulldog but what are you going to spend extra at the vet throughout its life. Not saying its exactly the same with BPs but personally I would rather spend more on a great looking morph than less on one thats "ok". There are just people out there that don't care if their pastel is browned out or bright yellow, and thats fine, you love your snake no matter what.

The best solution seems to be the one where breeders hold firm to there prices and the buyers who want great animals from a reputable breeder will eventually buy them. And a record of current FAIR MARKET VALUE would be extremely helpful too.

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Do you breed for money or fun?

Heres where the love of the animals comes in. I'm with Wes on this. If I never sale another snake guess what..I'm happy. I don't mind the feeding/cleaning/biteing/hissing. Ok I lied the biteing I mind.

Like Wes said

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You can, however, quit complaining about how unfair it is that joe-nobody sold his babies for half what you, YOU, think he should have and is now happily vacationing in Vegas while you shovel snake poop and people tell you you're over charging.

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If your more worried about the money..as a hobbiest breeder..Your in it for the wrong reasons. No if you got to sale snakes to put food on the table..then by all means whine about prices..I'm just not to that point in this venture.....YET. :D

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Value is what you can get for your snake. If you're happy selling pieds for 500.00 then that's their value to you. Who gives a flippy dip what anyone else says?

A LOT of you folks seem to want to dictate what you can get for YOUR snakes. Good luck with that.

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Agreed. In this time, I think you get what you pay for. An expensive morph from a breeder you trust is most likely going to be well worth it. Rather than a cheap one off KS.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Agreed. In this time, I think you get what you pay for. An expensive morph from a breeder you trust is most likely going to be well worth it. Rather that a cheap one of KS.

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No, that's not my point, though it is a sometimes valid one.

Who the breeder is isn't so important anymore.

As was mentioned, no one has an exclusive on genes for long. The hets go, the visuals go and though it may be a while, the very same snake the orginator produces and sells for 1000.00 can also be produced by joe-nobody, who bought that bloodline, for 500.00.

If the babies are healthy, it doesn't matter who you get them from.

Does Brian B, or ian or any of those other guys know more than members here? I know Brian is a swell guy, but are his snakes any better because he's Brian?

IF it's just the snake you want and not the privilege of bragging about WHO you got it from, then any snake that was healthy and had the looks and genetics you wanted SHOULD suffice for your needs, whether it comes from one of the big guys or not.

With Ball Pythons, unless you're getting in on something very very, like first or second generation new, there is no need to buy from a big name and pay big money.

There is NOTHING WRONG with buying for less IF you're happy with the purchase.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Do you breed for money or fun?

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I totally breed for the fun of it!!! I love my animals and plan my breeding projects very carefully. I am 100% committed to keeping every animal I breed if I am not able to sell them.

Why do you ask?

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

I totally breed for the fun of it!!! I love my animals and plan my breeding projects very carefully. I am 100% committed to keeping every animal I breed if I am not able to sell them.

Why do you ask?

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Wanted to know.

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A LOT of you folks seem to want to dictate what you can get for YOUR snakes. Good luck with that.

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I do dictate what I get for my animals.. I sold all of my spider males last year for 300.00 plus shipping..It took me a little longer to sale them at that price..

I think what most people get their panties in a bunch over is that the animals don't fly out of the tubs at the prices they have set.. But me I don't care..If you don't want to pay 350.00 for a female spider then she'll be 600.00 at 12 months old, if she's still here at 18 months she becomes NFS and I produce some kick ass combos with her..No skin off my nose.

For me at least, it's not about being mad at people who value their snakes at lower than market prices, but at the entire situation of a handful of these guys driving the direction of the market, which works different than every other market in the free world. I don't mind holding onto my hatchlings as long as it takes to sell them, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't suck that the entire market is driven by a few people who are shooting themselves in the foot with their pricing so they can sell out in a few weeks, while destroying the real market values of all these animals.

I'm upset that in any other market, if an item sold out for $500 with new stock not being available for 6 months, you can believe that after those 6 months, they would hit the shelves with the same price tag, not a $100 price tag. It's so obvious that the demand is there at the higher prices, so it upsets me that a handful of people undercut market pricing and get followed be another handful of people in a never ending cycle, until the norm is giving all these rare animals away for less than it costs to produce them. I don't understand why so many people are paying good money for a pair to breed, raising them, breeding them, feeding and caring for the babies, then accepting less money than cost, when they could all be charging exponentially more if they could risk holding onto them for a few extra weeks. Why even breed and sell them if that's your business model?

The Horticulture industry puts trademarks and royalties on genetics. If So&So grower produces a new cultivar of Hemerocallis and they trademark it, those genetics are owned and it is illegal to propagate and SELL that specific plant. To do so would require licensing and a royalty would be charged on each plant sold.

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

The Horticulture industry puts trademarks and royalties on genetics. If So&So grower produces a new cultivar of Hemerocallis and they trademark it, those genetics are owned and it is illegal to propagate and SELL that specific plant. To do so would require licensing and a royalty would be charged on each plant sold.

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I sincerely hope this never happens to the herp world.

[QUOTE=wilomn;1032470]IF it's just the snake you want and not the privilege of bragging about WHO you got it from, then any snake that was healthy and had the looks and genetics you wanted SHOULD suffice for your needs, whether it comes from one of the big guys or not.QUOTE]

Yeah, you're right. Otherwise there would be no demand for new breeders. I would still rather get it from a breeder, than a pet store. At least its easier to get a hold of one when something goes wrong, or I just have a simple question.

[QUOTE=jsmorphs2;1032478]HemerocallisQUOTE]

What's a hemerocallis?

Coupla things, I'd avoid pet stores if you're serious about your ball pythons. They can be great for pets, but go to a breeder if you're looking to reproduce them yourself.

Also, I'm all for being angry at the bozos who drop prices(but I wouldn't take away their ability to do so). The thing is, they don't care, it changes nothing, and wastes time.

If someone buys a $1,000 morph from a big breeder and in a few years produces 5 of the same morph why the heck would they sell the offspring for less!!?? Just cause that breeder is a joe-someone and has healthy animals doesn't mean his animals are less valuable..... I think people don't give themselves enough credit. You produce great animals, why should you compromise price if your just small time??

[QUOTE=stratus_020202;1032483]

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

HemerocallisQUOTE]

What's a hemerocallis?

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They are daylilys:)

[QUOTE=jsmorphs2;1032491]

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

They are daylilys:)

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Oh, I see. It's a good thing we started saying daylilies. Otherwise, I would have shortened it to Hermo's. Excuse me, I'd like to buy some "hermo's." HAhahahha.

[QUOTE=stratus_020202;1032492]

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

Oh, I see. It's a good thing we started saying daylilies. Otherwise, I would have shortened it to Hermo's. Excuse me, I'd like to buy some "hermo's." HAhahahha.

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Hahaha...:rofl:

The Hort. industry has some funny names!!

I think that the reasons for declining prices go beyond price speculation, supply, demand, etc...all of these factors go into the equation, but really is a niche market so you can't compare behavior in this market to behavior in other more traditional product markets.

The perceived value of morphs has to do with a lot of things - in the beginning, the few "big" breeders around that first started working with morphs did a great job marketing these mutations and created a lot of hype around them. This is a business for them and they made a lot of money by working to increase their perceived value.

When the morph has been bred to the point that Joe Schmoe in his basement is hatching them out, some of that hype and excitement disappears, as does the perceived value, regardless of how many are being produced or sold in the market. Joe doesn't feel the need to hype the animals in the same way as they were before, and someone else hatches out the "next big thing" that everyone shifts their focus to. Suddenly that morph isn't worth as much as it was.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

mechnut450 - Why not save up the money for the pied? You spend $500 on a pair of hets, then raise them up for 3 years before you can really even have a chance at producing a pied. If you were to start saving with the goal of raising $2000 in 3 years, chances are you would have what you needed to buy a pied in LESS than 3 years due to the price drops every year.

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you figure out how long it will take when you disablity income about 670 and you bills are anywere from 600- 690 a month I lucky I can keep supplies at time and i looking at having to get most my molars removed (by dentsit students) because I can't afford a real dentist.

My bills don't count supplies, fuel or food . I am currently supplying my reptiles need with doing odd jobs the best I can, and the only reason I happen accross the het pied was kingsnake and asked around on there. The one guy was dealing with the ideal of possible getting burned out in those cali fires and the other guy I just happen to get real lucky when i emailed hime. ( I make an indept post after dinner so the pain meds for the teeth don't hav me floating lol

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

If someone buys a $1,000 morph from a big breeder and in a few years produces 5 of the same morph why the heck would they sell the offspring for less!!??

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Because they 1) paid $1000 for the morph due to supply at the time of purchase, and 2) because they're driving up supply themselves (1-to-5 ratio at 3yrs, 1-to-10 at 4yrs, 1-to-15 at 5yrs and 1-to-45 at 6yrs when offspring become breeders).

Simply put, when there are 45 offspring in circulation for every one purchased on a six year roll, you simply can't continue to sell the offspring at 100% the price of the original stock.

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Originally Posted by ctrlfreq

Because they 1) paid $1000 for the morph due to supply at the time of purchase, and 2) because they're driving up supply themselves (1-to-5 ratio at 3yrs, 1-to-10 at 4yrs, 1-to-15 at 5yrs and 1-to-45 at 6yrs when offspring become breeders).

Simply put, when there are 45 offspring in circulation for every one purchased on a six year roll, you simply can't continue to sell the offspring at 100% the price of the original stock.

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Just to add on to what you are saying, this is correct if you assume that demand is a constant.

Given the state of the economy, do you think that the market for ball pythons has increased in size, or has it contracted? To me, evidence points towards the latter.

I don't believe that Kingsnake is solely responsible for price drops. Its natural to want to place blame somewhere, in an effort to control something that in reality, we have no control over.

Just enjoy your snakes and the rest will fall into place.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Given the state of the economy, do you think that the market for ball pythons has increased in size, or has it contracted? To me, evidence points towards the latter.

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I'm personally of the opinion that the market has never been as big as we hopefully assume it to be. While I'm sure the state of the economy is having some impact, I think the primary driver is the fact that the supply is already vastly outpacing the demand except in the arena of multiple-morph designer animals (which is what those who make their living on these animals concentrate on).

Really what we need isn't a limit on breeding, but a path of certification resembling the AKC. Let everyday Joe breed all he likes - but make him show his animals and prove their superb genetic content if he wants to deal in high priced quality specimens.

I believe the pricing in the BP market is a combination of most of the things mentioned in this thread. Of course prices come down as a particular morph becomes more common, and there is some other new morph that is the hottest thing. But prices are also probably dropped more than they "should" be by people who are trying to sell out quickly, and just the general perception in the market that prices always drop.

It HAS to stop. We are reaching the point where, with the increasing price of keeping and breeding the snakes, mostly due to the increased cost of rodent food, many of the morphs may end up costing more to produce than you can get from selling them. That is not a good thing.

Also, people are willing to pay $100, or at least close to it, for a normal at a pet store. It happens all the time. But most people buying from breeders would not be willing to pay the same price for a male pastel unless it was a really nice one. That makes no sense.

I hope to start breeding this coming season, and when I do, I hope I'll be able to get reasonable prices for those that I decide to sell. I plan on researching the market, both on KS and at shows, as well as by talking to some breeders with lots more experience than me. Then I plan on sticking pretty firm with the prices I decide on. I know the demand is out there, it is just a matter of finding the way to connect with the right buyer.

Right now, I'm much more worried about whether or not it will still be legal to breed & sell at all, than about what price I'll be able to get. :mad:

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

The Horticulture industry puts trademarks and royalties on genetics. If So&So grower produces a new cultivar of Hemerocallis and they trademark it, those genetics are owned and it is illegal to propagate and SELL that specific plant. To do so would require licensing and a royalty would be charged on each plant sold.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I sincerely hope this never happens to the herp world.

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You have to understand that you are talking something totally different here. Trademarks on plants are done on an exact genetic profile, and they are asexually reproduced so that the "offspring" are clones of the parent. Otherwise they would not still be the trademarked variety. It is perfectly acceptable to cross 2 trademarked varieties and come up with your own new variety, you just aren't allowed to asexually reproduce the trademarked variety.

I actually thought it was only done with plants that do not normally reproduce asexually, such as roses, so daylillies would not be trademarked, but I could easily be wrong on that.

In any event, it won't be happening with herps until we learn how to clone them.

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Originally Posted by jsmorphs2

If someone buys a $1,000 morph from a big breeder and in a few years produces 5 of the same morph why the heck would they sell the offspring for less!!??

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Something to consider:

Possibly because supply just quintupled for that one specific small time breeder, at the same time supply is increasing all the time due to other breeders, and we are in a market of falling demand for high priced snakes due to the economy and the so-called "ball python bubble".