I need help :(

my baby boa is going on week 2 of regurges.

Ive had a fecal done and there is no parasites or anything els that the vet can see that would explain this behavior. She is a captive bread, i thought the was WC but i was incorrect.

Her warm side is 92*f, cool is 82*f and the ambient temp is 80*f. Humidity is 50%

these are all temperatures taken with accu-temp Digital gauges and a Thermal Gun.

Ive inspected her for mites she seems ok, i must have done this at leats 10 times, only because she is soaking her self.

the background on this issue is this:

I picked her up from the pet store, where she was fed after she arrived from shipping. she took fine. and pooped fine. (Arrival to pickup = 2 days)

1st feeding went fine or so i though, she ate it. like a champ. went into her warm hide and stayed there. the following day i came home to observe her soaking in her water dish. i didn't bother her and a few hours later was surprised with a regurge. So i decided to take a fecal in for testing and left her be.

second feeding time comes around. (5 days later) and she takes this fuzzie no contest. she was cruzing and appeared very hungry and took it very quickly. Same thing after. she retreated to her warm hide for the rest of the evening. then when i came home from work she was AGAIN soaking in her water dish which was followed promptly this time with a regurge.

so here i stand. 2 regurges, she is still drinking, and im getting worried. some how the soaking is related but im not sure what the issue is. she has pooped fine so she is not impacted. no parasites or bacterial infections that the vet can tell. and im 99% sure being captive bread she does not have IBD although she is being quarantined to be sure. she has not exhibited any signs of it.

she is in a rack. its closed off on 3 sides, and is in my bed room so low traffic. so im at a loss if this is stress related.

thanks for looking, please help :(

Not sure if its the case in boas but with bps its recommended you wait 2 weeks after a regurge before offering food again. This gives the snake time to build up all its digestive fun stuff (enzymes, electrolytes, etc.) so that your next offering hopefully goes better.

that pretty much applies to all snakes. i was hoping that she would eat it fine this time. but i will have to wait longer now. because im sure after 2 regurges she has no enzymes left.

im just worried about her because she is a hatchling and will not last long if she cannot start keeping things down.

Is there any chance that the rodents you are feeding her are a little bit too big for her?

I had a male boa, he would eat like there was no tomorrow. I had him on weanling rats and thought maybe it was time to move up. Now the difference between the weanling rats, and the small/small rats I was feeding was not much more than a few grams. However it was too much for him to handle. He'd soak then regurge the small rats.

I was in the same situation, vet check/fecal all that stuff was perfect.

So on a hunch and at my wits end, I gave him 3 weeks to heal from regurging and went back to weanling rats. Never had a problem again. I just waited another 6 months to change to small rats , and he did fine.

Like I said it wasn't a huge difference in size, but just enough to make him regurge.

So I would maybe give her two weeks to heal. Then try a smaller prey item and see how she does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kristy

Is there any chance that the rodents you are feeding her are a little bit too big for her?

I had a male boa, he would eat like there was no tomorrow. I had him on weanling rats and thought maybe it was time to move up. Now the difference between the weanling rats, and the small/small rats I was feeding was not much more than a few grams. However it was too much for him to handle. He'd soak then regurge the small rats.

I was in the same situation, vet check/fecal all that stuff was perfect.

So on a hunch and at my wits end, I gave him 3 weeks to heal from regurging and went back to weanling rats. Never had a problem again. I just waited another 6 months to change to small rats , and he did fine.

Like I said it wasn't a huge difference in size, but just enough to make him regurge.

So I would maybe give her two weeks to heal. Then try a smaller prey item and see how she does.

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im feeding a single fuzzie. however i had thought this as well. maybe its a tad to large (even though it does not appear to be) so i am going to try pinky mice in 10 days to see if i can get her back on a feeding (i pray it works) i don't want to loose her!!

ive thought it may be stress too but. she uses her hides daily. and i ONLY see her soaking when she is preparing to regurge on me :(

Well soaking after a meal usually means that they are trying to relieve some of the pressure in their stomach. Considering she's soaked every time before regurging it may be the prey size after all. Good luck with the smaller prey item! Keep us updated.

i will keep you all updated.

now i feel bad because this is my fault :(

Hi,

I'm not a boa guy at all but I have a question.

Would replacing her waterbowl with one she cannot fit in be a good idea?


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

I'm not a boa guy at all but I have a question.

Would replacing her waterbowl with one she cannot fit in be a good idea?


dr del

---

well i didn't think she could cram her self in this one but she did the next size down is like hamster size.

i have a small bearded dragon sized water bowl in there.

but i do have smaller dishes i can offer and you best believe that i will be switching them out.

You need this stuff--
NutriBAC df

Wait 2 weeks after feeding last. Take the smallest possible size prey you think she'll eat and coat it with this stuff (it's a powder form). Wait two weeks and do it again. You should be all set after that.

Just remember when feeding her, it's not about the meal anymore. It's just about getting something inside her to nuetralize those stomach acids and bring her back to stability.

Thanks, ill be checking the pet store i go to. if they dont have it ill place the order tomarrow after noon.

I too was having this problem, however my guy never soaked, and is older...i fed him a rat that was probably way to over-sized, he regurgated it, i waited 2 weeks and fed him something smaller, he took it like there was tomorrow. However he ended up throwing it up again...Took him to the vet, everything was fine, not parasites, droppings were normal, everything was fine, he was just throwing it up. So for about the last month and a half i've been terrified about losing my guy. I actually just ended up feeding him 2 days ago, the first meal he's had in almost 2 months, and he took it, did not throw it up, and is doing great! So it may be something simiilar, however i never ended up knowing what was wrong with my guy, other than he just wouldn't keep his prey down.

I guess to say the least, i know the feeling and was in a similar boat and how horrible it feels, and i wish you nothing but the best and hope everything turns out o.k.!! :gj:

Remember though when a snake regurges it's not really like you or I puking up last night's meal. Their stomach acids are so incredibly strong, strong enough to break down bone, hair, teeth even. When that prey comes up, so does a bunch of that very strong acid and when that comes up, it burns. We've seen snakes here that not only had damage internally from a regurged acid burn but externally from exposure to the stuff on their substrate. It's a pretty major event for them.

I think the stuff Jim suggested is a great idea as well as letting the snake rest without handling or feeding attempts for a few weeks to recover from the regurge, then feeding very small feeds for awhile before you slowly work up to normal feeding routines again. I haven't had a lot of regurges to deal with here but the ones I've had took months, not weeks, to get back to normal and that was fine with me. I'd rather be feeding way smaller than normal meals for awhile then get into a cycle of feed, regurge, feed, regurge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

my baby boa is going on week 2 of regurges.

Ive had a fecal done and there is no parasites or anything els that the vet can see that would explain this behavior. She is a captive bread, i thought the was WC but i was incorrect.

Her warm side is 92*f, cool is 82*f and the ambient temp is 80*f. Humidity is 50%

these are all temperatures taken with accu-temp Digital gauges and a Thermal Gun.

Ive inspected her for mites she seems ok, i must have done this at leats 10 times, only because she is soaking her self.

the background on this issue is this:

I picked her up from the pet store, where she was fed after she arrived from shipping. she took fine. and pooped fine. (Arrival to pickup = 2 days)

1st feeding went fine or so i though, she ate it. like a champ. went into her warm hide and stayed there. the following day i came home to observe her soaking in her water dish. i didn't bother her and a few hours later was surprised with a regurge. So i decided to take a fecal in for testing and left her be.

second feeding time comes around. (5 days later) and she takes this fuzzie no contest. she was cruzing and appeared very hungry and took it very quickly. Same thing after. she retreated to her warm hide for the rest of the evening. then when i came home from work she was AGAIN soaking in her water dish which was followed promptly this time with a regurge.

so here i stand. 2 regurges, she is still drinking, and im getting worried. some how the soaking is related but im not sure what the issue is. she has pooped fine so she is not impacted. no parasites or bacterial infections that the vet can tell. and im 99% sure being captive bread she does not have IBD although she is being quarantined to be sure. she has not exhibited any signs of it.

she is in a rack. its closed off on 3 sides, and is in my bed room so low traffic. so im at a loss if this is stress related.

thanks for looking, please help :(

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Give her a lot more time before attempting to feed after a regurge. As has already been noted on this thread, two weeks is the minimum amount of time I would attempt another feeding.

Being captive bred would not make any difference in whether or not she may be at risk for IBD. The occurance rates in wild snakes is unknown.

Nutribac can also be added to her water - it's basically a probiotic for snakes. It will assist in getting her beneficial gut flora (or good bacteria) up to effective levels.

Whether this will cure her regurges or not - I don't know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Give her a lot more time before attempting to feed after a regurge. As has already been noted on this thread, two weeks is the minimum amount of time I would attempt another feeding.

Being captive bred would not make any difference in whether or not she may be at risk for IBD. The occurance rates in wild snakes is unknown.

Nutribac can also be added to her water - it's basically a probiotic for snakes. It will assist in getting her beneficial gut flora (or good bacteria) up to effective levels.

Whether this will cure her regurges or not - I don't know.

---

i understand she is still at risk for IBD thats why she is quarantined. But since she came from a breeder the chances of her having it are slim compared to if she had an unknown background.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mighty Monty

I too was having this problem, however my guy never soaked, and is older...i fed him a rat that was probably way to over-sized, he regurgated it, i waited 2 weeks and fed him something smaller, he took it like there was tomorrow. However he ended up throwing it up again...Took him to the vet, everything was fine, not parasites, droppings were normal, everything was fine, he was just throwing it up. So for about the last month and a half i've been terrified about losing my guy. I actually just ended up feeding him 2 days ago, the first meal he's had in almost 2 months, and he took it, did not throw it up, and is doing great! So it may be something simiilar, however i never ended up knowing what was wrong with my guy, other than he just wouldn't keep his prey down.

I guess to say the least, i know the feeling and was in a similar boat and how horrible it feels, and i wish you nothing but the best and hope everything turns out o.k.!! :gj:

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you and I are in the same situation here. im at a loss for the cause of the regurges besides the fact that she may not have enough digestive enzymes and bacteria.

the difference is she cannot afford to go more then 2 weeks maximum with out eating she is about as skinny as she can take getting before she look and i assume will get sickly. Im going to be putting that additive ion her water and wait two weeks and feed her a small pinky dusted in the additive as well. in hopes i can solve this issue before its too late.

i know regurges are no joke :( im not having a fun time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

i understand she is still at risk for IBD thats why she is quarantined. But since she came from a breeder the chances of her having it are slim compared to if she had an unknown background.

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If you really think IBD is an option, have her tested for it.

While a 90 day quarantine is a great idea, it isn't going to clear you of IBD.

Per your other thread, four days ago you thought she might be wild caught - correct? Did you get confirmation either way on this? Do you know who the breeder is?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If you really think IBD is an option, have her tested for it.

While a 90 day quarantine is a great idea, it isn't going to clear you of IBD.

Per your other thread , four days ago you thought she might be wild caught - correct? Did you get confirmation either way on this? Do you know who the breeder is?

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she is not wild caught, i got her at my friends cost thats why i thought she was because she was rather cheap.

she is a CB from a breeder in Windsor Ontario. I actually stopped in to talk to my friend at the store last night for ideas as well. he is also a boa breeder. he is waiting on a litter. and he also suggested waiting two weeks and trying a pinky. he didn't suggest a supplement but he did mention it is an option if i need it. He also said that a fuzzy shouldnt be too large as all because he feeds all his new bourn boas them and has never started a boa on a pinky mouse. He assured me that the chances of IBD were slim to none as he has been getting boas off this breeder for over 5 years now, and knows the guy well and says he exercises the best caution with new snakes. He also has a older 2.25 foot male boa in with a reversed pattern. he offered to take her back in exchange for the male who is on a good feeding schedule that he him self has had going for 2 weeks now. but i dont want to trade i want to keep my lil Dixie :( but id take the male too if i can first get Dixie on a good feeding schedule.

Yeah, my guy is over 2 years old, so he can go awhile, i think over-all it was just over 2 months before he ate again. You really can't do that with those babies!

Wish you nothing but luck in getting your guy to eat again!

Thanks for the support :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If you really think IBD is an option, have her tested for it.

?

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There is no reliable test for IBD for a living animal. The only somewhat definitive tests are for deceased animals to confirm/deny the presence of IBD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

There is no reliable test for IBD for a living animal. The only somewhat definitive tests are for deceased animals to confirm/deny the presence of IBD.

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100% correct. it requires a necropsy, and even then there is no definitive yes or no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffJ

100% correct. it requires a necropsy, and even then there is no definitive yes or no.

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You can have various biopsies done on a live snake - liver, esophageal tonsils, kidneys, gall bladder, etc.

I've had them done on animals in my collection.

They are not 100% reliable only because the biopsied organ needs to have identifiable inclusion cells in it to make a diagnosis.

Absence of inclusion cells does not necessarily mean the animal is disease free - it just means that the organ biopsied is free of inclusion cells. They are also not cheap.

To say that there are no reliable tests on living animals to screen or check for IBD is blatantly false.

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...y-disease.aspx

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/Haltung/IBDEng.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

100% wrong - you can have various biopsies done on a live snake - liver, esophageal tonsils, kidneys, gall bladder, etc.

I've had them done on animals in my collection.

They are not 100% reliable only because the biopsied organ needs to have identifiable inclusion cells in it to make a diagnosis.

Absence of inclusion cells does not necessarily mean the animal is disease free - it just means that the organ biopsied is free of inclusion cells. They are also not cheap.

To say that there are no reliable tests on living animals to screen or check for IBD is blatantly false.

http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...y-disease.aspx

http://www.boa-constrictors.com/com/Haltung/IBDEng.htm

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notice how i agreed that there was no RELIABLE test for IBD. Ad if we were gauging probability of a successful test for IBD it would be the necropsy always as every organ could be examined in full. an my statement was directed to wards a better answer. and there is no way to get a definitive one with out a necropsy and even then it has been said that they are guesses at best.

biopsies are not reliable. and neither is a necropsy.

she is 100% correct i see no fault in her statement. there is no reliable test live and dead for that matter for IBD. it also takes a vet that knows what they are doing. which some times is harder to find then one would think in the herp world.

we were not protesting the ability of a test. just the reliability. i get the impression you like to argue much ;)


re⋅li⋅a⋅ble
   /rɪˈlaɪəbəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lahy-uh-buhl] Show IPA
–adjective
that may be relied on; dependable in achievement, accuracy, honesty, etc.: reliable information.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reliable

my Motorcycle is reliable, it starts every time. a test that may or may not yield results is not, that would be called gambling. you contradicted your self in your statement
in order for that test to be reliable at all it would have to achieve results constantly to deem its reliability. a car that only starts 1 out of every 5 times would be considered unreliable. therefore there are no tests that can be done live that can be reliable to find IBD. its a crap shoot. and so is a necropsy.

anyways, i can say pretty confidently IBD is not the issue here.

ive been informed of the history of the Boa in question.

and this is not a thread for argument on testing methods. so lets agree to disagree.

anyways i got some of that supliment today. i will keep you all updated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jeffj

notice how i agreed that there was no reliable test for ibd. Ad if we were gauging probability of a successful test for ibd it would be the necropsy always as every organ could be examined in full. An my statement was directed to wards a better answer. And there is no way to get a definitive one with out a necropsy and even then it has been said that they are guesses at best.

Biopsies are not reliable. And neither is a necropsy.

She is 100% correct i see no fault in her statement. There is no reliable test live and dead for that matter for ibd. It also takes a vet that knows what they are doing. Which some times is harder to find then one would think in the herp world.

We were not protesting the ability of a test. Just the reliability. I get the impression you like to argue much ;)


re⋅li⋅a⋅ble
   /rɪˈlaɪəbəl/ show spelled pronunciation [ri-lahy-uh-buhl] show ipa
–adjective
that may be relied on; dependable in achievement, accuracy, honesty, etc.: Reliable information.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reliable

my motorcycle is reliable, it starts every time. A test that may or may not yield results is not, that would be called gambling. You contradicted your self in your statement
in order for that test to be reliable at all it would have to achieve results constantly to deem its reliability. A car that only starts 1 out of every 5 times would be considered unreliable. Therefore there are no tests that can be done live that can be reliable to find ibd. Its a crap shoot. And so is a necropsy.

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:8:

Update:

I have been giving her that supplement in her water. and she is very hungry.

Last night she some how escaped, which i cant see how as there is 2mm gap around the top for air and some small ir holes and its got a latch to keep it closed. but she got out! i found her inside my girlfriends shoe hiding from the kitten but also plotting to eat the hamster. as the shoes were on a shelf right beside the hamster.

so i have her in my Cleaning tub right now. will be moving her OT a more secure enclosure soon.

So its been a week. only one more to go before i can feed my hungry girl. and cross my fingers.

Good luck man! Let us know how it turns out.

I'd feed her 10-14 days after a regurge, then feed 1/2 size pray for 3 weeks. I've heard putting grapefruit seed extract in the drinking water helps with adding back some acid.

Cool bro, make sure you shake some of the nutriBAC on the meal for her too.

Good luck!

Thought id show you guys what i got her set up in now

http://i42.tinypic.com/24pfbdt.jpg

and this is her hanging out

http://i42.tinypic.com/21chtle.jpg


the images are not appearing for me. but they are there let me know if they are messed.

Jeff, is your boa a bci or bcc? Do you feed FT, live, PK?? From the last pic (what i can see of her) she looks like a standard colombian boa...The reason I ask is, over the years of keeping BCI or BCC's, Ive never had a BCI regurge on me before, but Ive had instances where 2 BCI's (suri's) regurged on me a few times, for they really need size appropriate meals. Your temps look fine in the pic, perhaps some belly heat might help? Also, if your feeding FT is the prey completely thawed out before feeding? (im not trying to imply that you are clueless) LOL...Im just throwing out some advice...I would advise that you dont handle her at all during this time either....leave her be...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OuijaBoid

Jeff, is your boa a bci or bcc? Do you feed FT, live, PK?? From the last pic (what i can see of her) she looks like a standard colombian boa...The reason I ask is, over the years of keeping BCI or BCC's, Ive never had a BCI regurge on me before, but Ive had instances where 2 BCI's (suri's) regurged on me a few times, for they really need size appropriate meals. Your temps look fine in the pic, perhaps some belly heat might help? Also, if your feeding FT is the prey completely thawed out before feeding? (im not trying to imply that you are clueless) LOL...Im just throwing out some advice...I would advise that you dont handle her at all during this time either....leave her be...

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She is a BCI from what i know, and her appearance. she also does have belly heat @ 94*F but she rarely hits the ground.

Im assuming this is all caused by a flora issue in her gut as the fuzzies were appropriately sized to the best of my knowledge. But im going to get the feeding train chugging again on something smaller like a pinky first. and cross my fingers. PS: i feed live. I feel its more natural for my snakes.

Sunday is the big day

im so happy right now :) i decided to feed my boa last night as she was loosing her mind trying to get out of the cage. good news is she ate it.... didnt soak afterwords and kept it down :D 12 days after the regurge she seems to be doing better! i got up this morning. and no regurge. but she did leave her hide and go back to her vine by the CHE :P


woohoo!!

:banana: :banana: :banana: :gj:

Got my fingers crossed man, good luck.

Thank you all for the help. you guys and or gals really saved my baby. she has already went much longer then before with out regurging.

regurge has got to be the WORST friggin smell in the world....Nothing like coming home from a hard day at work, and BAM it hits you! 8)

ia gree. u know it when it happens

Just an update:

she is doing great. its a complete turnaround from before.

again THANK YOU to all the kind encouragement and tips. you saved my day, week w/e you want to say but you did it.

Probably the last update unless this reoccurs.

she is doing well kept her meal down. she has been soaking the last 2 days on and off. i know she is miteless and and her temps are good not to hot or cols. som im asuming she feels like she may shed soon. (her belly is getting pink anyhow)

Sounds good! I'm glad she kept the meal down this time, I wish you continued success :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Sounds good! I'm glad she kept the meal down this time, I wish you continued success :)

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thanks!!