Affects of racking your snakes?

Hello all this may have been asked and answered before yet I cannot find the thread, sorry if this is a repeat.

What are the effects on your snake if any by keeping them in a rack system (Specifically plastic tubs, not rack systems that hold glass tank after glass tank)?

My thoughts: It seems they wouldn't have ample room to really get comfortable or move around and explore, there's not usually 2 hides at each end (atleast in the majority of pics I've seen), does a rack allow for thermal gradients or is it just an overall temp? Does the temperament of the snake change, maybe they prefer it because there's less going on around them or at least what they can pick up on? Anything else I forgot to ask that you wanna chime in about feel free.

I know that racks obviously work and are a necessity I'm just confused as to how/why that works and when there's so much emphasis on good husbandry (different temps, 2 hides, water dish, plants etc...) I also know that everyone's snake racks are different, I'm asking for a general fyi on the subject.

Thanks in advance

Tubs tend to work better than glass tanks for maintaining temps and humidity. It creates a more stable environment that is less susceptible to change from the room temp/humidity changes. If the set up is done properly then yes, a proper thermo-gradient will be provided as it is necessary for the snakes well being.

Do you remember what kind of substrates the rack systems you viewed used? Many tubs are lined with newspaper/paper towels and the snakes can just burrow under them for a hide. Also, as the tub itself is usually compact and non-transparent, it acts as a hide itself.

BPs aren't very mobile snakes and prefer balling up in a secure, tight spot. Just another reason why tubs work great for them!

I switched my BP from a glass tank to a tub and couldn't be happier. Humidity was always a problem with the screen top and keeping ambient temps up was also difficult. IMO glass tanks work best for snakes with less husbandry requirements like corn snakes (the ambient temps and humidity can generally be kept to what the room is set at). Corn snakes are also more mobile and appreciate the extra roaming/climbing space.

Hope this helps! I'm by no means an expert but I've read tons and tons of posts by the experts so this post was based off their info and some of my experiences. :gj:

This will open up a great discussion!

As I understand things, there are four options for a snake keeper: a stand alone plastic tub, a rack system, a glass tank, and a reptile cage.

I have four rack systems and 6 reptile cages, all purchased from RBI. I am very happy with all of the products.

That said, I have noticed differences in the snakes in cages and the snakes in tubs:
-Snakes in cages have far greater opportunity to thermoregulate
-Snakes in cages have far greater opportunities for movement
-Snakes in cages can get away from their feces until morning when I clean them
-Snakes in cages eat as well as the snakes in the tubs... a lot of time, better.

However, and this is a big one, smaller snakes do better in smaller tubs, generally speaking. (Also, the individual snake's sense of security needs to be taken into account.)

I have a couple of snakes who might never go into a large cage-- they are just more comfortable in cramped quarters. I also have had young snakes go into the cages and thrive. It just all depends on the snake.

As for thermal gradients, I don't feel that there is enough of a gradient for a larger snake in a tub-- at least in a 32qt tub.

Anyway, there are just my thoughts and I'm sure others will have different, or similar, thoughts and experiences :)

Measuring temps in my racks shows a decent temputure gradient. The back is warmer, the front cooler. The bin in a rack seems to act as a hide in itself, and my snakes have rarely used a hide when I've put one or more into a rack(exceptions are small hatchlings, which will use a hide if I put it in the back, or face the opening towards the back).
My snakes seem to eat and shed better, and they seem more relaxed to me(other than feeding day). I think the greater privacy that a snake gets in a rack makes them feel more secure than the open tanks or cages.
Thankfully, ball pythons are amazingly resilant, and seem to thrive in a variety of set-ups. As long as the proper temps and humidity are kept, and the snake is eating and shedding well, I'd say it was a decently happy snake. I'm not rabidly FOR or AGAINST any racks, bins, tanks, or cages, as long as they are safe for the animal.

My snakes seem to love their tubs / rack systems. They are terrestrial creatures, so do not need a lot of cage height. The rack also keeps their heat and humidity perfect, unlike a lot of other cages. I do not use hides. They just hide under their paper bedding if they want to hide. They seem to have more than enough space to move around if the want too. In my opinion, ball pythons especially love tight dark spaces, so a tub in a rack system is perfect.

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Originally Posted by itsslug

It seems they wouldn't have ample room to really get comfortable or move around

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I've also wondered about this. When people post pictures of their setup in a glass tank, occasionally you'll see the comment "That tank is too small for your adult." But, I've seen more pictures of racks/tubs that are, imo, small, for adults. Alot of people have said they just use 41qt tubs for their adults I think? Those seem too small, to me anyway. They seem perfect for my juvies, but for adults... Is there a reason for this?

I'm just trying to figure out the right size tubs to get for my rack..

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Originally Posted by Lateralus_Love

I've also wondered about this. When people post pictures of their setup in a glass tank, occasionally you'll see the comment "That tank is too small for your adult." But, I've seen more pictures of racks/tubs that are, imo, small, for adults. Alot of people have said they just use 41qt tubs for their adults I think? Those seem too small, to me anyway. They seem perfect for my juvies, but for adults... Is there a reason for this?

I'm just trying to figure out the right size tubs to get for my rack..

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A 41 qt will comfortably house your largest ball python. I house all of my adults in approximately 41 qt tubs, sub-adults in 32 qt tubs, and hatchlings in 6qt tubs.

I have a CB-70 rack for my adult BPs, and they have plenty of room to streach out and move around. And go from the warm side to the cool side with no problem. hope this helps :salute:

We built our racks and they have a temp gradiant back to front, I do not use hides since the entire tub acts as one large burrow. I like the shoe box sized tubs for hatchlings up to 300g or so and then I like to move them up to the 32qt size tubs. I do feel that the 41qt tubs are a little small for my adult females (this is my comfort level and I am not saying people who use 41qt tubs are doing anything wrong) so we are working on a rack that uses the $12.00 tubs from walmart. Our other adult females are in a display cage that my bf built it is 36''x18''x9'' and holds 12 adult females.

I have also kept animals in tanks and I feel that in my experience my snakes eat, shed and grow better in rack systems. Even in our display cage we have a harder time in the winter when the heat is on and the hottest part of the summer when the air is on with incomplete shedding. I honestly think the reason balls do better with 2 hides in tanks is because they have 4 or more sides made of see through matterial making the ball feel more insecure. I agree with Theresa in that balls are very adapatable to the different types of set ups they can thrive in.

hoe big is a 41 qt tub if you use the metric system?

I use visions cb70 tubs for all my adult and I have females that's 4000 grams in there. They seem to do just fine and eat every week, perfekt sheds every time and so on...

Once again, I couldn't agree with Starmom more. I have had nearly the exact same results. Go Starmom!!!

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Originally Posted by Lateralus_Love

I've also wondered about this. When people post pictures of their setup in a glass tank, occasionally you'll see the comment "That tank is too small for your adult." But, I've seen more pictures of racks/tubs that are, imo, small, for adults. Alot of people have said they just use 41qt tubs for their adults I think? Those seem too small, to me anyway. They seem perfect for my juvies, but for adults... Is there a reason for this?

I'm just trying to figure out the right size tubs to get for my rack..

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I can't recall ever seeing anyone say that about a tank - more often than not, the comment is "that tank is too big for your baby", or someone will post a 79 gallon tank for an adult that doesn't need much more than a 40 gallon breeder.

Tubs and racks are far easier to maintain heat and humidity properly, my snakes seem to prefer smaller enclosures to larger - when moved to larger enclosures, some have to go back to smaller to feed again (will refuse food when in a larger enclosure).

The effect?

They are healthy, stress free, eat with consistency and breed

Yes rack do allow for thermal gradient just like a tank does you provide a hot pot and a cool spot.

As far as hides not everyone use them in a rack, personally I offer 1 which is moved around from cool to warm end. (I would rather provide 1 and have it not being used than not providing one and it being needed). Remember that rack offer more security than a tank which is why hides are not always necessary with a that kind of setting (it comes down to observing and knowing your animal.)

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Originally Posted by Lateralus_Love
I've also wondered about this. When people post pictures of their setup in a glass tank, occasionally you'll see the comment "That tank is too small for your adult." But, I've seen more pictures of racks/tubs that are, imo, small, for adults. Alot of people have said they just use 41qt tubs for their adults I think? Those seem too small, to me anyway. They seem perfect for my juvies, but for adults... Is there a reason for this?

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First I never seen comment such as

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That tank is too small for your adult

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however I have seen the opposite countless time and for a good reason.

Keep in mind that the footprint of a 41 quarts tub is about the same than a 30 gallons tank, and that BP are ground dwellers they do not require heights.

Also keep in mind that an adult does not require anything larger than a 30 gallons tank.

while I do not have a rack (yet) I recently moved my biggest bp from his glass tank to a tub for the winter, as humidity was impossible to keep up. I thought I would just do it for the winter, as his tank is a great display tank, but upon further review, I think I'm going to keep him in a tub. My other two balls went straight into 16q tubs when I got them, and man it is so much easier to take care of....easier to clean, easier to heat, much much easier to keep humidity up...

This spring I'm going to be working on a couple racks (one for 16q tubs and the other for 28q or whatever walmart is carrying at the time) and then filling them with snakes, and I have no doubts the rack will be enjoyed by my ball pythons

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Originally Posted by Smith285

while I do not have a rack (yet) I recently moved my biggest bp from his glass tank to a tub for the winter, as humidity was impossible to keep up. I thought I would just do it for the winter, as his tank is a great display tank, but upon further review, I think I'm going to keep him in a tub.

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Good Choice!

Honestly, if you want a display snake you're better of going with a nice colubrid (bull, corn, king etc...) They're extremely easy (relatively) to keep and are usually out looking around and climbing a lot more than a BP during the day.

I keep all of my balls in a couple of RBI 32qt racks. The babies and juvies (as well as one picky feeder who seems to love small spaces) are in divided tubs with one hide in the back.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/g...Balls00006.jpg
(Ignore the humidity lvls the bottom thermometer is busted and the top one was wet lol :D )
The older and larger snakes all have a full tub to themselves and I'll be getting a 15qt and a CB70 rack from RBI eventually for babies and large females (I've got a couple girls that I just KNOW are going to be freakin massive lol late 07 is already almost 900g she's gonna be a bigun lol). All of my snakes thermoregulate perfectly, the racks being completely enclosed and black I think make for a much more private feeling for them they always seem to be comfortable and I never have a problem feeding.

Wow, thanks guys for the input. I have a much better understanding now.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I can't recall ever seeing anyone say that about a tank - more often than not, the comment is "that tank is too big for your baby"

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I think the previous comment I made was standing out in my mind because of a recent post where someone had their adult in a tank that looked extremely small and a couple ppl commented on that. It had a half log hide that took up pretty much an entire half of the tank, and then the other half was a bit water dish, with hardly any open ground. I can't find the post though so whatever :P

Never really got the "lack of movement" arguement.

I watch my BPs that are in tubs, and they can do laps just as easy as any I ever kept in tanks.

Think about it.

Bruce

I think racks are proven to be the best way to keep most snakes.

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Originally Posted by greghall

I think racks are proven to be the best way to keep most snakes.

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I'm glad that several of my snakes don't know about this 'proof' ;)

I believe the post you were referring to is the following:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80758

I only know this because this was my post. For anyone that look at it, I found poo all over the log so I have since thrown it away. I have some questions about racks too. I'm either going to build my own or order the Iris or the one from JasonsJungle.com. I'm just wondering how well my boy will take to the rack after spending most of his life in the cage he's in (the cage on the link above). Seems as it related to opinions round here is you ask 10 different people, you'll get 10 different answers. I was re-reading that post above and one of the posters was saying that my snake might be stressed and not show it. Maybe he's right but I know what I see. He's never refused a meal in the 54 weeks I've had him, he's only had 2 bad sheds (one of them being the first after I got him) so I take that as a sign that hes content. Try a tub out before getting a rack, thats what I think I'm going to do. If you notice changes in behaviour then I'd re evaluate. Keep me posted on how you're progressing. Good luck

Chris

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Originally Posted by greghall

I think racks are proven to be the best way to keep most snakes.

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they have proven to be the easiest not the best. there has still not been anything that has shown that a properly kept tank is not just as good as a properly kept tub. bps have thrived and deteriorate in tubs and tanks.

How many quarts is a termite hole?

I don't want to hyjack but on a related question has anyone noticed any problems transitioning a sub-adult from a tank to a rack? I'm ordering a RBI system very soon and have a concern about switching my guys over.

I switched sub-adults and adults from tanks to racks and they loved it! You could tell they were more comfortable... I think they hated the fact that they weren't "hidden" because they would get really agitated when someone would walk by or whatever... I realized a couple weren't happy so I switched them all over and they are a lot more content!

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Originally Posted by adamsmasher

I don't want to hyjack but on a related question has anyone noticed any problems transitioning a sub-adult from a tank to a rack? I'm ordering a RBI system very soon and have a concern about switching my guys over.

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You shouldn't have any problems with that. If anything like Koolaid said they'll be more comfortable and all around happier snakes. They like being in small dark places so racks are an ideal setup for them. Good choice BTW RBI racks are top notch! I've got 2 right now and I plan to have a couple more by the end of the year.

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Originally Posted by adamsmasher

I don't want to hyjack but on a related question has anyone noticed any problems transitioning a sub-adult from a tank to a rack? I'm ordering a RBI system very soon and have a concern about switching my guys over.

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When I first got my rack I took all of my snakes from their tanks and put them in the rack system. Since then I have had to switched six adults back to their old tanks. They did not do well in the rack at all. But, all the others made the transition just fine. I guess it just depends on the snake.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

How many quarts is a termite hole?

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Haha, I think someone should head over to Africa and start measuring!

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Originally Posted by Jenn

When I first got my rack I took all of my snakes from their tanks and put them in the rack system. Since then I have had to switched six adults back to their old tanks. They did not do well in the rack at all. But, all the others made the transition just fine. I guess it just depends on the snake.

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i find that really hard to believe!

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

How many quarts is a termite hole?

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That's a mighty good question.

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Originally Posted by nixer

i find that really hard to believe!

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Don't find it hard to believe!! I have many snakes in RBI cages who have a hard time in a rack system. These are 2000g+ snakes and they just do really well in reptile cages.

I am of the opinion that there are many ways to house animals, including ball pythons, and that there is no 'right way'. I let the snake do the talking while I do the listening :)

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

How many quarts is a termite hole?

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Not enough to fit me?

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Originally Posted by nixer

i find that really hard to believe!

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Then you probably don't know how to set up a tank.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Don't find it hard to believe!! I have many snakes in RBI cages who have a hard time in a rack system. These are 2000g+ snakes and they just do really well in reptile cages.

I am of the opinion that there are many ways to house animals, including ball pythons, and that there is no 'right way'. I let the snake do the talking while I do the listening :)

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Just out of curiosity, what signs do the snakes show that they are not happy in the racks? Do they not eat? or just don't look happy or what? I haven't kept snakes nearly long enough to be able to tell if a snake is truly happy or not, so for all I know my snakes might hate their living situation haha

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Originally Posted by Jenn

Then you probably don't know how to set up a tank.

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I must not know also. I have a ball python that was kept in a tank most of his life. After six years he decided to quit eating. He kept that up for around six to eight months. I finally decided to put him in a rack system, which happened to be an RBI 32 quart rack system, and he started eating within the week. I now keep all of my ball pythons in racks, and they all do great.

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

How many quarts is a termite hole?

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:8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8::8:

Dude I was drinking a coke scroll down and well......

You should really warn people before giving out these little pearls of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

Just out of curiosity, what signs do the snakes show that they are not happy in the racks? Do they not eat? or just don't look happy or what? I haven't kept snakes nearly long enough to be able to tell if a snake is truly happy or not, so for all I know my snakes might hate their living situation haha

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I would like to know the answer to this too..

Alan

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Originally Posted by itsslug

I know that racks obviously work and are a necessity I'm just confused as to how/why that works and when there's so much emphasis on good husbandry (different temps, 2 hides, water dish, plants etc...) I also know that everyone's snake racks are different, I'm asking for a general fyi on the subject.

Thanks in advance

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I know exactly what your saying ;) I think it's mostly people think their way or the highway. IMO everyone keeps their BPs a little differently and some people think a 2 degree fluctuation is going to kill your snake. In all honesty I think they can live in a range of temps that may have a few degree difference from day to night, I'm *almost* positive it's not a perfect unchanging temp in the wild :D

I keep mine in a rack and some people would say it's too hot and some would say it's too cold. It's all personal opinion and BPs do flourish without two hides, or two really different heat gradients.

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Originally Posted by Smith285

Just out of curiosity, what signs do the snakes show that they are not happy in the racks? Do they not eat? or just don't look happy or what? I haven't kept snakes nearly long enough to be able to tell if a snake is truly happy or not, so for all I know my snakes might hate their living situation haha

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In my personal opinion the only way you would know is if they don't eat. If they don't eat you know something is wrong. Heat, cold, hide security, etc. I'm not quite sure I buy in to snakes having emotions, so I don't believe a snake is happy or unhappy, just environmentally satisfied or not satisfied :D

I usually think that a snake that is nervously roaming the enclosure, with jerky movements, and not eating, striking when the bin is opened... things like that make me think it is stressed. Or remaining balled up 24/7.
I'm usually pretty relaxed about husbandry. If your snake is healthy and eating, it's probably fine.
The things that I usually insist upon are temps within a reasonable range, and humidity(although as long as the snake is having whole sheds, I will refrain from compalints about humidity). I've heard people say that the temps drop to 65F at night, and that does get a response. But if the temps are above say... 75F and below 95F, I tend to be relaxed about it.
Mine are all kept at a even temp of about 85-90F 24/7. I use anything from back heat in the racks, to a room heater hooked to a thermostat. It's all worked really well in my opinion.
My snakes are generally relaxed, not roaming trying to escape, not too snappy when I open the bins, not balled up constantly, and rarely ever refuse to eat, even when in shed. So because of that, I feel they are "happy". I'll interpet "happy" as "content and comfortable".
Hope this helped.