Pine Shavings-The Real Deal.

Alright, after a couple different searches and several pages of search responses, I decided it would just be best to try and get all the information in one area, especially since the info is either not out there, or just takes too long to find.

Pine and cedar are generally frowned upon as rodent (or herp for that matter) substrates because of the phenols in the wood. I consider cedar to be a no-go no matter how it is treated, but I have heard of a lot of people that use various forms of pine effectively, and by effectively I mean safely.

So, the buzzword seems to be either "kiln dried" or "milled". Milling seems to have 3 grades, single, double and triple, with the higher millings meaning more refining which leads to a better but more expensive product. Is this correct, or is some info just misleading, and kiln dried is what to look for, and the milling buzzword just migrated over to pine from cypress incorrectly?

If someone experienced with all of this could clear up the issues with how the products are labeled, hopefully with a relative pricetag and whether or not they should be considered safe for rodents (and I am only talking rodents), I think the whole community would appreciate it. Also, good places to get acceptable forms of pine, if they exist, would be a good bonus.

The reason for all of this? Cost effectiveness vs odor control. I never really got any experience using pine shavings, since right after I bought the first bag I found out that it was probably not good for our rodents, so I switched them to aspen. I have since switched to pine pellets, which I have mixed feelings about. I hate the dust, the smell control better than aspen, but if pine is similar odor-wise to aspen at a quarter of the cost, then maybe it would be more cost efficient to use the pine. The result of this would just mean more frequent cleanings to maintain a similar odor control when compared to the pine pellets. Another option is to mix the pine pellets in with a suitable pine shaving for even more odor control without sacrificing too much potential savings.

Thanks,
Austin

I have used pine for my rodents for years.

Kiln dried refers to actually drying the oils out of the wood, making it less aromatic. Milling is just how much they chop it up.

If you have to use pine, use a good quality kiln dried pine. Premier Pets (sold at TSC) makes a kiln dried pine that does not have much odor, and it's very light and fluffy. Some bargain or generic brands are incredibly strong smelling and actually feel damp when the bag is opened new. Try to avoid those.

Pine, since it's a soft wood, does emit phenols, which have been shown to irritate the lungs of rats. But on the flip side, a very dusty aspen can irritate it just as much as well.

The studies into the effects of phenols on small animals is mostly due to concern over elevated enzyme levels in the liver, which can cause liver disease and failure. However, I'm not dumb to the fact that many labs use a lab quality kiln dried pine like what is available from harlan teklad.

My personal feelings are to stay away from pine unless it is a high quality kiln dried shaving, where if you were to take a handful and stick your nose in it, you can't smell very much.


BTW, pellets with shavings over the top helps tremendously in keeping dust down. I used to keep my girls on break in a large cage, and they kicked up a TON of dust that did land on everything; but with shavings over top, the dust was kept to a very considerable minimum, but the trade off is more odor.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Kiln dried refers to actually drying the oils out of the wood, making it less aromatic. Milling is just how much they chop it up.

If you have to use pine, use a good quality kiln dried pine. Premier Pets (sold at TSC) makes a kiln dried pine that does not have much odor, and it's very light and fluffy. Some bargain or generic brands are incredibly strong smelling and actually feel damp when the bag is opened new. Try to avoid those.

Pine, since it's a soft wood, does emit phenols, which have been shown to irritate the lungs of rats. But on the flip side, a very dusty aspen can irritate it just as much as well.

The studies into the effects of phenols on small animals is mostly due to concern over elevated enzyme levels in the liver, which can cause liver disease and failure. However, I'm not dumb to the fact that many labs use a lab quality kiln dried pine like what is available from harlan teklad.

My personal feelings are to stay away from pine unless it is a high quality kiln dried shaving, where if you were to take a handful and stick your nose in it, you can't smell very much.


BTW, pellets with shavings over the top helps tremendously in keeping dust down. I used to keep my girls on break in a large cage, and they kicked up a TON of dust that did land on everything; but with shavings over top, the dust was kept to a very considerable minimum, but the trade off is more odor.

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I think I am going to get a bag of nice pine and just give it a shot. Thanks for the consolidated info Connie.

we use pine on are rodents also with no problems

I use pine pellets (woody pet) for my rodents and the nursing moms with babies 2 weeks and under are put on pine shavings from Petsmart - it's very light and fluffy. If I don't put the newborns on shavings, I lose them. Was talking to someone who said that's because on pine pellets, they can't generate enough warmth and get too cold. Seems to make sense - they do fine after they are two weeks old on just pine pellets.

I have used pine meant for horse stalls for over 2 years with no problems.

I go through 30 compressed cubic feet of kiln dried double milled Suncoast brand pine a month. I have for the last 2 years I have not noticed any issues with my rats what so ever. I birth 150-250 rats a month on the stuff and never see any problems.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Kiln dried refers to actually drying the oils out of the wood, making it less aromatic. Milling is just how much they chop it up.

If you have to use pine, use a good quality kiln dried pine. Premier Pets (sold at TSC) makes a kiln dried pine that does not have much odor, and it's very light and fluffy. Some bargain or generic brands are incredibly strong smelling and actually feel damp when the bag is opened new. Try to avoid those.

Pine, since it's a soft wood, does emit phenols, which have been shown to irritate the lungs of rats. But on the flip side, a very dusty aspen can irritate it just as much as well.

The studies into the effects of phenols on small animals is mostly due to concern over elevated enzyme levels in the liver, which can cause liver disease and failure. However, I'm not dumb to the fact that many labs use a lab quality kiln dried pine like what is available from harlan teklad.

My personal feelings are to stay away from pine unless it is a high quality kiln dried shaving, where if you were to take a handful and stick your nose in it, you can't smell very much.


BTW, pellets with shavings over the top helps tremendously in keeping dust down. I used to keep my girls on break in a large cage, and they kicked up a TON of dust that did land on everything; but with shavings over top, the dust was kept to a very considerable minimum, but the trade off is more odor.

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Great post, as always! You started with exactly what I was going to say, but of course you have more personal experience to add to it than I do.

Ive used pine for a while with no problems.

the best pine i have ever used is made by Dejno's Inc. of kenosha, Wi
its kiln dried and has minimal dust.
i tried the tsc stuff and it was probally 2nd best.
the pestsmart stuff (kaytee brand) isnt really good.
aspen dust is very very bad for lungs period.

I use Pine as well. No problems.

I also feel compelled to comment on all of these "no problem" posts.

The absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I also feel compelled to comment on all of these "no problem" posts.

The absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.

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Okay. Anyone here ever have rats on pine shavings and had a lung/liver/health problem?


<-- in the "rodents on pine shavings, haven't had a problem" camp.

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If I don't put the newborns on shavings, I lose them. Was talking to someone who said that's because on pine pellets, they can't generate enough warmth and get too cold. Seems to make sense - they do fine after they are two weeks old on just pine pellets.

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Agreed. I was having the same problems when I started using pine pellets.

How about paper towels? It seems like people make this so much of a bigger deal than it has to be.

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Originally Posted by bobberly1

How about paper towels? It seems like people make this so much of a bigger deal than it has to be.

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This is for rodents, not herps...not really sure how you could use paper towel as a substrate for feeders.

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Originally Posted by cassandra

Okay. Anyone here ever have rats on pine shavings and had a lung/liver/health problem?


<-- in the "rodents on pine shavings, haven't had a problem" camp.

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And how many people take their dead animals out for necropsy to determine cause of death and the health of the animal at the time it passed? Oh, and how many people can claim their animals don't have myco? Very very very few can claim that outside of labs.

Myco infects all rats besides select few lab rats, and does give them lung problems. Myco is in many ways a degenerative infection, as the rats age, the myco will scar up the lung tissue more and more, leaving the rat more susceptible to secondary infections like pneumonia and RI's, which is a big killer in rats. Most rats don't show they are sick until it is too late when their sides are caving in as their stomachs fill with air because their lungs are full of fluid and mucous. They can't even cough properly at this point.

So yes, that's my point. It's just not a viable cost for feeder breeders to take their sick or dead rats in to a vet to determine illness or c.o.d., so it really is the absence of evidence through a lack of actually going out and getting that evidence. Maybe I'm a bit jaded on this, but I'm okay with that.

Well, if there's absence of evidence of a problem with pine, aspen or any other bedding, who's to say ALL bedding won't cause lung problems or inflame myco?

How do you know that YOUR bedding isn't a problem? ;)

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Oh, and I do take my rats to the vet, as evidenced by past threads.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Well, if there's absence of evidence of a problem with pine, aspen or any other bedding, who's to say ALL bedding won't cause lung problems or inflame myco?

How do you know that YOUR bedding isn't a problem? ;)

Just playing devil's advocate here.

Oh, and I do take my rats to the vet, as evidenced by past threads.

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I didn't say my rats are free from illness or that my bedding was perfect. So....? (kinda see where I'm coming from now???)

I've used pine shavings for more years than most members here have been alive. I've used aspen too, had no problems, but it took too much compared to pine shavings, volume wise, to make it cost efficient.

I keep both mice and rats. I can't remember the last time I heard a sneeze or a cough from any of my rodents.

I've been keeping my snakes on pine longer than I've been breeder rodents. I don't use wet pine. I did learn that lesson the hard way many years ago before I even knew what a turpine was. Now I stick to well dried shavings.

The only breeder rats I've lost in the last as long as I can recall are pregnant females that died in childbirth. They are almost always either first time mothers or giving birth during the heat of summer. I have not had a male die in longer than I can remember and there have been MAYBE half a dozen females out of probably a hundred or so that have rotated through the breeding tubs.

I keep my rats in the snake room so they have heat during the winter, in the 80-84F range and A/C in the summer to keep them about the same EXCEPT on those days when it's 115F here and the A/C isn't quite up to the job. It may hit the mid 90s for a while on those days and I have noticed that those are the days that I have had mothers die giving birth.

I have no problems with babies. I don't always keep count but I can recall, mostly, how many are in each tub from week to week.

Those of you who have seen my snakes know they look pretty good. I RARELY feed anything I haven't produced myself, ratwise.

ive got breeders that are around 2 years old and all the ones ive grown up. i never had half the issues i have seen. the point to this is that if your going to petco those rats are picked over atleast a handfull of times before, mixed with rats from several sources and shipped to your local store.

mine on the other hand came from an actual ratery thats been around for a very long time and properly cared for. also he selectively picks what he keeps. does not bring any outsiders in and has a vet check his stuff all the time.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

get rid of the pine and use some aspen or pellets.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

They have been shown to increase liver enzymes and cause liver and kidney disease in small animals.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

No, I dont even think pine is ok. Studies have shown that small animals that live on pine have elevated liver enzymes and often die from liver disease.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Bedding, aspen is best. No cedar, or pine, it is poisonous to small animals

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Pine is not the best choice for rat bedding. I know people swear by it, but pine is very comparable to cedar in many respects.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I'm completely against the use of pine shavings.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Yes, but I don't recommend pine shavings for use with rodents. It contains many the same oils and phenols like cedar (just not as much), and can lead to respiratory distress.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Pine is not good to keep rats on from what I've read. I choose not to use it, but many do. This is what I've read so far about using pine shavings.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Pine has been studied because of the effects phenols (phenols are caustic, used in cleaning products like pinesol and lysol) have on small animals, it has been shown in studies that the phenols will increase liver enzymes that can cause liver failure. Not to mention the phenols and aroma of pine irritates the respiratory system of small animals which is bad for rats who already have very sensitive respiratory systems. This irritation can leave the door open for illnesses like myco flare ups, which in turn wear on their immune system, making it harder for them to fight off more infections.

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Ok Connie, is it really that necessary to become involved in absolutely every single pine thread that ever comes up? Ya, we get it, you don't like it, but I'm really sick of seing it on every bedding related thread. Why don't you just make your signature "THE PINE POLICE"?

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Originally Posted by Peter Williams

Ok Connie, is it really that necessary to become involved in absolutely every single pine thread that ever comes up? Ya, we get it, you don't like it, but I'm really sick of seing it on every bedding related thread. Why don't you just make your signature "THE PINE POLICE"?

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Or you could just get used to me putting in my 2 cents to every pine thread.... ;)

And anyways, I like to think that over time I have relaxed my reply's and views into the use of pine as I have personally done my own research. :)

I have researched what to use and what not to use. and since pine is highly unrecommended and cedar as well. I have chosen to use pellets or aspen. I think its all on your preference as well. If your willing to take the risk its your choice. with all the stuff I read pointing to bad I opted not to.

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Originally Posted by Peter Williams

Ok Connie, is it really that necessary to become involved in absolutely every single pine thread that ever comes up? Ya, we get it, you don't like it, but I'm really sick of seing it on every bedding related thread. Why don't you just make your signature "THE PINE POLICE"?

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Ask and you shall receive....I asked a question, she put her 2 cents in about it...who are you to call her out for giving her opinion. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I trust Connie with anything rat related, but that is not to say that I trust her exclusively, or that I won't get my own experience. She cares about what other people keep their animals on, not just her own collection. Your post is akin to all the husbandry questions we see over and over for our bp section, and everyone always responds the same way, so why dont we all just stop responding to those and put "BP Enclosure Police" in all of our signatures.

Anyone use the pine thats in the black bags at TSC?

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Originally Posted by Clear

Anyone use the pine thats in the black bags at TSC?

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I havent used it, but one was torn open at TSC and I scooped a handful (if were talking about the same kind) and the shavings were big and chunky, and also not kiln dried. Pretty wet stuff at my store.

I bought 2 bags of it, it was really wet and dusty, I gave it away.