Help Please....

I have a trio of ASF's I have had them about two weeks now.

They have been acting fine up until today. I went to clean their cage today and they were acting kinda jumpy when I was trying to pick them up and were trying to bite me.

I clean out their cage with a 10% bleach 90% water mix, wiped it down twice with paper towels, put in fresh aspen, water, new hopper and food.

I go back in to check on them and one of the females is laying on her back panting VERY hard and the male was next to her panting hard (I don't think they were trying to procreate). I rolled her over and she just kinda laid there panting. I left her alone for a little bit. I go back in there to check on her again about 15 min later and she was laying on her side still panting, and the other 1.1 were in the corner huddled up. I picked her up and she did nothing didn't wiggle didn't squirm nothing.... just panting....

A few other questions....

The females are about twice the size of the male. Is this normal?

Is there any one in the D/FW area with ASF's? I would like to buy some from another source. Just to have a fresh line of blood.

unless they are much younger, the males should never be smaller then the females.

I have never experienced what you are explaining. Definately sounds bad. Sorry.

She is just kinda stumbling around (like she is drunk)

This so friggen sucks!!!!

The problem with ASF's is that in most places there aren't a lot around. Because of this, many are just one line that are inbreeded over and over again for years. The result is smaller then usual rats with colony specific health problems that develop over time.

This is why when I first started I traveled all over getting 4 unrelated lines. while my colony's babies are now mostly from various crosses between the lines, I still have breeding groups that are selectively bred 100% from the origional lines.

The male being so small leads me to believe that this may be the problem.

That said, it could also be the ages of your group. Many breeders when selling ASF's sell groups of different ages... Or they sell what are basicly X-breeders knowing that you want to breed yourself. IMHO, this is shady business practices at best. Often they sell females that have already had many litters and are already at the end of their reproductive life. This may also be why the male is smaller. You may have been sold 2 females at the end of their reproductive life and a younger male.

Sure it could be something wrong with husbandry, or just some kind of normal sickness... but that doesn't add up with a male smaller then the females.

Any time you buy a group for breeding, and don't know a whole lot about the breeder, you should just buy them at the just weined size... and wait the couple months for the first litter. Then you know what you are working with. When I sell breeding groups the girls are virgins.

Mike

I have the female quarantined

She looks like she might be doing a little better she is not panting as hard and she is staying on all fours...

I really don't know what is going on.

I am setting up a separate tank to keep her in for a few days. I hope that she gets back to health and if she is sick then I really do not want my other two to get it.

I have offered her a little food and I will put some water in a shallow dish until i get her tank fully set up. I have to go into town and get some more supplies.

Just be careful. when you reintroduce her, there may be trouble.

Mike

OK things are starting to look better.

She doesn't seem lethargic any more.

She is still kinda stumbling around. I took about 40 pictures trying to get a good example to show. I could not get anything that does not seem normal in a still frame.

I figured it out though. You can go look at Connie's video of her ASF's that are walking strange. My one female is doing the same thing just much less coordinated. It looks very upsetting.

Her legs stretch straight out to the sides and she rolls over every now and then. She is also licking herself alot she is cleaning her feet and her "girl bits"

Her mammeries seem like she has been breed before... I was not told she had never been breed but that was what I thought I was getting.

So for all you first time buyers out there don't be afraid to ask questions. I have not yet contacted the person I bought my ASF's from to ask them these same questions. So it would be unfair to make any allegations of improper behavior on their part. They seemed like good people a nice home and respectable jobs. I do not think they would have tried to shiest me on purpose.

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Originally Posted by hoax

So for all you first time buyers out there don't be afraid to ask questions. I have not yet contacted the person I bought my ASF's from to ask them these same questions. So it would be unfair to make any allegations of improper behavior on their part. They seemed like good people a nice home and respectable jobs. I do not think they would have tried to shiest me on purpose.

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Please do not misunderstand me. I am not accusing the person who sold these rats to you of "shiesting" you. That would be totally unfair to the seller who may be completely innocent!

All I am doing is providing possible answers to your questions... I am giving you good questions to ask. I would certainly contact the seller, and ask a bunch of questions. If anyone ever experienced anything with my rats and did not contact me about it, I would not be able to fix it!!!!

Hoping Connie will chime in because as you stated she has had experience with this kind of thing... But IMHO I would not even consider continuing trying to breed her. I would feed her off and get new breeders.

Mike

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not accusing the person who sold these rats to you of "shiesting" you. That would be totally unfair to the seller who may be completely innocent!

All I am doing is providing possible answers to your questions... I am giving you good questions to ask. I would certainly contact the seller, and ask a bunch of questions. If anyone ever experienced anything with my rats and did not contact me about it, I would not be able to fix it!!!!

Hoping Connie will chime in because as you stated she has had experience with this kind of thing... But IMHO I would not even consider continuing trying to breed her. I would feed her off and get new breeders.

Mike

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Thank you for your reply.

I really should contact the breeder I am just so mad that I have to go through this...

I am really upset that my breeder got sick...

I do not have the BP to try to feed her too so I would not try to feed her off. fedding off sick animals does not make sense. why would i feed off a sick animal.

My main goal was to try to get my colony going so I could have plenty to feed. with out going to the pet store to buy feeders....

I will explain more tomorrow when I can...

I'm sorry this is happening, I too have no idea as to what it could be if it were viral or bacterial sickness.

One group of my ASF's have a genetic disease, I consider it to be a muscular and nervous disorder, simple recessive as well. The video shows some young ones that don't necessarily have the disease badly, it can rear its ugly head much worse.

If she improves over today, or not, let us know. I would advise finding another source regardless. If she has the genetic disease, no point in using her. We do not want to propagate this disease.

I am trying to find another source of breeders. She seems more normal this morning.

A few days ago I noticed a kinda limp in the other female...

Now this....

I am begining to think it is something genetic.

When I got them something did not look quite right. One female has bad bug eyes. and the other has like a swollen lower eye lid on one side.

The male seems absolutely normal. He is a wonderful looking cinnamon I am so sad that I will not be able to breed these guys.

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Originally Posted by hoax

I do not have the BP to try to feed her too so I would not try to feed her off. fedding off sick animals does not make sense. why would i feed off a sick animal.

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Nothing wrong with feeding a rat like this off. It is nature 101. The weaker, defective ones in nature are almost cerainly the ones to get eaten. It ain't going to hurt that snake if that is what you are worried about.



Mike

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Originally Posted by hoax

A few days ago I noticed a kinda limp in the other female...

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As they age, they often develop bad degenerative joint disease.

Or if a wheel is provided, they can break a leg or hurt themselves if the wheel is not solid, without any gaps from wire or spokes. Generally this is not such a hazard, but I have seen it happen.

So far the illness I have seen in my colony as they age all match up with what I have read online in journals at sites like pubmed etc, except for my hereditary muscle disorder which I'm not sure what it really is.

• The spontaneous warts or lesions that erupt from the skin, like cancerous tumors.
  
• Degenerative joint disease
  
• Hereditary muscular/nervous disorder
  
• Spontaneous loss of hair in large patches, mainly on the middle back down to rear, followed by small - medium sized bumps on skin, not associated with visible ecto parasites, but not ruled out entirely. (only 2 animals show out of 5 in same colony, they are also the oldest.)
  
• Frequent eye infections, mainly eye goop that seals the eye shut and needs only some drops of saline to open.

My point over all of this, is that there is no way to know if it is genetic, and not environmental, unless you line breed them. Since they really don't sound like good candidates for breeding, I wouldn't just for a lark, because unless you kept the two lines completely separate down the road in every way, you'd be continuing the passing on of the suspected disease if it were genetic...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Nothing wrong with feeding a rat like this off. It is nature 101. The weaker, defective ones in nature are almost cerainly the ones to get eaten. It ain't going to hurt that snake if that is what you are worried about.



Mike

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I just don't want to do anything that will hurt any of my animals (I know it hurts them when the snake squeezes them until they are purple I just mean unnecessarily)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

As they age, they often develop bad degenerative joint disease.

Or if a wheel is provided, they can break a leg or hurt themselves if the wheel is not solid, without any gaps from wire or spokes. Generally this is not such a hazard, but I have seen it happen.

So far the illness I have seen in my colony as they age all match up with what I have read online in journals at sites like pubmed etc, except for my hereditary muscle disorder which I'm not sure what it really is.

• The spontaneous warts or lesions that erupt from the skin, like cancerous tumors.
  
• Degenerative joint disease
  
• Hereditary muscular/nervous disorder
  
• Spontaneous loss of hair in large patches, mainly on the middle back down to rear, followed by small - medium sized bumps on skin, not associated with visible ecto parasites, but not ruled out entirely. (only 2 animals show out of 5 in same colony, they are also the oldest.)
  
• Frequent eye infections, mainly eye goop that seals the eye shut and needs only some drops of saline to open.

My point over all of this, is that there is no way to know if it is genetic, and not environmental, unless you line breed them. Since they really don't sound like good candidates for breeding, I wouldn't just for a lark, because unless you kept the two lines completely separate down the road in every way, you'd be continuing the passing on of the suspected disease if it were genetic...

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I guess I will breed these guys as feeders just until I can find some more to breed and then feed off the parents...

It is not really the way that i desire it to be. I just don't have much of a choice, there are no half decent places to get good feeders in my town. Heck I drove 2 hours one way to get these defectives....

Do I understand correctly that this happened right after you cleaned with bleach?

I know ammonia and bleach make a toxic chemical (I decided to use both to mop my basement once and it was really bad). Perhaps there was a reaction between the ammonia from their urine and the bleach you where cleaning with and a gas was filling the bottom of the cage. Might want to be sure and clean a couple times with just water at the end next time.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Do I understand correctly that this happened right after you cleaned with bleach?

I know ammonia and bleach make a toxic chemical (I decided to use both to mop my basement once and it was really bad). Perhaps there was a reaction between the ammonia from their urine and the bleach you where cleaning with and a gas was filling the bottom of the cage. Might want to be sure and clean a couple times with just water at the end next time.

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That's an idea there, I hadn't even thought of. I know I've always been told to clean my cats litter pan with ammonia just to avoid that situation. I wonder if it could have happened in this case?

If it's any help, I use diluted dish soap, give the tub a spray down with the soap, and wipe with a rag in the pee corner, then I rinse with high pressure until I can't smell the lemony scent of the dish soap. It does the job for me. :gj:

Also, I know your close to Dallas, don't we have a couple of members that keep ASF's down that way?

We do I just keep on forgetting who they are...

The only on I can remember is Sarah and I have to send her a PM.

I thought I cleaned out the bleach really really well.

I wiped it down twice. and then I went to clean the water bottle and I put in new shavings and put in their new chewies. and then put them in last...

It happened really quick and the others have not acted the same. The male is perfectly normal the female that has a limp has been like that for a couple of days.

Just to be on the safe side I will never use bleach again.


Do you think it is irresponsible of me to breed these guys just for feeders. They will be feed of as weanlings. I feel like a jerk I just can not afford to buy them all food right now. My wife is having surgery in two weeks and we have to pay for her school books.

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Originally Posted by hoax

Do you think it is irresponsible of me to breed these guys just for feeders. They will be feed of as weanlings. I feel like a jerk I just can not afford to buy them all food right now. My wife is having surgery in two weeks and we have to pay for her school books.

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Again, no, you should not breed them. Go to the local pet shop and buy mice for now if you have to. She is already obviously uncomfortable... and there is already something obviously wrong with her! Why would you want to on top of all that let her have 15 babies inside of her! Babies that will likely have the same issues themselves!!!

There is nothing wrong with cleaning with bleach. Just use common sense and spray it out with fresh water after. I would venture to say that the city water in Jacksonville, Florida has way more chemicals in it then your 10% bleach solution... And not only is that the water I clean the tanks with, it is also the water they drink!

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Again, no, you should not breed them. Go to the local pet shop and buy mice for now if you have to. She is already obviously uncomfortable... and there is already something obviously wrong with her! Why would you want to on top of all that let her have 15 babies inside of her! Babies that will likely have the same issues themselves!!!

There is nothing wrong with cleaning with bleach. Just use common sense and spray it out with fresh water after. I would venture to say that the city water in Jacksonville, Florida has way more chemicals in it then your 10% bleach solution... And not only is that the water I clean the tanks with, it is also the water they drink!

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OK that is what I will do. Thanks....

good luck. Post something in the for sale section. Surely there is someone in your area that can hook you up!

Well we don't have to worry about breeding her....

I come home and I have a dead ASF....

Well I guess, I will try to breed my 1.1

I will go post some thing in the for sale section.

And now I have 0.1.......

My male escaped!!!!!!!!!!

Jeeeeez makes me wanna pull my hair out!

how did he escape?! what are you keeping them in?

Are you sure it was the male? :please:

Imagine if a pregnant female is the one loose. They can overrun your house in a matter of months if you don't catch them. :weirdface

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Originally Posted by broadude

Are you sure it was the male? :please:

Imagine if a pregnant female is the one loose. They can overrun your house in a matter of months if you don't catch them. :weirdface

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not to worry they checw alot of cords so tehy are surely to get electrocuted and between then and eating their own i dont think they will be overrun :rofl:

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Originally Posted by broadude

Are you sure it was the male? :please:

Imagine if a pregnant female is the one loose. They can overrun your house in a matter of months if you don't catch them. :weirdface

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i was worried about this same thing when i had between 7-9 get out. i had caught 5 but wasnt sure how many were left. dont tell my wife i ever said this but good thing we have the 2 cats they ran them down one by one.

Hoax i sent you a PM.

I would put out a couple snap traps ASAP!!! There is a lot of responsability with keeping these little buggers. If they get out into the neighborhood and reproduce, you could start a disaster!

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I would put out a couple snap traps ASAP!!! There is a lot of responsability with keeping these little buggers. If they get out into the neighborhood and reproduce, you could start a disaster!

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I already have many snap traps out due to the fact my house already has mice...

I live way out in the country...

And it was a male. I think N. Texas is safe.

Thank you all for your help concern and replies! Just one more reason why BP net is the greatest "reptile" community on the net

I have found some ASF's about an hour from my house. But if any one has any resources please continue to PM me I would like to get multiple lines going to avoid inbreeding.

Thanks
Mike

The only thing I did was give the feamales each a baby carrot...

could that effect them?

I give mine baby carrots every week. That should not be it.

OK the ASF gods have decided to give me a break today....

I have talked to my newest BPnet friend and he has agreed to sell me some ASF's

two trios and some babies for $20....

A pretty good deal if you ask me.

Then i wake up the beautiful screams of my wife....

I found my male. He was in the bath tub..... With a trillion little turds.

I guess he was thirsty trying to get some water.

I put him in a separate little tank fed him and gave him water he has been eating ravenously and drinking like a man in the desert.

So on to one more question. I know this is generally a no no and I will not try it unless you guys think it can be pulled off. I know that you can not reintroduce a male into a established colony, but I have the one female and she has not been around any other ASF's since my male escaped. Do you think I could reintroduce the male if I cleaned the cage and gave him a bath to get off the smell of any thing else.....

Give it a go, they'll likely be fine.