about to make the dreadful switch :tears:

ok heres the situation ... ive had my BP for a few months now n up unttill about a month ago she seemed to have lost interest in F/T.. instead of the fast n furious snap n wrap she would just kinda slide sniff around and eventually decide to eat it with any sort of constriction... then 3 weeks ago she decided she didnt want anything to do with any of it... so my next step is to try F/T rat pups n if that doesnt work ill go to live, so my questions are - has anyone else experinced something similar ?? n everyone says when feeding live to supervise to make sure the prey doesnt fight back - what would u do if the prey fights back ??... :bow:

You can always hold your prey item with hemostats.

u mean tongs rite ??.... but wouldnt they interfer wouldnt with the snake trying to constrict?... or would the danger pretty much be over by then ?

Yes tongs. Adam from 8 ball has a very good video on his site. Brian from BHB also has some good feeding videos. Take a look at these videos and Im sure all your questions will be answered.

thanks man ... shoulda looked a lil harder my self

You could use a kill chamber for rats (I am in the process of putting one together), I fed one of my balls a sm rat for the first time fri and I was a little nervous even though I used tongs all went well, I tried that thumping method, but either I'm a weakling or just a wuss, I didn't render it unconcious, so kill chamber for me

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Originally Posted by llovelace

You could use a kill chamber for rats (I am in the process of putting one together), I fed one of my balls a sm rat for the first time fri and I was a little nervous even though I used tongs all went well, I tried that thumping method, but either I'm a weakling or just a wuss, I didn't render it unconcious, so kill chamber for me

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I'm pretty sure he was saying the snake is not responding to f/t, so it would doubtfully respond to anything else dead..

Many people feed live all the time to hundreds of snakes with no problems. If you see the mouse starting to bite the snake (which it probably won't be able to even if it looks like it is) you can stick a pen in it's mouth to make sure it doesn't do any damage.

Don't hover over the snake though, it could cause it to not feed.
Also, if you want to feed f/t at all, you should try feeding in the enclosure if you are already not. They will feel much safer in their own home then in a separate new place.

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Originally Posted by Jeff Krupa

Yes tongs. Adam from 8 ball has a very good video on his site. Brian from BHB also has some good feeding videos. Take a look at these videos and Im sure all your questions will be answered.

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Please, watch Adam's videos. I second this suggestion. Adam's video is great, and it's exactly how I feed my snakes. I haven't had any issues with holding the rat by the nape of the neck with my tongues and holding the rat about 3-4 inches away from the snakes head. This works with mice too. You should get a straight, face-on strike. No biting there, save from the snakes. ^_^

i would feed in her enclosure but i have eco-earth substrate ... not to mention a rather cramped cage with room to lay enough paper towle down to feed on... but the main reason for not wanting to go live is that its a lot easier to keep a freezer full of food on hand

wouldnt it be possible to get a bite inside the mouth with a face strike n not see it happen ??

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

i would feed in her enclosure but i have eco-earth substrate ... not to mention a rather cramped cage with room to lay enough paper towle down to feed on... but the main reason for not wanting to go live is that its a lot easier to keep a freezer full of food on hand

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-Bites her bottom lip.- While, I don't normally condone feeding in a separate enclosure, you might think of that as an option. I used to feed my big female in the bathtub. O_o How large is the enclosure? What are you using?

And please, please, please, don't be offended by this, but it's not about what's easier for you, but what's best for your snake. -Shrugs.-

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

wouldnt it be possible to get a bite inside the mouth with a face strike n not see it happen ??

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I don't understand what your saying, but theres no way I could ever see a snake getting bitten inside the mouth?

There would be nothing to grab on to and bite..

Eco-earth should be fine, unless he gets a sole mouthful of it, a little bit won't hurt him. I highly suggest feeding in the enclosure anyway.

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I don't understand what your saying, but theres no way I could ever see a snake getting bitten inside the mouth?

There would be nothing to grab on to and bite..

Eco-earth should be fine, unless he gets a sole mouthful of it, a little bit won't hurt him. I highly suggest feeding in the enclosure anyway.

---

I do too. -Sighs.- I do with all of mine, now.

Are you doin the dead prey dance and wigglin it around for her? It sounds like you're just setting it in a enclosure. If you use tongs to move your pre-killed around it might help keep interest. I might be misunderstanding something though.

Good luck!

There is a difference between f/t & fresh killed as far as scent and body temp

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Originally Posted by Melicious

-Bites her bottom lip.- While, I don't normally condone feeding in a separate enclosure, you might think of that as an option. I used to feed my big female in the bathtub. O_o How large is the enclosure? What are you using?

And please, please, please, don't be offended by this, but it's not about what's easier for you, but what's best for your snake. -Shrugs.-

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how can u condone feedin in the tank ??... if u have loose substrate u run the risk of impaction


its not nessecerly whats best for the snake ... but how big my wallet is :colbert:..... but shes in a 10 gallon glass tank- with 2 hides n good size water dish - ... shes only maybe 24'' long now, im planing on making a custom enclosure in the near future.

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

how can u condone feedin in the tank ??... if u have loose substrate u run the risk of impaction


its not nessecerly whats best for the snake ... but how big my wallet is :colbert:..... but shes in a 10 gallon glass tank- with 2 hides n good size water dish - ... shes only maybe 24'' long now, im planing on making a custom enclosure in the near future.

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Well, I use newspaper in my tubs and rack. I don't particularly like the loose substrates because they're a pain to clean, and the snakes are content on their paper.

Even still, invest in a pair of hemostats/tongs/tweezers and use those to feed. You shouldn't have any issues if you're feeding in that matter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I don't understand what your saying, but theres no way I could ever see a snake getting bitten inside the mouth?

There would be nothing to grab on to and bite..

Eco-earth should be fine, unless he gets a sole mouthful of it, a little bit won't hurt him. I highly suggest feeding in the enclosure anyway.

---

well if the snakes aim is off... which isnt the greatest to begin with ... the mouse/rat could def get a chance to chomp on the inside of the snakes mouth... which as it turns out a really hard area to treat

Warming up and wiggling dead prey on tongs is always helpful but live will get better feeding responses.

That said, I feed 50+ snakes live every week, thats what they do. If you feed the appropiate size rodent(not too big) it will be easily overcome.

You always wanna check your ambient temps in wintertime because a cooler room can weaken their feeding habits.

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

well if the snakes aim is off... which isnt the greatest to begin with ... the mouse/rat could def get a chance to chomp on the inside of the snakes mouth... which as it turns out a really hard area to treat

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You're talking about What-Ifs. I'm giving you some great options and you're playing the what-if game. If YOU do it correctly, you should have very minimal issues. I'm not trying to dissuade you from feeding frozen/thawed. That's a choice you and your snake need to figure out. I'm giving YOU options for feeding live, because I've done it for a long time. It's up to you. You can also use tongs/hemostats/tweezers, and dangle the prey item just as a few other people have suggested.

You should also scent the room. There's a great DIY on pre-scenting as well. http://ball-pythons.net/modules/Sect...warticle&id=60

I always feed live and have only once had a problem with the snake getting bit and it was partially my own fault. I placed the rat too close to the snake in the enclosure, but it wasn't near his head.

As long as you are smart about feedin live by prescenting, and placing the rat on the opposite end of the enclosure you should be able to do it pretty safely. I feed in a 40qt tub and usually I take the cool hide out to open up a little more space for the snake to work with.

If you are nervous about the first time, start with a small meal to build up the snakes confidence.

The other idea that I have had (but never tried) is that you could put the rat in a pillowcase and spin it around a bunch. Now you have a disoriented rat (but still live). That would be an easy way to do the switch. Do a few disoriented rats then when your snake is a pro at eating those you could stop spinning em. Again this has not been tested by myself but it seems like a good idea to me.

spinngin the rat ... sounds like fun lol ... ill have to give it a try !

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

spinngin the rat ... sounds like fun lol ... ill have to give it a try !

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-Blinks a couple times.- I got in trouble the last time I made an off-the-color comment like that.

Anyways, I'd first try pre-scenting the room. Mayhap you could hit up a reputable pet store around your area, pick up some of their shavings from their rat/mice bin, and scent the room for half-an-hour and then try your f/t off of the tongs. Take it in small steps. You're obviously head shy about feeding live, so why not try and stay as far away from that as possible.

I have a little hypo female who came to me and had been eating f/t.

She refused all f/t from after about the third feeding. She lost a lot of weight. I put a live mouse in with her (about 21g). Wham!!! She ate it.

She now always gets live mice and they are about 32g (hypo weighs 550g now). She took a multiples once or twice, but really only takes one mouse at one feeding. To compensate, I feed her every 5 or 6 days depending on the gram weight of the mouse. She (the snake) continues to gain weight.

I always pre-scent, I feed her in her enclosure, she has never been bitten and I doubt a mouse that size could do much harm.

That's the story of my little hypo girl :P

Hi,

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Originally Posted by skaplan86

The other idea that I have had (but never tried) is that you could put the rat in a pillowcase and spin it around a bunch. Now you have a disoriented rat (but still live). That would be an easy way to do the switch. Do a few disoriented rats then when your snake is a pro at eating those you could stop spinning em. Again this has not been tested by myself but it seems like a good idea to me.

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Sounds like a perfect way to gaurantee your prey item is frightened and more likely to bite to me. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

spinngin the rat ... sounds like fun lol ... ill have to give it a try !

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I really wouldn't.


dr del

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

how can u condone feedin in the tank ??... if u have loose substrate u run the risk of impaction

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I feed all of mine in their enclosure - on any kind of bedding, used to be aspen. I've fed ball pythons at NERD on cypress bedding. There is no one in the wild making sure that snakes aren't consuming leaf litter and twigs. They are perfectly adapted for ingesting small amounts of substrate with no negative effects.

While I've heard the warnings of impaction, I've never personally heard of anyone report that their ball python became impacted from ingesting substrate.

Their stomach's break down bones, toenails, teeth, fur - a little bit of substrate will also be broken down as well.

I'm the opposite of you though, I don't have freezer space to keep a bunch of frozen, so I've always fed live. Never had any significant issue with it, and I've fed off over 4000 prey items since I've been keeping ball pythons.

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

spinngin the rat ... sounds like fun lol ... ill have to give it a try !

---

Please don't - and it's not fun. There's absolutely no reason to. I don't stun or abuse the prey in any way. A calm prey item is much better than a fearful one.

I have a couple that were trouble. My one female was a good f/t rat feeder but when i bought her the move stressed her enough that she went off food. So I had to switch her to mice. She seemed to like them more. Once she was feeding consistantly i put her back onn rats, starting with a smller rat to begin with then moved her back to her usuall meduim f/t rats. Another female I bought was on f/t baby rabbits. She wanted nothing to do with anythinf ekse until I offered her live mice,(live rats are illigal here) she is now feeding better each time, accepting more mice with each feeding. I will eventually offer her f/t mice and once consistant in them I will offer the f/t rats. I do put live in with her and there has never been a problem. If worried about the mouse chewing on the snake, it is most likely hungry so I will leave a piece of cat or dog kibble in the cage too and the mouse would much rather chew on that.

Like I have said before, I am still new to the world of snakes, and am learning more every day.

That said, when we first got our ball she refused to eat F/T, and would not touch a stunned prey. If there were tongues anywhere near the prey she would completely ignore it. So we tried live, and she had a very very lively feeding response. So I kind of came to a conclusion (and please do not take this as a slight against anyone who does F/T or stunned prey).

As I understand it, snakes kind of have a weak immune system. So a wounded or dead animal in the wild would be more likely to carry disease. Yeah I know that we are all feeding clean prey, but the snakes do not know that, so evolution has taught them that alive is good, wounded is ok because it expends less energy to get its meal, and dead could be bad.

I don’t know much about how well snakes smell, but we are still learning a lot about exactly what other kinds of animals can tell by their sense of smell. As decomposition starts the moment an animal dies, it would not be unreasonable to theorize that a snake can tell the difference between a live rodent, and one that is dead.

I don’t know if I am correct, but it makes sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Kryptonian

If worried about the mouse chewing on the snake, it is most likely hungry so I will leave a piece of cat or dog kibble in the cage too and the mouse would much rather chew on that.

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im fairly new to BP husbandry aswell ... and after seeing some pics of half eaten snakes ... i will never ever leave a live prey in a cage unsupervised ... and also to note that u should feed ur live mice/rats cat or dog food, it contain a food colouring agent that is poisonous ... i forget the name of it but im sure someone else does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

im fairly new to BP husbandry aswell ... and after seeing some pics of half eaten snakes ... i will never ever leave a live prey in a cage unsupervised ... and also to note that u should feed ur live mice/rats cat or dog food, it contain a food colouring agent that is poisonous ... i forget the name of it but im sure someone else does.

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If it is poisonous to mice, then it would likely be poisonous to dogs and cats as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

im fairly new to BP husbandry aswell ... and after seeing some pics of half eaten snakes ... i will never ever leave a live prey in a cage unsupervised ... and also to note that u should feed ur live mice/rats cat or dog food, it contain a food colouring agent that is poisonous ... i forget the name of it but im sure someone else does.

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You're learning already. Good. -Smiles.- Feeding live can be safe and enjoyable(I enjoy seeing the feeding response very much) as well as feeding frozen/thawed. You just have to be THERE to observe your snake. Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Typical_08

If it is poisonous to mice, then it would likely be poisonous to dogs and cats as well.

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i miss typed ... its fine for the mice but really bad for the snake !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

how can u condone feedin in the tank ??... if u have loose substrate u run the risk of impaction


its not nessecerly whats best for the snake ... but how big my wallet is :colbert:..... but shes in a 10 gallon glass tank- with 2 hides n good size water dish - ... shes only maybe 24'' long now, im planing on making a custom enclosure in the near future.

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What? No way. I feed both snakes live, in the tank, with aspen. Never a problem. Rat bones are way tougher than some aspen substrate. I don't think this would ever be an issue if you use the right substrate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

im fairly new to BP husbandry aswell ... and after seeing some pics of half eaten snakes ... i will never ever leave a live prey in a cage unsupervised ... and also to note that u should feed ur live mice/rats cat or dog food, it contain a food colouring agent that is poisonous ... i forget the name of it but im sure someone else does.

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With the feeding response of my snakes, the mouse wouldn't get a chance to eat the kibble. Given the choice between the mouse eating kibble or eating the snake, I'd choose kibble. If your snake hasn't eaten him before he has a chance to hunker down and eat the kibble, he's not going to eat him anyway.

The pictures that you've seen of half eaten snakes are from a keeper leaving a rodent in the enclosure for DAYS at a time, not from a normal live feeding. The anti-live supporters often use them to sensationalize why you shouldn't feed live. A rodent being constricted isn't able to do the damage that is shown in those pictures while it's gasping to take a breath. That's more of an FYI - those pictures horrified me as well - until I was told the true story behind them. Well, it's still horrifying, but not a result of someone feeding their snake live, but rather as a result of irresponsible snake keeping.

So true Robin.
My hypo has already caught and constricted the mouse before I even get the tub drawer closed!!! (That's where pre-scenting works wonders; she knows what's coming ;))

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Originally Posted by Skoalbasher

What? No way. I feed both snakes live, in the tank, with aspen. Never a problem. Rat bones are way tougher than some aspen substrate. I don't think this would ever be an issue if you use the right substrate.

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ya but the bones come in a wrapped up package that is fairly well stream lined ... and once the prey item makes it to the stomach they remain there untill fully digested ...a random chunck of aspen travelling down the snakes digestive track with its jagged edges could most definatly get caught up and cause some serious side effects ....

Here are some tips to feed live

Pre-scent the room

Supervise feeding

Feed smaller preys, feeding a small rats (4 weeks old – 65-85 grams) not only is enough for an adult but it will also reduce the risk of injury

Remove the prey if not eaten within 20 minutes.

Do not stun or abuse the prey prior to feeding (This is pretty common sense but obviously not for everyone :rolleyes:)

I feed over live 150 preys each months and none of my snakes ever sustained any injury.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

There is no one in the wild making sure that snakes aren't consuming leaf litter and twigs.

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Thank you for making that point and saving me from having to.

I have fed many many snakes over the years on cypress and eco-earth/peat mixes and they are more than capable of ingesting and passing a small amount of the stuff. It would take a huge amount of eco-earth to cause an impaction, significantly more than the very minor amount that may accidentally be taken up by a mis-strike.

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

ya but the bones come in a wrapped up package that is fairly well stream lined ... and once the prey item makes it to the stomach they remain there untill fully digested ...a random chunck of aspen travelling down the snakes digestive track with its jagged edges could most definatly get caught up and cause some serious side effects ....

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You're overthinking things. First, I'm not sure what type of aspen you're using, but none of the kind I've every used has had random chunks in them. Secondly, breeders have been feeding on cypress mulch (that DOES have chunks in them) for YEARS with no ill effects. Can you name anyone who has actually had an injury as a result of feeding on substrate?

My point is - people sensationalize "what if" scenarios, and yet no one seems to know first hand someone that it's happened to.

If F/T is more convenient for you - then use F/T.

The people responding here are giving you common sense answers to your other options and shared their REAL LIFE experiences doing so. I've fed over 4000 live prey items in the last 4 years to multiple snakes, on many different types of bedding. I've not had a single injury, I've not had any impactions, no one has keeled over from eating a rodent that may have chowed down on dog kibble.

Fearing the worst outcome, when the best outcome is your more likely outcome seems exhausting to me.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

...
Fearing the worst outcome, when the best outcome is your more likely outcome seems exhausting to me.

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Kudos Robin; I totally agree :)

What I mean is that I dont leave the prey unnatended for long time but my one girl will not eat if being watched. I put the kibble since the mouse will chew on it rather than bounce around in the cage which tends to freak this girl out. If it is sitting still chewing then she comes up to it slowly and strikes. I can see her from the front of the rack but i have to do just that put the mouse in her bin and just put her bin nack in the rack, within a couple hours she will get the mouse. This is the only snake I leave a mouse with unnatended for longer yhan 5 mins, As her feeding responce gets better I will no longer have the need to do this. She is getting better with each feeding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Fearing the worst outcome, when the best outcome is your more likely outcome seems exhausting to me.

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And very counter-productive. I mean, with that kind of thinking, he might as well not buy the snake, because he could be bitten and it might hurt. O_o

We just want you to be responsible, hon. Nothing more, nothing less, and we're giving you our life experiences. YES! Snakes have been attacked, but not because of anything the snake did, but because the owner was IRRESPONSIBLE. That's the kicker. As long as YOU are responsible, feeding live is wonderful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SnM_Man

how can u condone feedin in the tank ??... if u have loose substrate u run the risk of impaction

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How in the world do they survive in the wild? :O

Feeding strike over !!!!! :p

I've experienced exactly the same thing with mine. He's a 15 months old and I've fed him rats since he was a month old. Up until 2 months ago he gradually refused to eat frozen rats in the very same way as you described.
I even tried a frozen mouse and a pre killed mouse and he will just sniff around and leave. Otherwise he seems perfectly healthy and comes out around the cage every night. His set up is great and temps/hum are perfect.
So at this point I guess I'll wait because as picky as he's become, I have a feeling that if he eats live mice once he'll bever go back to frozen. For that reason as much as I like balls I hate them too. I can feed my boas live and frozen anytime and they'll never ever refuse and be picky. Good luck and keep us posted. :(

well all i did was change the way i prep her meal ... i used to just grab a mouse outta the freezer put it in a bowl with some warm water until it thawed out then warm it up with some hot water... this time i was careful not to touch the mouse at all put it in a plastic bag n thawed it out and warmed it up with water ... still not a snap n wrap response but she actually constricted it this time and gobbled it down so im a lil bit happier... so hopefully shes eats next week ... maybe ill try two mice

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Originally Posted by drugaria

I've experienced exactly the same thing with mine. He's a 15 months old and I've fed him rats since he was a month old. Up until 2 months ago he gradually refused to eat frozen rats in the very same way as you described.
I even tried a frozen mouse and a pre killed mouse and he will just sniff around and leave. Otherwise he seems perfectly healthy and comes out around the cage every night. His set up is great and temps/hum are perfect.
So at this point I guess I'll wait because as picky as he's become, I have a feeling that if he eats live mice once he'll bever go back to frozen. For that reason as much as I like balls I hate them too. I can feed my boas live and frozen anytime and they'll never ever refuse and be picky. Good luck and keep us posted. :(

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I agree BP's are deffinately my fav's but even when ppl are doing everything to the T their eating habits still drive me nuts at times. But I have learned to never touch the F/T with my bare hands. I had one BP back in the day during his rat pup stage would not touch anything (live/PK/FT) if it did not have black on it. If anything was solid white ya forget it!

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

I agree BP's are deffinately my fav's but even when ppl are doing everything to the T their eating habits still drive me nuts at times. But I have learned to never touch the F/T with my bare hands. I had one BP back in the day during his rat pup stage would not touch anything (live/PK/FT) if it did not have black on it. If anything was solid white ya forget it!

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I never touch roddents with my bare hands and still ball python's feeding habbits suck. I've tryed everything from having roddents with perfect body temperature to dry and wet roddents, blowing them with hairdryer prescenting the room etc and nothing helps . This guy's are just a pain. I wish I never started with a ball python, but i've had it for so long I can't just get rid of it.

Anyhow I decided to try live and since the little s. has never seen a live rodend in his life it was a bit confused but stroke with lightning speed within a minute and then I fed him another live mouse .
So now thereis no going back , but at least he's eating and the mice are free.
So I guess I'm stuck with breeding mice... Good luck to you all !

Ok no offense to anyone but ball pythons go off feed right? They can decide not to eat and that's normal to a certain extent right? Is three weeks a long time for them to stop eating?

My snake decided to refuse a meal (adult f/t mouse) on 12/18. So what I did was try again on 12/23. Same thing I do every time. Thawed the mouse in the room, heated the mouse to around 100 degrees. Heated the head up in some hot water for a minute. dried the head with a paper towel, presented the mouse in the snakes enclosure, wiggled it about till my arm got tired, waited 10 minutes, heated again presented the tasty mouse, she refused. Now she has totally ruined Christmas at this point. I didn't let on though, I just acted like it was any other day. So then, get this I am at my wits end on 12/28 so I do the exact same thing I did the...hold on....15 times before she decided to refuse and this time...she refused again. So now I am actually angry and nervous. So I head back to my old stand by...the web...and I go to www.ball-pythons.net and I read up on all the people freaking out like me and I remember that its normal. Ok so this is where the story gets good. On 1/2, I do the same thing I do every time, I don't change a thing. This time she comes out of her hide. Strikes, constricts for a few minutes, drags her mouse back into her hide and I am assuming eats it. I went to bed and in the morning the mouse was not there. So either one of the cats found a way to get in and out with out leaving any signs or else she ate it. Actually that was a joke, I weighed her on 1/4 and she is definitely one mouse heavier. Not going to lie I thought about trying to feed live, but then I listened to all the great posts and said you know what, I keep really good records, she gets fed every 5 days and weighed two days after/two days before a meal and based on my math she lost a little weight and a bunch of potential weight. No big deal. Now we are back on schedule and we will stay that way until she decides otherwise which could be at any moment and I am ok with that.

Long post I know but my moral is maybe we should not be switching things up every time we offer prey. This breed is easily stressed and anorexic at the drop of a hat. That being said its your snake, I only know what you shared with us, good luck to you and your snake.