IF there was a vegan diet option for BPs...

...Would you feed it to your snakes? We'll say the nutrition is equivalent, and they are somewhat rat-shaped.

I'm sure there would be some people who'd go for it.

No I would not...even if they were equal in the nutrition department.

Dogs chase Cats, Bears poop in the woods, and Ball Pythons eat Rodents:P
It's the whole circle of life, call of the wild thing.

No because theres no way you could get your ball python to eat it

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

No because theres no way you could get your ball python to eat it

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Seconded.

*bangs head on floor*

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Originally Posted by bruce whitehead

*bangs head on floor*

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:8:

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

No because theres no way you could get your ball python to eat it

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Really?

None?

Zero?

Nil?

Zip?

Nada?

LOL.

Carnivores eat meat.

But animals with a brain the size of a raisin shouldn't be able to stump an animal with the brain the size of a cantaloupe.

I'd bet you could get most of them to switch over provided the right scent and proper temps were there.

But hey, maybe not.

snicker snicker snicker

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

*bangs head on floor*

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Ditto!:weirdface

duh! hard enough to get them to eat rats!!!!!! millions of years of evolution can't be wrong!!

NO! I want my snakes to be strong and healthy.;)

I heard a story about a vegan household that kept pets. They tried to keep their cat on a vegan diet and didn't realize they need tuarine to survive. The cat was going bald and blind from lack of proper nutrition. They kept birds as well. The cat got the bright idea to eat one of the birds, the owners, sat it down and lectured it, telling it that it needed to live in harmony with its "brother" bird...

People need to understand that when you take an animal from the wild, or take on the responsibility of caring for an animal. You take on the role that of Caretaker and in a way, "god". You need to ensure it has all it needs to be happy, healthy.
IF a person cannot do that, or will not do that... they should not keep any thing live but themselves.
Carol

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Originally Posted by Slim

No I would not...even if they were equal in the nutrition department.

Dogs chase Cats, Bears poop in the woods, and Ball Pythons eat Rodents:P
It's the whole circle of life, call of the wild thing.

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Exactly.

Some thoughts that are somewhat related, but mostly off topic. Ever notice how some people get all upset or say "that's so sad" when they see a dead deer on the side of the road, yet say nothing when it is a skunk or squirrel? Or they have no problem with setting up a mouse trap or squashing a spider.

Or what about when you are watching a movie with some violence. Countless people have been shot or died somehow and there was no reaction from the audience. Then all of a sudden a dog dies and the whole theater goes "Awwww."

Or what about people that are against hunting, yet eat meat.

There are animal rights activists, but no insect rights activists. What's up with that? No one is getting all upset about fly swatters being sold in stores or roach traps.

Pfft, why feed a vegan diet when you can feed them the fairy eggs found in enchanted forests? Its nutritional AND logical.

I just wrote a long, long email to this guy on youtube, glazlad10. You probably know him...

He is promoting a vegan dog food. Basically, he believes that food is just a mixture of proteins and amino acids or whatever he said so, if you can replicate the same constitution using plants, then it is better. I know a lot of people has blasted him, but he is an okay guy (presents his case in a respectful, no cussing, no "you're an idiot" manner). I wrote to him because I read in one of the threads here that he thinks snake owners are sexual deviants or something like that... He does have a point that I agreed with - that there are waaaayyy too many feeding videos out there that show no respect for the prey item and is just there for the "shock factor". That's why I loved 8ballpython's feeding instructions video because he emphasized the fact that we don't enjoy the rodent getting killed, but appreciate the fact that it is necessary for the snake's survival...

Anyway, this guy glazlad10 believes that inflicting pain is unethical (yep, an irrational bleeding heart, as most of them are, sigh). He says that plants do not have pain receptors and are therefore designed for eating. I countered his "unethical" claim by telling him that eagles eat snakes, a hognose snake eats frogs, frogs eat mosquitoes, a mosquito drinks off the blood of a buffalo... and on and on. It is how they were "designed". It's called the cycle of life and the natural design of nature cannot be regarded as unethical. Only humans have the capacity for reason and can therefore have a choice to do unethical behavior. So you can't make the claim that a snake eating a rodent is unethical or even a canine eating raw steak. I would even go so far as to say converting naturally carnivorous animals to a herbivore diet is unnecessarily cruel to both the plant and the animals. Because, those plants were never designed to support that part of the animal kingdom and making them do so will wipe them out of their natural existence and having the predator/prey relationship will upset the balance of nature. So, then he countered that some animals should not be kept as pets... and I told him, yep, I wouldn't want a Polar Bear for a pet, no. And that, just because they're pets, doesn't make them herbivores... But my ball python is one great pet since I can provide him with an environment as close to his natural habitat as I can make it and I use him to show to everybody I come in contact with that they are just as precious as Polar Bears and deserve the same respect and protection and that hopefully, these people can stop themselves from going on a killing rampage everytime they see a snake in their backyard...

I can go on and on about this stuff...

I don't have any problem with people being vegan. It's not for me, I'll eat their share of the meat. However, when they try to push those beliefs on their pets, that's where I draw the line. If you don't want a meat eating pet, get a rabbit.

I feed all my snakes crunchy granola bars.








Heck yeah I'd feed them a vegan diet but where are you going to find a vegan willing to let themselves be cut up and eaten by snakes?

Yeah....my snakes are on a STRICT vegan diet.....I only feed them vegans! :8:

I think the OP was trying to say if we enjoy our snakes eating and constricting another animal, or if we would could do without our snakes eating and constricting another being.

Never.

I would need to have lifetimes of reasearch done showing that the feed does not adversely affect the snake in ANY way.

Speaking realistically BP lives last around 30 years so that doesn't leave me with enough time to embrace too any new relatively untested methods in husbandry.

beacause they can be finiky on rodents anyway that would just lower survival rate

Seeing as I don't eat vegan myself.. well there's no question.

Unless it was 100% proved over 10 generations of snakes that the new diet was obviously better for the snakes and made them live longer, healthier lives... no way.

I feed my BP bean sprouts and tofu

I can see it now. "Honey? Can you go to wallmart and pick up a couple Rat shaped Spam loaves?"

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Yeah....my snakes are on a STRICT vegan diet.....I only feed them vegans! :8:

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:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

nope.....snakes are not, and never will be, vegans, how the heck do these people say the nutrition would be the same? there is no way to replicate real rat meat or real rat organs ;)

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Originally Posted by boachick

nope.....snakes are not, and never will be, vegans, how the heck do these people say the nutrition would be the same? there is no way to replicate real rat meat or real rat organs ;)

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Actually, if you break it down to the most basic components, the names of which I don't even know, but on a chemical level, I'm sure you could make a perfectly healthy slurry of stuff that had no animal protein in it at all.

Infuse rat shaped tofu and abracadabra, you have a healthy vegan food for your snake.

Getting them to eat it is another matter entirely though here as well I have no doubt many would accept the ratfu in lieu of ratpoo.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Actually, if you break it down to the most basic components, the names of which I don't even know, but on a chemical level, I'm sure you could make a perfectly healthy slurry

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Actually, the Vegan types have been arguing this point on forums all over the internet since Al Gore invented the thing.

The best explanation I've seen was from a PhD in molecular chemistry from the University of Florida. She said that even if you take the same numbers of proteins, lipids, and glucose (carbs, both simple and complex) that you still couldn't replicate one diet or another because of the way the components act on each other at the molecular level. Bottom line is that meat proteins act like meat proteins, and plant proteins act like plant proteins, even if they are both made up of amino acids, and never the twain shall meet. Made since to me when I read it.

I would buy it if it was cheaper... but it is vegan so it would be ten times the price, I would probably have to sprout the darn thing at home, add the rat scent, soak it for 9 days, add a bacterial agent, bury it under a tree for a week, and by then the snakes will have just gone out and found their own food...

I'm wondering how many people here are really speaking from any actual experience with a vegan/vegetarian diet? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say not that many. I've been vegetarian for 8 years and mostly-vegan (living with a vegan wife) for 3 years of that time.

It's not the diet for everyone admittedly, but we did fine on it. We switched back to eating dairy and eggs when my wife became pregnant, and we decided that it was far, far easier to ensure a completely rounded diet for my daughter if we included these products. The combination of fat and protein in these products are hard to match with vegan foods that kids will actually eat!

The point is that we, and all the vegetarian friends we have, accept the fact that although these diets are healthy for adult humans, they may not be healthy for children or animals. Both my snakes eat F/T rodents and I never second guess it, that is what they need to survive, and it's my job as a responsible pet owner to ensure that they are healthy. In the same way, my fish get foods that contain fish meal and or shrimp meal since they contain vital nutrients that they need to be healthy.

So, to answer to original question, would I consider it? Sure, and as ethical vegetarian I'd even prefer it, but only if there was absolutely NO question that it was every bit as healthy for my snakes. Period.

p.s. I promise that I am not a 'preachy' vegetarian. I hate those people. I eat what I want to eat, and you eat what you want to eat. Fine by me.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

I would buy it if it was cheaper... but it is vegan so it would be ten times the price, I would probably have to sprout the darn thing at home, add the rat scent, soak it for 9 days, add a bacterial agent, bury it under a tree for a week, and by then the snakes will have just gone out and found their own food...

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That may have been the way it was some time ago, but vegan eating is pretty easy these days.

I can walk into a local organic/hippy foods store and walk out with a five course meal that I just have to toss in the oven for 15 minutes.

If pigs could fly, would you keep them in bird cages? This thread is ridiculous.

KIY... I know, I was just being silly.

I find the vegan option for snake threads to be silly in the extreme. For no other reason than they are always popping up and they stem more on a social conscious level than a practical one.

Snakes eat rats, but we can eat vegan if we so choose.

I find the whole conceptualization to be cyclical and not terribly productive.

I am not a person who has any issues with veganism, etc. I was vegetarian for 8 years, and full on vegan for 3 of those.

Bruce

even if they could put all the vitamins and proteins and such into a vegan snake sausage type thingy, where would they get all those proteins and such? would they have to extract them from animals (im assuming they wouldnt) or would they somehow make them in some lab or something? if so, those methods just seem so fake to me, its just not natural, IMO :( snakes just naturally see rats and stuff as food, they are made to eat whole prey items, im sure they get everything they need that way and are able to live long healthy lives in captivity with a caring keeper.... JMHO :P

DSCLAIMER: I agree this thread is a little silly, and at the risk of hijacking it further, maybe the Mods should move it to Off Topic or split it. Having said that, I just couldn't let this go,

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Originally Posted by TheKingInYellow

as ethical vegetarian I'd even prefer it

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Ethical as opposed to what? If being vegetarian is ethical, it begs the question, what is unethical?

There is a very successful HOT keeper that feeds all his snakes a custom mix of goodies via a special caulking type gun. All are healthy, all have good weight.

Heck there is even snake sausages.......little freeze dried things. LOL

Now....I am not saying this has anything to do with vegan anything....just pointing out that rats in the natural wrapper is not the only way to go.


And no, my snakes eat rodents or fish depending on species.........no vegans or anything else, rodents are high enough.....rofl

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Originally Posted by Slim

Ethical as opposed to what? If being vegetarian is ethical, it begs the question, what is unethical?

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Don't read too much into that word. Basically, there are different kinds of vegetarians: those that can't eat meat due to food allergies/incompatibilities, those that don't like the taste, and those that choose not to eat meat due to their own choice. An 'ethical' vegetarian chooses not to eat meat for no other reason than their own conscience, morals and ethics.

Got ya'. I guess I choose to eat meat because it taste pretty darn good.

Had a vegetarian on my team in Afghanistan last year...turns out, they actually make vegetarian MRE's.

I've actually heard that they tasted better than the regular MREs as well, but I can't say I've ever had them.

Even IF, I would not use a vegan diet on whatever carnivore pet. The reason for this is, except from the fact that I think its is sick to even think about doing something like this, that i have a naturally grown, unprocessed and healthy product available (mouse or rat) and the alternative would be a highly processed piece of crap from the labs of the nutrional scientists (modern Frankensteins).
I have been vegetarian for around 8 years, but i always avoided all this "fake meat" and I would not want my snakes to eat that stuff.

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Originally Posted by TheKingInYellow

I'm wondering how many people here are really speaking from any actual experience with a vegan/vegetarian diet? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say not that many. I've been vegetarian for 8 years and mostly-vegan (living with a vegan wife) for 3 years of that time.

It's not the diet for everyone admittedly, but we did fine on it. We switched back to eating dairy and eggs when my wife became pregnant, and we decided that it was far, far easier to ensure a completely rounded diet for my daughter if we included these products. The combination of fat and protein in these products are hard to match with vegan foods that kids will actually eat!

The point is that we, and all the vegetarian friends we have, accept the fact that although these diets are healthy for adult humans, they may not be healthy for children or animals. Both my snakes eat F/T rodents and I never second guess it, that is what they need to survive, and it's my job as a responsible pet owner to ensure that they are healthy. In the same way, my fish get foods that contain fish meal and or shrimp meal since they contain vital nutrients that they need to be healthy.

So, to answer to original question, would I consider it? Sure, and as ethical vegetarian I'd even prefer it, but only if there was absolutely NO question that it was every bit as healthy for my snakes. Period.

p.s. I promise that I am not a 'preachy' vegetarian. I hate those people. I eat what I want to eat, and you eat what you want to eat. Fine by me.

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I am. And no, it is not ethical for the snake. Snakes are carnivores, humans are omnivores. We can survive off of eating only non-meat sources. Snakes can NOT.
It is almost impossible to assume that any snake would be healthy and thriving on a diet that was made from plant matter. Even though it has the same nutrients, it does not come in the same package. Snakes have a different type of digestive system that is meant to only digest meat. If you put plants in that system, they will not digest and it will not receive any of those 'identical nutrients' that you see in it.
The animal will suffer of malnutrition before you could even realize it. It would start to die because it would not get as much energy in return for the huge amount of energy it takes for a snake to digest food in general.

Humans have taken animals as pets for our enjoyment. If you support PETA, you should not have pets, or a seeing eye dog if your blind. We have already put animals under our care when it was unrequited, the least we could do is feed them their natural source.

Also, I'm a vegetarian because of the way the animals are treated before they die. I don't believe death is a negative thing at all. If I know my mice are going peacefully in a CO2 chamber, then why would I be against that for the needs of my snakes?

I'm glad that you see that it may not be healthy, but I'm just trying to show, how it probably could never work. :]

These threads should just be closed. Vegan diets do not, and will never, work for bp's. End of story. :snake:

Now who wants a nice spinach smoothie? ;)

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Originally Posted by icygirl

who wants a nice spinach smoothie? ;)

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Now you`re just vegan-baiting. :P

B

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Originally Posted by Bruce Whitehead

Now you`re just vegan-baiting

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That quote is just begging for a joke, but since it's a family Forum........

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Originally Posted by icygirl

these threads should just be closed. Vegan diets do not, and will never, work for bp's. End of story. :snake:

Now who wants a nice spinach smoothie? ;)

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om nom nom.

Just got a message from Dr.del because i have used an censored term in my recent post and I want to say sorry, honestly...:please:
But this theme just makes me angry!
Of course it is wrong and inhumane how cattle is raised, transported and slaughtered for human consumption today (I say this, even though I ate just a couple of burgers...:D)
But as concious snake keepers we have the choice to provide our little darlings with proper and "lovefull" raised rodents, these little creatures deserve to be well treated and handled till they meet their master, or in other terms our snakes and that is the point. If someone is not willing or able to feed living or prekilled rodents to a snake, he or she should not own one. To feed f/t or even worse snake sausages, just because someone thinks it is more humane, is like eating a steak from the freezer and expecting it has grown there and never has been a cow.

...Wow, never expected to get so many people riled up!

I must apologize! This was spawned from a random thought I had about people owning snakes only because they liked watching them eat. I didn't mean to stir up so much!

Warning, long and little off topic!
...I just read my post and again, and got the feeling it sounds like I am against feeding f/t, but that was not what I wanted to say.
F/t is a practical and for some people the only way to feed their snakes, cause they are not able to get their hands on living food all the time, I am also using f/t pinkies for my corn until my mice start breeding and petshops dont sell living pinkies in my place.
I am just against that hypocritical argumentation of some people (not here in this forum), who are saying it would be cruel and wrong to feed live because of ethical reasons, and then using f/t for their snakes. The mice in the freezer surely had no suicidal tendencies or died of old age before they were frozen, they had to be killed too and so I see no difference, from an ethical point of view.
I will use living mice, wich I kept for some time and fed with good food to improve their nutrional value, as long as I see my Ball kills and eats them quick and without problems. When i switch him to rats i will have to see, if it turns out to be too dangerous for him I will try prekilled..... sorry for the long post but I just went through an similar discussion in an german forum and still had some anger in me. (Okay, it was a fancy mouse lover forum and I asked how to breed feeder mice...:D I am convinced they would use vegan snake food...:rolleye2:)
But back to topic: I made that point earlier, but again, I would never even consider using an artifically produced, highly processed and probably less valueable piece of food, instead of the naturally grown, healthy and nutrionally perfect balanced alternative. Neither for me, nor for my snakes.
Thanx for reading...:taz:

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Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

I am. And no, it is not ethical for the snake. Snakes are carnivores, humans are omnivores. We can survive off of eating only non-meat sources. Snakes can NOT.

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I agree completely, but I was answering following the assumption that this 'vegan option' was somehow magically perfectly able to allow your snakes to survive and thrive.

In reality, no, I would never trust and off-the-shelf vegan snake food.

sure i would feed my snakes every vegan i can catch and carry home :rolleye2: