Piebald Thoughts?

Here's a question for the crowd. As the newer morphs become more and more available in the marketplace - the prices seem to come down as more become available. Any ideas as to why the Pied market prices seem to have stabilized in the $1200 - $2000 range?
Just curious as to your thoughts about this?

They are one of the most if not "THE" most sought after base morph for the hobbiest breeder and keeper alike. Their demand and popularity coupled with the 1:4 odds of a recessive keeps them there. :D

People ask 1200-2000 because they can get that all day every day for every pied they hatch.

They stabilized for alot of reasons actually. For the most part, recessive morphs are usually more expensive and stay that way for a long while. Plus, pieds are problably one of the most sought after morphs out there, so that keeps their price up too. And as you said, with all the newer morphs coming up, like pied combos, that too will further aid in stabilizing their prices.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

They are one of the most if not "THE" most sought after base morph for the hobbiest breeder and keeper alike. Their demand and popularity coupled with the 1:4 odds of a recessive keeps them there. :D

People ask 1200-2000 because they can get that all day every day for every pied they hatch.

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lol, beat me to it. :D

Think about other recessive morphs (albino, ghost/hypo, axanthic) thay all started out in the high end range, and now the prices have come way down??????

They are also one of the most reproduced recessives out. Look at all the albino crosses, Hypo crosses, and Axanthic crosses. We've only just started to see the combo potential of the pied.

Again theres few base morphs that have the eye popping visual apeal to snake keepers and non-snake people alike as the Pied Ball Python. Even people that don't like snakes will stop at a table to see a pied.

also remember that no two pieds are alike, that is also a contributing factor to their stable market. The fact that their price linked to their quality and higher or lower white makes their prices consitstant and probably will be like that for a long time. Sure you are going to have different quality albinos but if you think about it, its alot easier to get your hands on an albino and their contrast isnt going to differ the way that pieds do.

Well, somebody needs to have a freaking sale so us normal people can afford one.

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

Well, somebody needs to have a freaking sale so us normal people can afford one.

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AMEN brother!

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

Well, somebody needs to have a freaking sale so us normal people can afford one.

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:rofl:
Depends on what you consider affordable. See me I remember when Pieds were 10K for a male and 12+K for a female.

So to me 2000 is a kick in the nuts.

Amen!!!

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

Well, somebody needs to have a freaking sale so us normal people can afford one.

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The issue of the amount of white I think is a personal one. I prefer pied with more of a saddled pattern and not alot of white - other's may prefer more white, others may prefer half white, half pattern......
Similar to the other morphs - I don necessarily think it's about the morph but more of an "eye of the beholder" choice. Some folks cream their jeans over Cinny's -I don't get it - they look like light normals. Mojaves - people have orgasms over - I don't get that either?????
We get all caught up in these morphs and their expense - when really every individual has their own flavor.

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Originally Posted by DrLew

We get all caught up in these morphs and their expense - when really every individual has their own flavor.

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Bingo I got female spiders listed for one price. However my hold back female you'd have to pay 3X's that for to even think about getting me to let her go.

Thats how hot she is. Same thing with my Enchi I paid more for my Enchi than most did in 08 but then again I haven't seen an Enchi yet that holds a candle to my male.

PAY WHAT THE "ANIMAL" IS WORTH!

I think the prices on pied these days are fair. Granted it would be nice if they were cheaper , but still I think that what they are selling for now is what they are truely worth.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

PAY WHAT THE "ANIMAL" IS WORTH!

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Absolutely man! I could have gotten 3 pastel females for the price I paid for mine last year but y'know what I knew when I saw her that she was going to be a fantastic looking adult so I swiped her up and didn't think twice about it! Quality parents produce quality offspring. That's all there is to it. I'm not breeding with any eye towards selling (though I probably will eventually) I'm doing this because I want to have the best looking babies possible in MY collection!

Pieds are so variable. Me personally I LOVE low white pieds with their crazy crazy patterning. But even breeding wise, a low-white pied can still throw high white babies!

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

Quality parents produce quality offspring. That's all there is to it.

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:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:

Quote of the month right there!!!

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

I'm doing this because I want to have the best looking babies possible in MY collection!

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And that''s what I'm saying they may be the best looking one's in YOUR eyes, and not necessarily mine.

I called a guy about a pied - he gave me a price - which was a bit steep in my opinion - and I told him that - his reply was
"that's what it's worth to me" - meaning him of course.

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Originally Posted by DrLew

And that''s what I'm saying they may be the best looking one's in YOUR eyes, and not necessarily mine.

I called a guy about a pied - he gave me a price - which was a bit steep in my opinion - and I told him that - his reply was
"that's what it's worth to me" - meaning him of course.

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Right you pay what the breeder things its worth. If you don't think it worth that then you don't have to pay it.

The best deal is when you and the breeder both think the animal is worth the same thing..

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Originally Posted by DrLew

And that''s what I'm saying they may be the best looking one's in YOUR eyes, and not necessarily mine.

I called a guy about a pied - he gave me a price - which was a bit steep in my opinion - and I told him that - his reply was
"that's what it's worth to me" - meaning him of course.

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That's definitely true. Just remember if people we're not willing to pay 1200-2000 dollars for a piebald there would not be any up for sale for that price! I think in some cases beauty is more in the eye of the beholder. However, I think we can pretty much all agree for instance that a nice pastel should have great looking blushing and hold their color well, that a good looking mojave should have eye-popping color not be all washed out etc..... Again if you know what the "standard" is and breed for both quality and what you like 9 times out of 10 there's multiple people out there in the big old world that feel exactly the same way and will be willing to put more money out for an animal that looks exactly how they would like it!

It doesn't mean that everyone has to like absolutely everything that I produce but I sure as heck better like them!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

:bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:

Quote of the month right there!!!

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Lol thanks Ed! That means a lot coming from you :bow: :salute::bow: :gj:

Good post...interesting POV's :)

Is there also a supply side to this equation? Even just as simple as piebald not being around as long to build up as big a supply as albino which could explain why albino is much less expensive than piebald.

Or have piebalds been harder to produce for some reason? I remember asking about why caramels seemed much rarer than other morphs of the same age back before finding out about the kinking. Now I wonder if some breeders where avoiding caramels or working with hets only trying to work around the kinking and this caused a lower supply.

pieds are not harder to reproduce than albinos
most breeders are using pieds for dh projects to make new morphs
piebalds were like $15,000 a couple years ago
so i would have no problem spending $1,500 for one i liked
and will hopefuly get one in the summer
i think anyone that has ever seen a piebald in person wants atleast one

What about Clowns? Clowns have been around only 2 years longer than Pied Balds and they're holding their value. Recessives will always be more expensive, and as long as people are willing to pay $1300-2000 for a pied bald, people are going to sell them for that much. It's only been in the past couple years that the BP market took a serious nose dive.

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Originally Posted by nova2door

pieds are not harder to reproduce than albinos
most breeders are using pieds for dh projects to make new morphs
piebalds were like $15,000 a couple years ago
so i would have no problem spending $1,500 for one i liked
and will hopefuly get one in the summer
i think anyone that has ever seen a piebald in person wants atleast one

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Not necessarily true, Pieds and het pieds generally aren't the best eaters. Slow eating girls = slow production.

just cuz I haven't done this in a while...



piedspiedspiedspiedspiedspiedspiedspiedspiedspiedspieds! :banana:

I remember being at Pete Kahl's place in 2001 and people were calling and buying pied males for $20,000-$22,500. I bought a female pied from him then for $14,500 with about 35% white.

I think that its also such a dramatic mutation. So many reptiles have albinos, so many have hypos, so an albino ball or hypo ball isn't that big of a deal when you think about how those mutations are found throughout the reptile kingdom. But a pied ball python is so stark with the normal color and snow white that it stands out.

I can't think of much else that is that dramatic. So even to people who aren't into bps or even reptiles, are still impressed by pieds. I think they'll continue to hold their prices for that very reason.

Just another angle... from a young breeders point of view... It costs about $3500 DOLLARS and two years time to produce a clutch full of PIEDS... To someone like me, that is a pretty hard sale to make to the wifey pooh.... :)

This stops a lot of small time breeders like myself from throwing their hats in the ring..... That keeps the supply down.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Just another angle... from a young breeders point of view... It costs about $3500 DOLLARS and two years time to produce a clutch full of PIEDS... To someone like me, that is a pretty hard sale to make to the wifey pooh.... :)

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Right but if you are going to sell let's say 1/2 that clutch for say $1500 a peice and let's just say you get a clutch of 6 then that's $4500, so you've made back your initial investment and you now have 5 pieds.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Right but if you are going to sell let's say 1/2 that clutch for say $1500 a peice and let's just say you get a clutch of 6 then that's $4500, so you've made back your initial investment and you now have 5 pieds.

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Oh, I understand the basic math... But when you consider the intial cost, the waiting period, and the diving prices of morphs lately, it really isn't that simple of a decision! This time last year it was a no-brainer to buy a female albino for $1100!

I think one of the things that also help piebalds and clowns compared to ghosts and axanthics are the single line. You get a pied or clown and that is what you get. With axanthics you get VPI, Joliff, SK, nerd... With ghost/hypos you can get green, yellow, orange, Nerd line orange... Since each of the lines get generally thrown into one group it brings the group price down. The one exception I have sort of kinda seen is the VPI Axanthic it seems to be maintaining a selling value better than the other lines.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Oh, I understand the basic math... But when you consider the intial cost, the waiting period, and the diving prices of morphs lately, it really isn't that simple of a decision! This time last year it was a no-brainer to buy a female albino for $1100!

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That's the risk you take though. I know someone who bought a clown when they were $25K, and he hasn't remotely broken even with it. But that said a lot of other morphs he bought he has.

would just like to say i have been watching peid's since they where $20,000,
and now there are at $1,500-2,000, now im not a rich person nore do i make alot of money, but that is a very fare price for them in my mind i have a fund set up just to buy a pair this summer, i have been saveing for about a year now, and of course its way to could to shipp to michigan right now,

so i will wait till summer,,,

im just saying for use poorer people, If you want one just set a buget who care's if it take a year to get all the money its a hole lot better then just decideing one day hey lets spend our rent and some other bill money to go get a pied, and alot of breeders will even let you set up a payment plan right threw them if you wanted to go that rought

Breeders have been working on Pied combo's. Either breeding Pieds to Albino's, Axanthics, Ghost, etc... and producing Double Hets. Otherwise breeding their Pieds to Pastels, Mojo's, Spiders, etc...Making Pastel het Pieds, Mojo het Pieds, Spider het Pieds etc... and not necessarily producing Pieds.

As the Pastel het Pieds, and other female Morph het Pieds begin to reach breeding size, and are bred to Pied males in order to produce Pastel Pieds, Mojo Pieds, Spieds, etc... regular Pieds will be the by product. Just as Pastels and Spiders are the by product of Bees.

For example, a breeder working with Albino Spiders has male Albino Spider's and breeds them to every Albino, and het Albino they can in order to produce as many Albino Spiders as possible.
Albino's and Spider het Albino's are the by products, and will be produced at a higher rate than the Albino Spiders.

When that happens the base Morph is going to have a higher supply than the demand for them, and the price will drop.
With so many breeders working on making the many possible Pied combo's it won't be long before a regular Pied is $500. - $800.
Some people who were crying that others were "killing the market" when they priced 08' Pieds at $1200. this time last year are now dropping the price of the 08's they could not sell to that same price range and they are juvies now, not hatchlings.
What do you think hatchlings will be going for this May/June?

i purcashed a pair of hets ( from 2 different breeders) .last summer ( 2007) I am hoping to breed them this coming fall. ( the females is already 1000 grams) I will be keeping the first male and possible female t obreed back to the parents when they are of age. to have better chance at more pieds. but I also am not ognigot be charging the arm andleg price for them. even if it gets people mad at me lol.. I do it for the joy of the experience and not the profit part. I am on disablity and it took me almost 2 years to get the fund together and squirreled awaay as my grandmother called it ot getthe hets. I got lucky on both causes cause the person(s) in question cut me a deal. I also managed to aquire a better way to fund my reptile love with some work during the summer for exercise and I happen to turn a buck. THat allowed me to aquire a ablino male and a set of het axanthics. this was also made easier wit hfriend help cause he started to drive a rig for a living and was paying me to watch the snakes . Now with the reptile rescues I am doing I get plenty of calls and sometime offerdo for supplies to help easy my growing love. I now need a loving partner and a larger place to live since I have turned a 3rd bedroom nito a reptile room lol..

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Originally Posted by Texas Dan

Well, somebody needs to have a freaking sale so us normal people can afford one.

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Buy hets and produce one. That's what I did....and my hets were $4k pair in 2003. My first breeding produced 4 pieds and 5 pos. hets. My second breeding produced 4 more pieds and 4 more pos. hets. Now I'm producing Pewters het for pied, pastels het pied, and more. Het pairs can be found now for around $500, and maybe less. Save your pennies and get some. You'll appreciate them more.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

Breeders have been working on Pied combo's. Either breeding Pieds to Albino's, Axanthics, Ghost, etc... and producing Double Hets. Otherwise breeding their Pieds to Pastels, Mojo's, Spiders, etc...Making Pastel het Pieds, Mojo het Pieds, Spider het Pieds etc... and not necessarily producing Pieds.

As the Pastel het Pieds, and other female Morph het Pieds begin to reach breeding size, and are bred to Pied males in order to produce Pastel Pieds, Mojo Pieds, Spieds, etc... regular Pieds will be the by product. Just as Pastels and Spiders are the by product of Bees.

For example, a breeder working with Albino Spiders has male Albino Spider's and breeds them to every Albino, and het Albino they can in order to produce as many Albino Spiders as possible.
Albino's and Spider het Albino's are the by products, and will be produced at a higher rate than the Albino Spiders.

When that happens the base Morph is going to have a higher supply than the demand for them, and the price will drop.
With so many breeders working on making the many possible Pied combo's it won't be long before a regular Pied is $500. - $800.
Some people who were crying that others were "killing the market" when they priced 08' Pieds at $1200. this time last year are now dropping the price of the 08's they could not sell to that same price range and they are juvies now, not hatchlings.
What do you think hatchlings will be going for this May/June?

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Do you have pieds?

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Not necessarily true, Pieds and het pieds generally aren't the best eaters. Slow eating girls = slow production.

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Says who? Mine all eat great. My original female het is around 4000-4500 grams. My pieds are 2000+. My yearling pastel het pieds are 1200-1300. My problem feeders have always been pastels.....friends have said the same.

You know, if someone wants to sell me a pied for say.. $100, i'd do it tomorrow.

hets are he best specially if they are from a proven breeder . I find out next year if the 2 snakes i got from different breeder prove out and man watch out then lol. I will need otget a reptile shippnig apprved I guess.

Pieds are nice, and well worth it if you can afford them. They are not my #1 though. The price may have gone down, but my love will always be an albino. I cannot afford one on my income, but I can save up for a pair of hets, and I will get them. One day I hope to produce an albino-pied...so amazing (not the dreamsicle-lav albino+pied, though those are nice too)

A lot of people would not think twice about albinos, because there are so many, but I love them. All that really matters is what you think, nobody else's opinion matters when it comes to getting/producing YOUR dream snake.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Buy hets and produce one. That's what I did....and my hets were $4k pair in 2003. My first breeding produced 4 pieds and 5 pos. hets. My second breeding produced 4 more pieds and 4 more pos. hets. Now I'm producing Pewters het for pied, pastels het pied, and more. Het pairs can be found now for around $500, and maybe less. Save your pennies and get some. You'll appreciate them more.

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I started out with the same idea... Get hets and make my own pied... Note the signature saying I'm getting poss. het pieds next month lol... But the more I think about it... I really, REALLY want to get a visual male to breed to them.

*sigh* There goes my tax return. :D

Historically, what have prices been like? I went to the NARBC show last weekend and saw one for the first time. I think they were ~$1500-2000.

I'm just curious what a similar snake would have cost a year ago? Two years ago, etc?

Pieds two years ago were 5000.00 and the year before that they were 8K

Wow, so the people who are selling $1800 hatchlings probably paid $15,000 for the parents? Interesting.

If $1200 for a Pied is too much for you, you have the option of buying a pair of Hets for much less.

If a Ferrari was affordable to everyone, would it still be a "Ferrari?"

I can't take credit for this insight, as I originally heard it from Garrick DeMeyer of crestedgecko.com

If you want to find the snakes that have mass appeal, bring over a group of friends who are non-educated about snakes, but still interested in learning. Take out various morphs, and with little commentary of your own see which ones make them go "ooooh" and "aaaah". There are some morphs that will always be in that list, and so will always be in demand by the general public. Pied is on that list, and so is ALWAYS a solid investment at any price.

Just my .02.

JonV