Am I cruel for doing this???

I put two of my males - Gambit and Khaoz together on the floor to see them "battle". I've never seen this type of BP behavior, and with my latest little "photo fiasco" of them, pooping on me....I thought I might just see what they'd do if I put them together.....It became clear after even a few minutes that one clearly was the "winner". It was a fascinating thing to see! But now that I saw it, I'll likely not do it again, because even though Gambit was the winner, he was nervous and agitated for the rest of the day.

Yes. That's cruel. It's no different than putting two dogs into a pit to fight.

really? pits destroy each other, snakes don't

no, I don't think it's cruel. Some breeders do it to induce breeding behavior.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

I put two of my males - Gambit and Khaoz together on the floor to see them "battle". I've never seen this type of BP behavior, and with my latest little "photo fiasco" of them, pooping on me....I thought I might just see what they'd do if I put them together.....It became clear after even a few minutes that one clearly was the "winner". It was a fascinating thing to see! But now that I saw it, I'll likely not do it again, because even though Gambit was the winner, he was nervous and agitated for the rest of the day.

---

Lets put it this way, if I told you what i thought of you for doing this I would get kicked out.........:colbert:

I don't think it's cruel per se but I def wouldn't condone it. I can't imagine it doing any good for the owner or the snakes. I don't think it'd do any real harm in the long run but, as you noticed, it would be quite stressful!

How is that cruel? I mean it's probably not a good thing for the snakes, I'm sure it does stress them out some but I don't see it being cruel or anything like a freakin dog fight!

Not sure I would call it cruel. But I would call it thoughtless.

Males are put together for combat to induce breeding. That is instrumentive and has a goal. No, the animals are not going to be at risk as a result (as least not that I know of).

A bit of pushing and shoving not such a big deal. I do that everyday on the metro. I poster, I stand my ground, I defend my space. Big deal.

You did it just to see... I would call that a bit reckless IMHO.

As for the comparison to pit fighting. That sort of parallel lacks merit and is just a bit too hysterical.

Bruce

I don't see how this is "cruel" in any way. Unless there's something about ball-python combat that I'm not aware of. It's not like dogs fighting and tearing each other apart. The snakes don't injure each other, so far as I know. If they do, then please explain and I'll alter my opinion.

I think folks are making a bit of an assumption that such combat is "stressful" in a detrimental way for the snakes. How do you know the snake was "stressed" after the fight? Maybe it was jazzed up...lookin' for a lady..."feeling good" about having done something it would do in nature but rarely gets to do in captivity.

While I completely understand and encourage creating as stress-free an environment as possible because of the circumstances of captivity....I also don't feel that occassional moments of "stress" are bad for the animals....in fact, I think it would be good for them. Constant stress of having to live with another male that wants to battle....BAD...without a doubt. But having a chance to interact and "battle" on rare occasions....I just can't see that as a bad thing, so long as there is no significant risk of injuries. How do we know such moments, carefully dolled out and supervised, are not a beneficial environmental enhancement? :confuzd:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

I don't see how this is "cruel" in any way. Unless there's something about ball-python combat that I'm not aware of. It's not like dogs fighting and tearing each other apart. The snakes don't injure each other, so far as I know. If they do, then please explain and I'll alter my opinion.

I think folks are making a bit of an assumption that such combat is "stressful" in a detrimental way for the snakes. How do you know the snake was "stressed" after the fight? Maybe it was jazzed up...lookin' for a lady..."feeling good" about having done something it would do in nature but rarely gets to do in captivity.

While I completely understand and encourage creating as stress-free an environment as possible because of the circumstances of captivity....I also don't feel that occassional moments of "stress" are bad for the animals....in fact, I think it would be good for them. Constant stress of having to live with another male that wants to battle....BAD...without a doubt. But having a chance to interact and "battle" on rare occasions....I just can't see that as a bad thing, so long as there is no significant risk of injuries. How do we know such moments, carefully dolled out and supervised, are not a beneficial environmental enhancement? :confuzd:

---

Agreed.

I'd call it cruel, because you did it just to enjoy the spectacle. Sparring males to induce breeding behavior has a purpose, while just doing it to watch does not.
I don't think it's harmed the snakes though. A bit of sparring, then seperating them is not in any way comparable to the damage done in a pit dog fight. However, I think the comparison might be made for enjoying the pit fighting and enjoying two snakes fighting. What's enjoyable about two animals battling each other?
All in all, probably no harm done, but not something I would condone at all.
All above is just my opinion, only my opinion, based only on my own ideals and limited brain cell power. Some settling may have occured in transit, however contents should be measured by weight, not by volumn.

I think it's cruel because it was done for fun. Watching two of your pets fight, no matter how "harmless" it may be, is just not right. It wasn't done for breeding purposes, it was done out of curiousity.

My new kitten is scared to death of the vacuum. Would it physically hurt him if I chased him around the house with it? No. But it's still cruel.

Heeey, now theres an idea to get my bee to breed....he'd probably lose though...

No where does the original poster mention they did this for fun. For all we know they could want some first hand observations on male combat in bps. I don't think its wrong to want to witness something about our snake's behaviors.

It has a purpose when it comes to breeding but I don't think its the only valid reason to want to see it first hand. To view, learn, respect and gain a greater knowledge of these animals is not a crime in my book.

If they were to make a routine of doing this just for kicks and giving their buddies a show, then I would have a problem with it.

it's not cruel at all.

You put them in a situation that, although perhaps stressful, caused them no harm - which is, to some extent, quite similar to handling them.

Enjoying watching nature take its course is normal. Humans are naturally curious and fascinated by the world around them - have you ever seen a chimp notice something unusual in his environment? He can't stop looking at it until he feels he understands it. There's nothing wrong with being entertained by this process.

I don't know why people think that these snakes have to live in as mundane an environment as we can possibly make for them or else they're being abused, or why people should need to feel ashamed for being fascinated by their natural behaviors.

No harm, no foul.

I wouldn't battle them EVERY DAY, or even every week or month, but every once in a while for their stimulation and your personal enjoyment is not a big deal if you're keeping an eye on things and making sure it's not getting out of hand. Obviously, if they naturally separate and go their own ways, don't keep forcing them back together or anything like that.

I dont believe you are cruel for doing this. I see absolutely no harm in what you did. You were curious and you learned from the experience, the animals where not harmed and all is fine now.

As for comparing this to a dog fight, ah... no that is way to far of a stretch. To be nice lets just call it apples and oranges.:rolleyes:

When this copperhead study first came out I swear I read that the looser males didn't breed until the next year but all I'm finding now is "suppression of sexual behavior" for 7 days and increased stress hormones for an hour:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3079119

At any rate, I'd worry about letting a male combat that he might loose and the impact on the male ego might affect his breeding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiniJ83

I think it's cruel because it was done for fun. Watching two of your pets fight, no matter how "harmless" it may be, is just not right. It wasn't done for breeding purposes, it was done out of curiousity.

---

Hey, I could toss boxing & cage fighting are cruel too. That's not 'harmless' and people sure seem to enjoy it. Those fighters have parents and they most likely watch. They'd probably be cheering for their kid when winning then in the 'omg' phase when they're losing. What purpose does that serve?

Now I know that's a bit off topic but oh well.

Ball pythons, I have never heard of an animal being hurt while combating.

Retics, I've heard it plenty. Retic males will kill each other. No one combats them because of it, but stuff happens Heard of them escaping out of their cage and opening another males cage and kill each other end up at the vet for many stitches.

What did they mean by fighting?
Surely they just meant ritual combat/wrestling, which is what they do in the wild, perfectly natural, and sometimes done to encourage one male to mate.

If the one snake was biting the other, then sure stop it, but if they were just wrestling, then what was all the fuss about?
Seriously?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakemanjayd

What did they mean by fighting?
Surely they just meant ritual combat/wrestling, which is what they do in the wild, perfectly natural, and sometimes done to encourage one male to mate.

---

More than likely that is what they meant.

If you play that whole "in the wild" card, people will tell you "they're not in the wild!".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

When this copperhead study first came out I swear I read that the looser males didn't breed until the next year but all I'm finding now is "suppression of sexual behavior" for 7 days and increased stress hormones for an hour:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3079119

At any rate, I'd worry about letting a male combat that he might loose and the impact on the male ego might affect his breeding.

---

Randy, the Barkers address this in their book, that they don't battle their males, because they've found that all too often, the loser will not breed after that. I remember it being a significant amount of time, but I'd have to go back and look it up, and I'm headed out the door to work right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RKO

More than likely that is what they meant.

If you play that whole "in the wild" card, people will tell you "they're not in the wild!".

---

Alright, I get that, but it's not like you are subjecting them to unusual or cruel behavior. It does happen in the wild, and it's natural and the snakes don't get hurt.
I think people have a strange idea of what cruelty is these days.
They personify everything too far...
Don't get me wrong, I love my animals too, but there is a line.

As for them not breeding for a while after that, that is a good practical reason for you not to do it as a breeder, if you intend to breed both of them.
But not an ethical reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RandyRemington

When this copperhead study first came out I swear I read that the looser males didn't breed until the next year but all I'm finding now is "suppression of sexual behavior" for 7 days and increased stress hormones for an hour:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3079119

At any rate, I'd worry about letting a male combat that he might loose and the impact on the male ego might affect his breeding.

---

Actually, in BPs, the loser will be just as likely to breed after combat as the winner would be. I put four males in accidentally the other day (in 2 different tubs, of course. Thought two were females) & the losers went straight into (properly sexed)females' tubs & locked up that same night.

I will add that I will not put two males together on purpose. I did feel really bad because the 'winners' are two 'Normals' which I am not going to breed now, and they looked like they were really anxious after the combat.

I have never seen two males "fight". Does anyone have video of this? I would really like to see it.

YouTube - Ball Python Combat

Thanks, Thats no pit bull fight. I don't see anything wrong with that. I wanted to see it once, and now i am good. I probably will never use it as a breeding starter, but it is neat. I like to see what they do in the wild.

I did this for a few min with a pastel and normal....pastel lost...I put him with a female and within 15 min they were locked and it lasted for 2 days straight.

I did it again and pastel lost...put him with another normal...and locked within 30 minutes for 1 day.

I plan on doing this again with some other males before I pair them up. It seems to stimulate breeding and it definitely works. It happens in the wild and it's contained and safer (not that I have ever heard of anything happening) while you are right there. I don't see anything fun about it but if it makes breeding occur that much faster then I'm all for it and I don't see anything wrong with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiniJ83

Yes. That's cruel. It's no different than putting two dogs into a pit to fight.

---

Just so the rest of you are thinking the same way as I am...

He was not referring to PIT BULLS fighting. He said putting dogs into a pit, as in a fighting ring.




Sorry, I'm a pit bull lover and don't like the stereotypes thing.......

You know people, they're really not made of delicate crystal, I see nothing wrong with combating your males to help induce breeding, or even just out of curiosity. It is a pretty interesting behavior to observe. There are SOME species of snakes that can get rather violent with each other and cut each other up pretty good (I believe that GTP's are known to do this) But I've never heard of it being a problem with ball pythons. I've successfully used this a few times in the past myself to get reluctant breeders jump started and was amazed by how well it worked, I've usually found that even the loser was a good breeder afterward.

Of course if you want to have a really good time, just invite all of your dentally challenged erythematous naped buddies over and place wagers on the outcome... And let the good times roll........ :D

To clarify, I didn't do it for personal enjoyment. And it's NOTHING like dog fighting. With dogs they're trained to kill, and much blood is spent, lives sopmetimes lost.I didn't just "throw them together to duke it out". I've never seen the behavior, and I wanted to witness it myself.It was just for a few minutes. Besides, they didn't hurt each other, and why is it cruel to let them experience something they'd do in nature?? Besides, I have a female waiting in the wings for one of them. ;)

P.S. - thank you Jo! Now I don't feel like such a terrible person!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RKO

Just so the rest of you are thinking the same way as I am...

He was not referring to PIT BULLS fighting. He said putting dogs into a pit, as in a fighting ring.




Sorry, I'm a pit bull lover and don't like the stereotypes thing.......

---

I noticed that and meant to correct myself. I realize it's not pit bulls per se, i just glanced over "pit" and began my response. You're right ;)

To do it once for education - ok

To do it for entertainment -- stupid

To do it to help illicit breeding -- eeeh

Well, some will think I am wrong, some won't. I put a male pastel with a light colored normal around 4:15pm....no lock as of 7:45pm. Of course, you can't rush breeding and it takes time to get successful locks etc.. Anyway, I just wanted to test the method I have been using...

I put the male with a huge normal male...he lost. I put him with the same light colored normal girl who I know is itching for a man to come her way...and it's 8:19pm right now....they have been locked since 7:58pm. I guess there is a method to the madness.

I'm going to keep track and see what happens with putting 2 males together and not putting them together before pairing them up. I get locks both ways...but when the males wrestle...it happens fairly quick...but I'm not rushing anything...just my method. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiniJ83

My new kitten is scared to death of the vacuum. Would it physically hurt him if I chased him around the house with it? No. But it's still cruel.

---

My dog likes the vacuum and I don't like cats....

I think it would be hilariousness to chase the cat with the vacuum but I would not do it because it is cruel to the animal.

No I don't think you are cruel for it as long as it was supervised. From what you say you did it responsibly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tosha_Mc

T

To do it to help illicit breeding -- eeeh

---

Well, illicit breeding sounds kind of dicey. But to elicit breeding it works pretty well........

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

Well, illicit breeding sounds kind of dicey. But to elicit breeding it works pretty well........

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

---

:gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MiniJ83

My new kitten is scared to death of the vacuum. Would it physically hurt him if I chased him around the house with it? No. But it's still cruel.

---

Woops, I have chased the dogs around. :rolleyes:

That was actually kinda cool... I wouldn't do it just to see it but that video was very interesting. I really dislike how people tend to look at these snakes as delicate silk. Ball pythons are very hardy animals and I see no reason why this wouldn't be considered acceptable as long as it's done responsibly and not for entertainment.

I see nothing wrong with it. I've tested it out before to see "what would happen" just like you did. I've also used it to throwing my male breeders in the past into breeding mode. Did it work? Yup. I've also know a lot of breeders who also put males together to start up breeding. I see nothing wrong with it and to put it out there with pit bull fighting is just ridiculous. If you want to see pit bull fighting then I'll invite ya over to my neighborhood where it's a major problem around here and you can then see first hand how ball python battling and pit bull fighting are worlds away in difference.

In my opinion (I am late as usual!) you were not cruel; I would classify you as "curious." But as a breeding tactic, it is bit useless if they are kept together and allowed to "fight" to the point of physical contact.

I have put two males together while the female is in the cage and let them stay long enough to get their "dander" up. Beyond that, it is a waste of time and if they try and dominate each other with their hempes, I remember reading that they can damage each other (sorry don't remember the source).

i think it all rests on the purpose to begin with. If it was done for inducing breeding than ok go ahead, but if it was done just for fun than i don't see the point. i know the human nature is curious to see something new. since they are just pushing each other around and not really hurting each other than no harm done and lesson learned. comparing it to pit fighting on the other hand is just ridiculous. someone with common sense (and i stress that) would know what would happen.....teeth on flesh. but every one is entitled to an opinion. that what this country and forum is all about.:)