2 hets do what?

i see alot of ppl with normals that are heterozygous for whatever morph? so does this mean if i put two hets that are 100% will i get the desired het baby? i am still trying to get and idea of what kind of snakes turn into what when crossed... do any breeding programs use backcrosses or use incest mating to keep a certain gene? thanks for any help....j.p.:confused:

Well snakes do not "turn in to" anything :)

If I am reading you correct you are asking what the progeny of a het x het breeding would be (assuming the animals are both het for the same trait.)

So to make it easy I will just use albino.

het albino x het albino will give rise to:

albino (1:4 odds)
het albino (1:2 odds)
normal (1:4 odds)

The hets and the normals will look the same though, so any given normal looking baby from the litter grabbed at random will have a 1:3 chance of being a het.

And yes, line breeding is common

Here's some links that should help you understand ball python genetics.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...=626798#626798

http://www.ballpython.ca/genetics.html

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Well snakes do not "turn in to" anything :)

If I am reading you correct you are asking what the progeny of a het x het breeding would be (assuming the animals are both het for the same trait.)

So to make it easy I will just use albino.

het albino x het albino will give rise to:

albino (1:4 odds)
het albino (1:2 odds)
normal (1:4 odds)

The hets and the normals will look the same though, so any given normal looking baby from the litter grabbed at random will have a 1:3 chance of being a het.

And yes, line breeding is common

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Actually each normal looking baby would have a 2/3 chance of being a het.

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

Actually each normal looking baby would have a 2/3 chance of being a het.

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Yes you are right. I meant to type 2:3 damn my clumsy fingers.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Yes you are right. I meant to type 2:3 damn my clumsy fingers.

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:rofl: I figured.

you guys are awesome! that was exactly what i wanted to know. i am looking at purchasing some poss het albino from 8ball. i am still looking for the "best deal" but i want quality as well. thanks alot for all your help..:banana:

One of the biggest things when it comes to purchasing hets is to go with a reputable breeder. You are buying into that rep when you purchase genetics you can't visibly see, like in the case of recessive hets. Adam from 8Ball has one of the VERY best reputations out there so I would tell you to buy with absolute confidence. I have a number of snakes in our collection from Adam and they are all just fantastic animals. His genetics paperwork that accompanies each snake is highly professional and very complete. :)

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Originally Posted by ParmleyStyle

you guys are awesome! that was exactly what i wanted to know. i am looking at purchasing some poss het albino from 8ball. i am still looking for the "best deal" but i want quality as well. thanks alot for all your help..:banana:

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Be sure you understand the percentages and the term "possible het" or "probable het". You'll see 50% probable hets, 66% probable hets, and 100% probable hets. A 66% probable het has a 2/3 chance of being a het, and a 1/3 chance that it is not. It either is or it isn't. A 100% probable het is advertised to be a het with NO chance that it isn't.

You MUST be careful who you buy hets from. Since they look normal, its easy to sell a normal as a het.

All that said, you mentioned 8ball. You can be very confident that you are getting what you pay for from Adam at 8ball. (edit) You beat me to it Jo! ;) (end edit)

Steve

There is not such thing as a 100% probable :) When probability hits 1 it is a certainty, all chance removed.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

There is not such thing as a 100% probable :) When probability hits 1 it is a certainty, all chance removed.

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Good point. 100% are called "het for...", below that it's called "probable het for..." or "possible het for..."

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Originally Posted by asplundii

There is not such thing as a 100% probable :) When probability hits 1 it is a certainty, all chance removed.

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However, you will see hets advertised as 100% het for ????. They've simply left out the word probable.

There IS a such thing as 100% probable. The probability of that animal being heterozygous for the trait is 100%. I don't like the terminology 100% het for ??? because if it is a het, it is 100%. A 50% probable het for ??? does not hold 50% of a gene for that trait, it has a 50% chance of having the gene. So, when percentages are used, the word probable should be used as well.

You are correct that when probability hits 1 it is a certainty and all chance is removed. There's not much chance of a negative outcome when the probability is 100%, is there?

Because it is SO common to see 100% used in advertising hets, it has to be considered, and needs to be clarified.

Steve

I guess we just define "probability" differently. My way of thinking of it is that probability is a measure of chance.

Think of it this way, a flipped coin in the air has a 50% probability (chance) of landing heads up. However, once it has landed all probability (chance) is removed; it either is heads up or it is not heads up.

So it is with hets. They either are or are not. I think people use the 100% to indicate it is indeed an actual het while the 50% and 66% ones are still "coins up in the air yet to land" as it were.

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Because it is SO common to see 100% used in advertising hets, it has to be considered, and needs to be clarified

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I agree it is good to clear things up :)

And I would assume that a 66% poss het that gave birth to an albino baby can now be sold as het albino without further percent qualification.

I do see what you mean when you say, if you put 100% then it is proper to add poss. Otherwise, just drop 100% altogether... It's like saying, "Can you repeat it again for the second twice?"... Just being funny, guys...

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Originally Posted by asplundii

I guess we just define "probability" differently. My way of thinking of it is that probability is a measure of chance.

Think of it this way, a flipped coin in the air has a 50% probability (chance) of landing heads up. However, once it has landed all probability (chance) is removed; it either is heads up or it is not heads up.

So it is with hets. They either are or are not. I think people use the 100% to indicate it is indeed an actual het while the 50% and 66% ones are still "coins up in the air yet to land" as it were.



I agree it is good to clear things up :)

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You're absolutely right. Once the coin has landed "heads" it has no chance of being "tails" - 0% probability. But I see your point, and I agree. But, its a common practice in the ball python world to advertise hets as "100%". So whether we like it or not, we have to consider it. Its kinda like the whole co-dominance vs incomplete dominance thing. Co-dominance is most likely not an accurate description of what we consider to be co-dominant traits in ball pythons. But it is so widely used, that we really can't avoid it.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

So it is with hets. They either are or are not. I think people use the 100% to indicate it is indeed an actual het while the 50% and 66% ones are still "coins up in the air yet to land" as it were.

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Good analogy, except depending on who reads it, it might give the wrong impression. I think a slightly more accurate way of saying it is that phets are like coins that have landed, but no one has looked to see which side is up. The snake either is het or it isn't (the coin has landed), the issue is just that we have no way of knowing until we breed it to prove it out (look at the coin).

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Originally Posted by anatess

And I would assume that a 66% poss het that gave birth to an albino baby can now be sold as het albino without further percent qualification.

I do see what you mean when you say, if you put 100% then it is proper to add poss. Otherwise, just drop 100% altogether... It's like saying, "Can you repeat it again for the second twice?"... Just being funny, guys...

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Yup, once its proven, its no longer a 66% probable het, its...ummm... 100% (ducking now).

Another OT analogy I thought of is when someone asks you to enter your "pin number". If you expand the acronym, they're asking for your personal identification number number.

Steve

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Originally Posted by anatess

And I would assume that a 66% poss het that gave birth to an albino baby can now be sold as het albino without further percent qualification.

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I think that is where the word "proven" usually comes in.

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Originally Posted by hoo-t

Yup, once its proven, its no longer a 66% probable het, its...ummm... 100% (ducking now).

Another OT analogy I thought of is when someone asks you to enter your "pin number". If you expand the acronym, they're asking for your personal identification number number.

Steve

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Yes, and ATM machine. Apparently redundancy was popular around the time those things were invented! :D

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Originally Posted by kc261

I think that is where the word "proven" usually comes in.

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The word "proven" also comes in with the "100% hets" though. I know that there is no way I'd sell a het that I didn't produce as 100% unless I had proved it.

By the way, I love your coin analogy!

Steve

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Originally Posted by kc261

Yes, and ATM machine. Apparently redundancy was popular around the time those things were invented! :D

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Enter your pin number into the ATM machine. LOL!

...or the last four digits of your SSN number...

Steve

I just wanted to interject another two probabilities that may be seen. They are rarer, and not seen very commonly, but I have seen them before. I know Michael Joliff used to be one that used them often, usually when describing babies from Double recessive projects. You may sometimes see 44% or 33%. A 44% comes from breeding a 66% Poss. Het to a 66% Poss. Het. A 33% comes from breeding a 66% Poss Het to a 50% Poss Het. The numbers don't really describe the probability the snake has of being Het or not, but is a mathematical combination of the parent probabilities. However it is a quick way to describe what breeding was done to produce the snake in question. I hope that wasn't too confusing.

I just wanted to describe that in case anyone ever sees those numbers.

Regards,