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feeding BP in substrate

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  • 01-25-2009, 11:56 AM
    physalia
    feeding BP in substrate
    This may be a silly question...but for those who feed their BPs live prey in a tank, do you ever worry about your snake eating substrate? My BP is on paper towel right now, but I plan on putting a substrate (probably aspen) in his tank. I know that swallowing substrate can cause problems, so what do you do? Feed in another tank? Thanks in advance for the help. Everyone's been so helpful already!! :)
  • 01-25-2009, 12:28 PM
    rando
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    im not an expert or anything, but i wouldnt think that it matters. i feed my bp on aspen every week and it never caused any problems. think about it, snakes in the wild cant go into a sterilite tub to eat. they eat right on the ground and probably do get dirt and stuff in their mouth all the time. i dont think that it matters but im sure some would disagree.
  • 01-25-2009, 12:47 PM
    alohareptiles
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    I've never had a problem since I stopped having separate feeding areas...I know for me that was an old recommendation for keeping the reptiles from thinking your hand is food when it comes into the cage...20 years ago when I got into boas my friends and I would never feed our boas in their cages and we all stopped doing that around 17 years ago...Just MHO...
  • 01-25-2009, 01:08 PM
    thefnshow66
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by physalia View Post
    This may be a silly question...but for those who feed their BPs live prey in a tank, do you ever worry about your snake eating substrate? My BP is on paper towel right now, but I plan on putting a substrate (probably aspen) in his tank. I know that swallowing substrate can cause problems, so what do you do? Feed in another tank? Thanks in advance for the help. Everyone's been so helpful already!! :)

    Some of my snakes have had aspen stuck on the sides of their mouths but they never try to eat it. They simply find something to rub it off, and go about their business. I wouldn't worry to much about it. Your snake will be alright. :gj:
  • 01-25-2009, 01:18 PM
    TheMolenater2
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    I tried feeding my BP in another container before and it stresses her out. Besides, when I feed her in aspen and she does get some in her mouth, she rubs it off.
  • 01-25-2009, 03:48 PM
    Oxylepy
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    I KNOW my male has consumed aspen bedding and seems to have shown no ill effects from it.

    No that kind of substrate shouldn't be a big problem since it's so finely shredded. Where as the liquid absorbing substrates (the stuff they usually sell as small animal bedding that can absorb x times it's own volume in liquid and removes smells) can actually kill your snake if they consume it since it will expand inside of the snake.
  • 01-25-2009, 03:53 PM
    blackcrystal22
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    In small amounts, consumed substrate is harmless. Unless referring to sand..
  • 01-25-2009, 03:54 PM
    Typical_08
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pitsandpythons View Post
    I know for me that was an old recommendation for keeping the reptiles from thinking your hand is food when it comes into the cage

    I know that I am still new to the whole world of snakes. But just with the little bit I know I have to kind of call those that say this out. Feed your snake once a week, and handle it three times a week (or more, whatever). Through repetition, if the snake sees your hand more by being held, than being fed it is likely to assume that it is going to be handled when it sees your hand.

    Or you could never let it see your hand when you go to feed it.
  • 01-25-2009, 04:15 PM
    MarkS
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    I worry about it all the time. I have had snakes die on me before by ingesting substrate. But those were mostly small hatchlings kept on sand and one where the snake died being impacted by vermiculite (I used to keep humid hide boxes filled with damp vermiculite. The snake had pulled the prey into the hide box to swallow the food and vermiculite got stuck to it). I've also been present at a necropsy for a burm that had died after losing all muscle tone. The burm had been kept on pine chips it's whole life and was fed in the cage where the owner said it always ingested large amounts of chips on feeding day. (if you've ever seen burms eat, you'll see where they don't care what gets in their mouths as long as the food is in there somewhere too) The wood chips had splintered apart in the gut and the splinters had pierced the intestinal walls where they lodged in the surrounding muscle and eventually built up to such a concentration that they turned the muscle to jelly. Of course this was ingesting a LOT of chips over a long period of time. Most of the time I just keep my snakes on newspaper which doesn't cause any of those kinds of problems, however I'm finding I really need to use aspen in the winter if I expect to keep the humidity up to acceptable levels. I feed mostly live, which helps because substrate doesn't stick to live prey. If I'm feeding frozen thawed I like to present the food on disposable paper plates which seems to help some even though the snakes often grab the prey and drag it around the cage. There really isn't a good fool proof answer, you just need to keep your eyes open and observe feeding to determine what will work best for you.
  • 01-25-2009, 04:36 PM
    anatess
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    If you look at all the snakebytes feeding videos you see them feeding right there on the aspen substrate. If a big breeder and reptile experts like BHB is doing it, I don't see the harm in doing it at home as well. I feed live in a feeding tank because I use the time to clean the enclosure and also since our snake is in a display vivarium, there are a lot of niches that a rat could hide in.
  • 01-25-2009, 05:06 PM
    TMoore
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Like most people said, consuming small amounts of substrate such as aspen will not cause a problem.

    Snakes can digest whole prey items (bones, fur, teeth, etc..)with ease. A bit of substrate stuck to the prey should easily be digested as well.
  • 01-25-2009, 05:38 PM
    Otto1208
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    just do not use pine or cedar..Not for feeding concerns, but the wood has a toxin in it for snakes, and snakes breathing in this toxin will lead to RI.. MORE likely pine then cedar, but better to be safe than sorry!! I do not see any problem with you feeding on aspen...If you get bit you get bit right lol.. YOU will be alright on feeding in your tank(helps reduce stress in my boy)...
  • 01-25-2009, 06:32 PM
    physalia
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Thank you everyone. I plan on using aspen in his new home. :)
  • 01-25-2009, 07:15 PM
    Oxylepy
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Personally I use paper towels for small snakes and aspen for my adult. I like the aspen better because you can remove handfuls, but I don't like the concept of having small snakes in larger pieces of substrate, I'd rather have them incapable of ingesting any substrate.

    And again, don't use highly absorbent substrate and I would avoid hard substrates (crushed glass, walnut, sand, etc).
  • 01-25-2009, 07:28 PM
    Bruce Whitehead
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Typical_08 View Post
    I know that I am still new to the whole world of snakes. But just with the little bit I know I have to kind of call those that say this out. Feed your snake once a week, and handle it three times a week (or more, whatever). Through repetition, if the snake sees your hand more by being held, than being fed it is likely to assume that it is going to be handled when it sees your hand.

    Or you could never let it see your hand when you go to feed it.

    Just to clarify this. Your snake responds to 3 things, heat, scent and movement... which is why we tend to recommend people not make SFEs (Stupid Feeding Errors).

    A hand that smells like rodents, moves like a rodent, and is emitting heat will get tagged as well as a rodent.

    Hence using tongs, pre-scenting, and not handling when you smell like a rodent.

    When my snakes are in feed mode I do not put my hands in the enclosure ever.

    To the OP, I think the paper plate idea is a great one. One other thing you can do is ensure the prey is dry (blowdrying it) and removing your water dish.

    I remove my water dishes when I begin my pre-scenting and put them back in once the snake heads into their hides following. This way it will not drag the prey through the dish, and then through the substrate.

    Bruce
  • 01-25-2009, 09:34 PM
    Typical_08
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead View Post
    Just to clarify this. Your snake responds to 3 things, heat, scent and movement... which is why we tend to recommend people not make SFEs (Stupid Feeding Errors).

    A hand that smells like rodents, moves like a rodent, and is emitting heat will get tagged as well as a rodent.

    Hence using tongs, pre-scenting, and not handling when you smell like a rodent.

    When my snakes are in feed mode I do not put my hands in the enclosure ever.

    Interesting take on that. Never really thought of it that way. But one would think that they would become accustomed to repetition like most other animals.
  • 01-25-2009, 10:27 PM
    Bruce Whitehead
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Typical_08 View Post
    Interesting take on that. Never really thought of it that way. But one would think that they would become accustomed to repetition like most other animals.

    They definitely do. But never underestimate pre-scenting. You get them into feed mode and you have a lot of years of evolution acting behind that very small reptilian brain (which is very primal to begin with).

    I have some snakes I know I can reach in when they are in feed mode and others I would not even consider it.

    But those 3 points are why when people think that everytime a hand goes into an enclosure a snake will mistake them for food if they feed in the enclosure, that is why it is a myth.
  • 01-25-2009, 10:28 PM
    MarkS
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TMoore View Post
    Like most people said, consuming small amounts of substrate such as aspen will not cause a problem.

    Snakes can digest whole prey items (bones, fur, teeth, etc..)with ease. A bit of substrate stuck to the prey should easily be digested as well.

    One correction to this, most substrates are cellulose based (wood, paper, etc) and so are not digestible. They may pass through just fine, but they are NOT digested.
  • 01-25-2009, 10:40 PM
    Typical_08
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead View Post
    They definitely do. But never underestimate pre-scenting. You get them into feed mode and you have a lot of years of evolution acting behind that very small reptilian brain (which is very primal to begin with).

    I have some snakes I know I can reach in when they are in feed mode and others I would not even consider it.

    But those 3 points are why when people think that everytime a hand goes into an enclosure a snake will mistake them for food if they feed in the enclosure, that is why it is a myth.

    Oh I hear ya. And totally agree. I was not so much saying that repetition would pull them out of a feeding response. But was more saying that repetition may be more likely to put them into a feed response.

    If you only put your hand in three times a year (other than feeding), then they may become accustomed to the hand meaning getting fed. But if you handle them more then the are less likely to think that the hand means food.

    Smell what I am stepping in?
  • 01-26-2009, 12:13 AM
    TMoore
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MarkS View Post
    One correction to this, most substrates are cellulose based (wood, paper, etc) and so are not digestible. They may pass through just fine, but they are NOT digested.

    I guess I was wrong. Sorry to the OP and thanks for the correction.
  • 01-26-2009, 12:31 AM
    Tosha_Mc
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Ingesting a bit of aspen is not usually a big deal for a healthy ball - your biggest concern would be the occasional mouth splinters.

    Good luck!
  • 01-26-2009, 09:33 AM
    Lucas339
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    what about cypress? will this just pass through?
  • 01-26-2009, 11:56 AM
    physalia
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Thank you all for posting, I appreciate your help. Alas, my ball python passed away this weekend. It's very upsetting, I'm not sure what happened.

    My BP had mites, not too many, a few. While awaiting the medicine in the mail, I cleaned his tank and decor, gave him a bath, and just put the hides back in with water on paper towels. All the temp/humidity parameters were ok.

    Few days later, I fed him a live mouse. The following day, he came out of his hide and was acting funny...positioning weird. Then, he writhed around a bit, and died.

    I can't understand it, not sure what went wrong. I purchased him a week ago. I got him from a local pet store, so maybe that was the mistake.

    I am planning on purchasing another BP at some point...this time from a reputable breeder. Thanks again everyone.
  • 01-26-2009, 03:53 PM
    JNieporte
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Very sorry to hear about the passing of your snake :tears: I know it can be hard, especially with such a new one.

    For what it's worth, I fed mine in her cage today, live and right on the aspen bedding. No mess, full face strike, no biting, no bedding in her mouth. I'm not going to keep this method, but it's nice to see that it worked for her this one time.

    Again, I'm sorry to hear about the passing of your friend. Did you have a name for him?
  • 01-26-2009, 06:48 PM
    physalia
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by JNieporte View Post
    Very sorry to hear about the passing of your snake :tears: I know it can be hard, especially with such a new one.

    For what it's worth, I fed mine in her cage today, live and right on the aspen bedding. No mess, full face strike, no biting, no bedding in her mouth. I'm not going to keep this method, but it's nice to see that it worked for her this one time.

    Again, I'm sorry to hear about the passing of your friend. Did you have a name for him?

    Thank you so much JNieporte. He did have a name...Ziggy. My 4-year old daughter named him. We were all so excited to have him here, it's been tough since he went so suddenly.
  • 01-26-2009, 06:55 PM
    Texas Dan
    Re: feeding BP in substrate
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by physalia View Post
    This may be a silly question...but for those who feed their BPs live prey in a tank, do you ever worry about your snake eating substrate? My BP is on paper towel right now, but I plan on putting a substrate (probably aspen) in his tank. I know that swallowing substrate can cause problems, so what do you do? Feed in another tank? Thanks in advance for the help. Everyone's been so helpful already!! :)

    It's not going to be an issue. I'm sure others have already said it. Aspen is soft, rat bones are hard.
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