boas and ibd

I love boas, but i currently have a growing collection of carpets growing. i would love to have projects with brb, or even just a bcc or bci ( dont know the difference so please explain) to raise and have the joy of keeping. the only thing that really makes my stomache get in knots is thinking of my carpets getting ibd...i would be devastated.
is it only certain kinds of boas, or do they all have the potential of carrying it without showing signs? i've heard they can not show symptoms for a year or more, is that true?

sorry there is a lot of questions in that, i just worry a lot, hate to think of anything bad happening.

thanks for any replies

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Originally Posted by JTR

I love boas, but i currently have a growing collection of carpets growing. i would love to have projects with brb, or even just a bcc or bci ( dont know the difference so please explain) to raise and have the joy of keeping. the only thing that really makes my stomache get in knots is thinking of my carpets getting ibd...i would be devastated.
is it only certain kinds of boas, or do they all have the potential of carrying it without showing signs? i've heard they can not show symptoms for a year or more, is that true?

sorry there is a lot of questions in that, i just worry a lot, hate to think of anything bad happening.

thanks for any replies

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BCC and BCI - also Eunectes. Some show signs, some do not. I have talked to vets who have treated the disease extensively say that they've seen boas go asymptomatic for 4 years or more.

Literature from reliable sources states are all over the map regarding infection rates. What I would be concerned about is this: many people lose their boids to RI, septicemia and other chronic infections that people have been programmed to not associated with IBD. Therefore many of the animals potentially carrying and succumbing to the disease are never positively diagnosed.

Additionally, animals that do die and display "classic" neurological symptoms are sometimes assumed to have IBD when they don't. The fact is that for many hobbyists, doing a necropsy to positively identify the disease is financially onerous.

After talking to vets and other hobbyists who have lost animals to this disease, my opinion (and it's my opinion only) is that it's more prevalent than many people think. The fact that boas can go asymptomatic for so long is troubling, the fact that many animals have died from it without it being diagnosed is disturbing and the fact that most hobbyists have been conditioned to only look for the neurological symptoms insures that it will be many more years before we have a handle on how severe the situation is.

In the meantime, I am done adding boas to my collection as a six month or one year quarantine, according to some vets and researchers, may not suffice. Any pythons or colubrids that I add are quarantined for 6 months, as again, there are credible and verifiable reports of pythons hanging in for longer than the "few weeks" reported on many forums.

I am too attached to my animals to risk their health over adding one more snake to the collection. Until there is reliable and accurate testing, effective treatment or affordable detection methods I'll wait to get that Caulker Cay boa I want so bad.

thanks...the truth sucks sometimes, but there is no sense in putting what you already love in danger

I've got boas and ball pythons. I keep them in different rooms of the house and have separate feeding utensils for each group.
When I want to handle the snakes, I handle the balls first and then the boas.
When it's feeding day, I feed the balls first and then the boas.
I don't really believe that this is a very big deal unless you house them together, do not implement a long qt time, obtain your boas from an unreliable source, and/or have sloppy husbandry skills.
Just my two cents!!

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Originally Posted by starmom

I've got boas and ball pythons. I keep them in different rooms of the house and have separate feeding utensils for each group.
When I want to handle the snakes, I handle the balls first and then the boas.
When it's feeding day, I feed the balls first and then the boas.
I don't really believe that this is a very big deal unless you house them together, do not implement a long qt time, obtain your boas from an unreliable source, and/or have sloppy husbandry skills.
Just my two cents!!

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Be very careful on what you recommend.

Theories on transmission include that it may be airborne.

Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:


Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms

50% of those tested?

Recommending a quarantine period on a disease that many never manifest any symptoms (in the case of boas) is pointless. While the animal is quietly carrying the disease without any outward signs, it can be infecting other animals.

Several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections.

Most people have gotten incorrect information about IBD from unreliable or inaccurate sources. I would suggest that anyone interested in what is currently known about the disease research Dr. Jacobson's work at UF.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Be very careful on what you recommend.

Theories on transmission include that it may be airborne.

Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:


Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms

50% of those tested?

Recommending a quarantine period on a disease that many never manifest any symptoms (in the case of boas) is pointless. While the animal is quietly carrying the disease without any outward signs, it can be infecting other animals.

Several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections.

Most people have gotten incorrect information about IBD from unreliable or inaccurate sources. I would suggest that anyone interested in what is currently known about the disease research Dr. Jacobson's work at UF.

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"Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection..." Wow, that's harsh.

I appreciate your passion for the welfare of snakes of different species being kept housed in one building.

I have learned from this forum, and several others, that ball pythons die from IBD very quickly after exposure to the virus. I feel okay that by practicing a long QT period and enacting very good husbandry skills, tragedy can be avoided.

I would really like to talk to the "...several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections..." to ascertain further information regarding this issue.

As for information coming out of the UofF, I do try to stay on top of it. Since I am in graduate school, I have access to several databases that permit an in-depth search and retrieval of research papers. I believe that perhaps I am not one of your "most people" who are receiving incorrect and/or unreliable information.

Again, your passion is right on and appreciated. However, I take issue with your vast generalizations, globalizations, and accusations.

Just buy from a reptuable breeder.

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Originally Posted by starmom

"Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection..." Wow, that's harsh.

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It's not directed at you, it's directed at the OP or anyone else who is weighing the odds of adding to their collection vs. the risk of IBD. Let's leave it at that and let's not make this a personal issue between the two of us.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I have learned from this forum, and several others, that ball pythons die from IBD very quickly after exposure to the virus. I feel okay that by practicing a long QT period and enacting very good husbandry skills, tragedy can be avoided.

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Great. Some people have documented p.regius hanging on for much longer after being positively diagnosed with the disease. Again, snakes don't last long after the onset of neurological symptoms. The timeline between death and the onset of less obvious symptoms is often times not as quick.

Not to beat a dead horse but why even recommend a quarantine period when the disease can be asymptomatic for years in boas? Let's agree perhaps that with pythons species, a quarantine is probably effective.........for boas - probably not.

As far as husbandry skills go; since the exact transmission method is in doubt - what husbandry skills are effective? Collections without mites have been wiped out. Collections where the owners have used sanitizing agents have been decimated. While I agree that practicing good hygeine, cleaning routines and parasite maintenance is critical in eliminating pathogens from a collection, what benefit do they have if IBD can be transmitted via the air?

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Originally Posted by starmom

I would really like to talk to the "...several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections..." to ascertain further information regarding this issue.

As for information coming out of the UofF, I do try to stay on top of it. Since I am in graduate school, I have access to several databases that permit an in-depth search and retrieval of research papers. I believe that perhaps I am not one of your "most people" who are receiving incorrect and/or unreliable information.

Again, your passion is right on and appreciated. However, I take issue with your vast generalizations, globalizations, and accusations.

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Nowhere did I imply that you were. If I did - my sincere apologies. In terms of generalizations and accusations - read into it what you will. Facts are facts - all of the transmission routes are still to be confirmed...............boas can be asymptomatic for years.......................people aren't screening their animals...........reliable and cost effective screening methods aren't really available for live animals..............and the symptoms can be subtle and wide ranging. If those facts are general and too global - so be it. If you think I'm accusing you of anything, well, that was not my intent.

I made the comment that you should be careful as to what you recommend, and I still think you should be careful on what you recommend - especially when it comes to adding boas to a python collection.

The OP asked a question. I gave him as thorough an answer as I possibly could. You are, of course, free to disagree. However, if you think you are being singled out or attacked - you're not.

Starmom, I am glad that you have sucessfully kept boas and pythons without problems. Using care as you do goes a long way. IBD is not fully understood as far as all the means of transmission go, and airborn transmission has been discussed in research as a possible cause, as has ability of boas to be carriers showing no signs. Since you have acess to data bases as I myself do at the local university perhaps you could do some research and help educate us all. Thanks for your input. I am happy you have healthy snakes and practice good husbandry.

Here is one journal article I found and an excerpt:

"Because
boas may be asymptomatic carriers, some authors advise that
pythons should not be kept together with boas, or even in the
same collection (Bennett 1996, Keeble 2004)." https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

The references for this article will provide anyone interested with acess to journal databases a lot of peer reviewed journal articles for education.

I was not able to get the edit completely finished and wanted to add:

Most of the bad information is coming from other vets. I can provide links to sites where vets other than Jacobson are stating things about the disease that are just plain wrong. Kaplan is a perfect example....

This information makes it to forums where it is repeated and spread.

Let me relate my experience with IBD:

One of my dwarf boas went through a recent period of anorexia. I have had this animal for almost 5 years. After running blood tests, x-rays, etc. no abnormalities could be found. He was losing quite a bit of weight and had gone from 1200 grams to 900 grams in a short period of time.

The blood panel was tested for IBD - and came back negative. However, after consultation with the vet, it was decided that a liver biopsy may provide a better shot at discovering an IBD infection.

The liver biopsy came back negative. In the meantime, the snake began showing signs of septicemia.

After consulting with other vets, it was determined that even a negative liver biopsy can be inconclusive for ruling out IBD - as perhaps the inclusion cells (if infected) may be in the brain, or another organ. The snake was put on flagyl for the septicemia with the hopes of also stimulating his appetite.

In the meantime, he was also put in the "isolation ward" apart from the rest of my animals - where he remains to this day. As this was occuring, both my male ball python, one of my male womas and all of my male antaresia went on hunger strikes. All of my colubrids were still eating fine.

At this point, my fear was that it was undiagnosed IBD and had spread to my collection. Fortunately, the males ate again once out of sensory range of the females.

Per consultation with my vet and a local university, all of my boas are to remain in quarantine until we can see whether or not these symptoms progress. We are also keeping constant watch on the pythons for signs of subclinical infections.

I walked into this situation thinking that since I bleached and chloro'd everything and practiced proper quarantine procedures that IBD was not a concern for me. I have so far learned otherwise. I learned that even though my boa has gone 5 years with no symptoms he could be a carrier. I learned that despite a biopsy and two blood panels - he still can't be deemed clean. I also learned that my pythons are probably okay, but if infected that they don't necessarily die quickly as I had been led to believe.

I have spent over a grand in vet bills. While that is a small price to pay compared to those who have lost their beloved animals, a small nagging part of me is worried that we're not out of the woods yet. I've got several vets involved who are still worried that it's IBD - and it makes me sick to my stomach to contemplate having to put down my beloved pets.

So when I caution people to think long and hard before adding to their boid collection and to read all of the research available, I do it not to scare - but to hopefully shed some light on the potential consequences of not being fully informed.

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Originally Posted by ohyeahnow

Starmom, I am glad that you have sucessfully kept boas and pythons without problems. Using care as you do goes a long way. IBD is not fully understood as far as all the means of transmission go, and airborn transmission has been discussed in research as a possible cause, as has ability of boas to be carriers showing no signs. Since you have acess to data bases as I myself do at the local university perhaps you could do some research and help educate us all. Thanks for your input. I am happy you have healthy snakes and practice good husbandry.

Here is one journal article I found and an excerpt:

"Because
boas may be asymptomatic carriers, some authors advise that
pythons should not be kept together with boas, or even in the
same collection (Bennett 1996, Keeble 2004)." https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

The references for this article will provide anyone interested with acess to journal databases a lot of peer reviewed journal articles for education.

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Excellent link - greater than 33% of boas examined post-mortem.......I thought the Merck manual number may have been too high, but 33% is not much of an improvement........

skiploder, sorry to hear about your encounter, I hope everything works out for you. It seems that you know a lot about this condition and I appreciate your input. I have read a few articles, but saved this one because it mentioned the possibility of spread outside of boas and pythons. Having a California King and three corn snakes, I found this article interesting. About twenty years ago I owned a boa and two pythons. While I would love another boa, I will wait untill more is understood about this disease. Hoping a cure and transmission methods can be determined one day for sure.

skiploader: I now understand that your passion on this subject is rooted in your current experiences. I am so very sorry this drama is happening to your snakes.

It is really difficult to post any numbers or statistics given that there has been such a lack of reliable and duplicated research on all things not warm and fuzzy; ie. snakes and etc.

However, what has changed for you? You practiced good husbandry, your other snakes are fine, your boas are in QT but thus far all tests have come back negative.... I must be missing something. I would think that after 5 years, if IBD were airborn (even for just this one time) your other snakes would have gotten the virus.....

I don't know; I really think I'm missing something that you're saying... and so I take responsibility for that.

I still maintain that boas obtained from clean and reliable breeders, strict and long QT periods, and excellent husbandry skills, Ball and boas can be kept within the same building without adverse effects. :)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Not to beat a dead horse but why even recommend a quarantine period when the disease can be asymptomatic for years in boas? Let's agree perhaps that with pythons species, a quarantine is probably effective.........for boas - probably not.

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I'm too afraid to add boas to my BP collection because of fear of IBD, but if I did add a boa, I'd go with something I read online and quarantine a young BP with the Boa. If the BP gets sick and the necropsy shows IBD, euthanize the boa. If they're both healthy in 3 months, you're probably OK.

Harsh, but effective I'd think....

starmom,

I can not speak for skiploader, but I got the impression that skiploader was speaking about the unknown aspects aspects of IBD and one theory than it might be possible for airborne transmission. There are too many variables in how a disease can be transmitted to conclude that if airborne is a possibility the other snakes would be infected. Think of the common cold. In a school or workplace not everyone becomes infected when one person has a cold, yet it can be spread airborne. http://www.avianinfluenza.com.au/fac...ions_nov05.pdf

Until more is known about IBD, it will be hard to drawn definitive conclusions. I do see your points and they are valid. I also agree that boas and pythons can be kept in the same building without adverse effects. I am not sure if such would be the case if a boa was a carrier of IBD. Still learning here, and would love to read any information you have found on the topic. Especially any articles from peer reviewed journals, as these usually have the most recent information and undergo the scrutiny of other experts in the field. I am very happy that you are able to have kept boas and pythons together. I did twenty years ago without problems, but refrain from doing so. I would not want to infect my python or other species of snakes because a boa was an asymptomatic carrier.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Harsh, but effective I'd think....

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agreed. I guess the thought would be if he were to have a boa, it would be better to lose two snakes than an entire collection, due to IBD.

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Originally Posted by starmom

skiploader: I now understand that your passion on this subject is rooted in your current experiences. I am so very sorry this drama is happening to your snakes.

It is really difficult to post any numbers or statistics given that there has been such a lack of reliable and duplicated research on all things not warm and fuzzy; ie. snakes and etc.

However, what has changed for you? You practiced good husbandry, your other snakes are fine, your boas are in QT but thus far all tests have come back negative.... I must be missing something. I would think that after 5 years, if IBD were airborn (even for just this one time) your other snakes would have gotten the virus.....

I don't know; I really think I'm missing something that you're saying... and so I take responsibility for that.

I still maintain that boas obtained from clean and reliable breeders, strict and long QT periods, and excellent husbandry skills, Ball and boas can be kept within the same building without adverse effects. :)

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I have a dedicated herp building. The dwarf boas were moved 6 months ago from a 41 qt rack to 3x2 cages. I sanitized the racks, and moved the smaller pythons into it.

The boas have always been in a separate room (albeit in the same building). The manner of transmission (if it ever turns out that they have IBD) would be either airborne, from aerosolized particles on my clothing, or from the rack.

A biopsy on another organ may be in order. All but two of my male pythons in the rack are now shedding and eating regularly. My options are to wait until another animal shows signs and have it biopsied or wait and see if one of the pythons succumbs.

My dwarves came from a very respected breeder. He and I have talked and at this point I'm not ready to accuse him of anything. As I am finding out, and as reports have now indicated, any where from 33 to 50% of necropsied boas have tested positive for the disease. I just don't like those odds - especially when you take into account that a boa can live with the disease and potentially not show symptoms for a very, very long time.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Be very careful on what you recommend.

Theories on transmission include that it may be airborne.

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Who's theory is this? Every vet I've talked to say that IBD is strictly contagious to fluids passing to and fro other snakes. Which means- Mites, feces, or sex.

Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Boa constrictors and several species of pythons are most commonly affected by IBD. Boas are considered to be the normal host for this retrovirus because so many (up to 50% of those tested) are infected and they can harbor the virus for years without symptoms

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Considered is the keyword there. It's also been considered that IBD originated from Green Burms too. That it was passed to and fro with Boas being housed with Burms back in the day.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

50% of those tested?

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I'm guessing the only reason a test is done is because something is wrong, right? I'm not going to sacrifice a completely healthy snake to be tested. Would you? Thus, 100% of those tested had problems to begin with, showing signs of IBD before death.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Recommending a quarantine period on a disease that many never manifest any symptoms (in the case of boas) is pointless. While the animal is quietly carrying the disease without any outward signs, it can be infecting other animals.

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Only adult boas are known to carry IBD for long periods of time. Baby Boas will die as quickly as Ball Pythons (or other snakes) when introduced to it. This is the main way people learn they have it in their collection. Their baby boas die off.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Several respected people in this hobby have obtained animals from reliable sources, practice immaculate husbandry routines and have still lost large parts of their collections.

Most people have gotten incorrect information about IBD from unreliable or inaccurate sources. I would suggest that anyone interested in what is currently known about the disease research Dr. Jacobson's work at UF.

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Can you name any? I know of 2 people who've had IBD in their collection right off hand. One of those is heresay, the other (BWSmith) was very public about his problems and still has a few babies he had during this whole dilemma and is most probably the most educated person about this topic I know. He had live biopsies done on his whole collection and had to put down the majority of that collection. He still has a few remaining boas that were at his house during his breakout.

I'm also going to go and say that I know many large scale boa breeders who've had collections for longer than I've most likely been alive.
Here's a nice write up on Pete Kahl's site, probably the world's largest boa breeder:

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The snake mite, Ophionyssus natricis, has been found in collections in which IBD has occurred but it is not implicated in all cases of infection.

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You have symptoms in your collection? Where did you acquire the boas? How old were they? What were your quarantine procedures? Did you ever have any breakout of mites in your collection? Why would you use (even if disinfected with 9 tons of bleach) a rack that may have ha a "airborne" infected snake in it at any given time for any other snake?

Merck Manual on aerosolized secretions:

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Aerosolized pathogens inhaled into the lower airways as microparticles include Mycobacterium tuberculosis, Legionella sp, and the influenza virus. M. tuberculosis and the influenza virus are transmitted via aerosolized secretions produced by coughing. Although most cases of pneumococcal pneumonia are acquired by aspiration, in rare cases, especially in an epidemic, the organism is inhaled. Legionella infection is not transmitted from person to person, but rather, is acquired by inhaling infected aerosols from a waterborne source (eg, from air conditioners or shower heads). Waterborne organisms may also be introduced into the lower airways by instrumentation or delivered by small-particle aerosols from a contaminated reservoir nebulizer used with ventilation equipment.

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So, if IBD is "airborne" this is not the same as breathing the same air. They would have to be housed together, like said I said above.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Who's theory is this? Every vet I've talked to say that IBD is strictly contagious to fluids passing to and fro other snakes. Which means- Mites, feces, or sex.

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Both Jacobson and the document Ohyeahnow linked to discuss this theory. I believe BW did too - no?

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Regarding playing Russian roulette with your collection - per the Merck Veterinary Manual:


Considered is the keyword there. It's also been considered that IBD originated from Green Burms too. That it was passed to and fro with Boas being housed with Burms back in the day.

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Jimi - whether it came from burms or boas - dunno and don't care. The difference is that boas can carry it and remain asymptomatic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

I'm guessing the only reason a test is done is because something is wrong, right? I'm not going to sacrifice a completely healthy snake to be tested. Would you? Thus, 100% of those tested had problems to begin with, showing signs of IBD before death.

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Correct - plus the test isn't 100%. You biopsy the liver - no inclusion cells. But what about the gall bladder? The kidney? How far do you go? There is still no 100% reliable method without a necropsy.

A far as the percentages go - I have no idea what symptoms the snakes in the study were showing. We're talking about researchers trying to attempt to pin down an infection rate...........so I would hope that they did not just test animals that were showing neurological disorders......

The stats for the pythons (out of memory) showed low to zero postmortem results..........what can we glean from that compared to the boa data?

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Originally Posted by jimi020cricket

Can you name any? I know of 2 people who've had IBD in their collection right off hand. One of those is heresay, the other (BWSmith) was very public about his problems and still has a few babies he had during this whole dilemma and is most probably the most educated person about this topic I know. He had live biopsies done on his whole collection and had to put down the majority of that collection. He still has a few remaining boas that were at his house during his breakout.

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I don't know that we could consider that he got them from a reputable breeder. I think we can agree on his husbandry skills, however.

Yes, I can name other people.............will I list the names here? Of course not. I can name python and even a colubrid breeder who refuse to get into boas until more is known about the disease.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

I'm also going to go and say that I know many large scale boa breeders who've had collections for longer than I've most likely been alive.
Here's a nice write up on Pete Kahl's site, probably the world's largest boa breeder:


You have symptoms in your collection? Where did you acquire the boas? How old were they? What were your quarantine procedures? Did you ever have any breakout of mites in your collection? Why would you use (even if disinfected with 9 tons of bleach) a rack that may have ha a "airborne" infected snake in it at any given time for any other snake?

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1. I have symptoms in my collection. Whether it's IBD or not remains to be seen............

2. Until I know what I've got - I'm not discussing the name of the breeder. I'd give you the same courtesy.

3. The boas were acquired about 5 years ago they were about 11 months old at the time. My last python was acquired 16 months ago.

4. The symptoms came after the boas were moved.

5. No mites.

Where are you going with this Jimi?

I'm just trying to point out that science is as flawed as it is accurate. I guess I take it to heart when someone says or inadvertently says "I won't buy boas, they have IBD" I take a little offense to it, ok a LOT. Out of the how many of millions of boas are sold a year or the how many of thousands or more people on the internet, how many have actually had a proven outbreak of IBD? That's a pretty low percentage. Probably as low as the pythons that have passed IBD into collections. I'll bet they are pretty close in percentages. How many large scale breeders breed BOTH pythons and boas in the same building? hmmm...quite a few.

You're right on one thing though, no need for name dropping. I do respect that 100%. BUT to say that buying boas is a risk for bringing IBD into your collection is biased and wrong. ANY SNAKE CAN BRING IBD INTO YOUR COLLECTION. Period.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

4. The symptoms came after the boas were moved.

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How long after you acquired the pythons did the symptoms arrive?

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Where are you going with this Jimi?

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I'm slowly getting there... patience mano

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

...BUT to say that buying boas is a risk for bringing IBD into your collection is biased and wrong. ANY SNAKE CAN BRING IBD INTO YOUR COLLECTION. Period.

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Agreed :gj:

I think, skiploder, that you might be biased right now given the drama of what you are experiencing; a drama, I might add, that has not been proved out even after testing...

I sincerely hope that every other test you have performed on your snakes comes back negative as well :)

I think this is another good point too...

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Pythons, although their symptoms may be somewhat less, are just as affected as boas. There are asymptomatic carriers, so the fact that a boa or python within an infected collection does not show signs of the illness should not be taken to mean that it is immune to it. Boas are most associated with being asymptomatic carriers.

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Most associated, not only associated

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Signs of infection in boas include central nervous system disorders such as paralysis, being unable to right itself when turned over, "star-gazing", inability to strike or constrict. Other signs include chronic regurgitation, extreme weight loss, respiratory infections, and dysecdysis due to the inability to control body movements enough to rub off the old skin. The disease is rapidly fatal in young and juvenile boas, typified by rapid onset of flaccid paralysis.

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Weight loss is a factor, but not the only factor. I've also heard of mouth rot being a good first indicator.

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Originally Posted by starmom

Agreed :gj:

I think, skiploder, that you might be biased right now given the drama of what you are experiencing; a drama, I might add, that has not been proved out even after testing...

I sincerely hope that every other test you have performed on your snakes comes back negative as well :)

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I'm extremely biased. I did everything I was supposed to do and I may mean nothing in the end.

Problem is that I have a boa who has no cancer, no blood abnormalities and is exhibiting several indicators of ibd. Everything that goes on in my collection is now under a microscope.

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Originally Posted by starmom

I sincerely hope that every other test you have performed on your snakes comes back negative as well :)

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I do too. Best of luck!

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

How long after you acquired the pythons did the symptoms arrive?


I'm slowly getting there... patience mano

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Last python was added about 14 months before the symptoms occurred.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'm extremely biased.

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It takes a strong man to admit he's biased. I give ya +2 for admitting it.

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

I think this is another good point too...


Most associated, not only associated

Weight loss is a factor, but not the only factor. I've also heard of mouth rot being a good first indicator.

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Jacobson mentions subclinical infections - so did my vet and the local Univ. vets.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Last python was added about 14 months before the symptoms occurred.

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So, a python was added into your collection last? Did you have these same test results done on this python? It's unordinary, but not unheard of, for pythons to by assymptomatic carriers too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

It takes a strong man to admit he's biased. I give ya +2 for admitting it.

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Dude, I have animals in that collection I've owned for 17+ years. I hate to even call them a collection, or a hobby for that matter.............they are much more than that to me.

To be looking at losing them, even after I followed the conventional wisdom for the last five years is beyond frustrating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

So, a python was added into your collection last? Did you have these same test results done on this python? It's unordinary, but not unheard of, for pythons to by assymptomatic carriers too.

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Male woma - again from a top breeder and bought as a baby He is the one who has shown no signs of anorexia or seasonal fasting. He's a clockwork eater, pooper, shedder, etc.

If he was an asymptomatic carrier - I hit some sort of screwed up lottery. A baby, asymptomatic python, from probably the most recognized name in womas with no symptoms........but a carrier.

Real sorry for your dilema Skiploder. I guess what we can learn is to be as safe as possible in our husbandry practices, and hope more is figured out about this disease. It appears that you use good husbandry practices and took precautions. There are a lot of journal articles on this, and the only deffinitive thing I can gather about how it is transmitted, is the fact that no one knows for sure. I sure hope your snakes that are obviously very important to you escape a trategy such as IBD.

Anyone care to email Jacobson on this topic, give it a try.

JacobsonE@vetmed.ufl.edu

Nevermind...I'm only saying that if you follow all the rules of quarantine for EACH AND EVERY snake you bring in, boas or pythons or even cornsnakes, you won't have a problem with 99.9% of the problems that have been listed here.

Skip- It is truly unfortunate for anyone to have any problems with any pet, snake, or animal they have purchased. You must understand that if you DO have IBD, which it isn't stated that you do or don't, then you are a very low percentage and should not be speaking for every boa or python or collector on the internet who practices strict quarantine procedures. It is a much higher risk of someone passing internal parasites throughout a collection then it is to have a snake carry IBD unknown for that long. Internal parasites can also cause devastating results and whatnot without treatment.

I have sent the following email from my university email account. I will post any information if I get a reply.

Dr. Jacobson,

Myself and many other snake lovers are interested in information on Inclusion Body Disease. Could you enlighten us on any published articles or literature that may better inform us on this disease?

Thanks for your time,
Paul Kelley

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Nevermind...I'm only saying that if you follow all the rules of quarantine for EACH AND EVERY snake you bring in, boas or pythons or even cornsnakes, you won't have a problem with 99.9% of the problems that have been listed here.

Skip- It is truly unfortunate for anyone to have any problems with any pet, snake, or animal they have purchased. You must understand that if you DO have IBD, which it isn't stated that you do or don't, then you are a very low percentage and should not be speaking for every boa or python or collector on the internet who practices strict quarantine procedures. It is a much higher risk of someone passing internal parasites throughout a collection then it is to have a snake carry IBD unknown for that long. Internal parasites can also cause devastating results and whatnot without treatment.

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We've looked into OPMV and crypto also.

Again, IBD is not a given in my case..............but almost everything else has been ruled out. It's a waiting game at this point.

Without inflaming the issue any further, I'll PM you with some additional info. One thing I have learned about IBD is that the vets that have a different view on it's potential prevalence and their frustration at trying to diagnose the disease in live animals.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

We've looked into OPMV and crypto also.

Again, IBD is not a given in my case..............but almost everything else has been ruled out. It's a waiting game at this point.

Without inflaming the issue any further, I'll PM you with some additional info. One thing I have learned about IBD is that the vets that have a different view on it's potential prevalence and their frustration at trying to diagnose the disease in live animals.

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Ok. Pm away!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ohyeahnow

I have sent the following email from my university email account. I will post any information if I get a reply.

Dr. Jacobson,

Myself and many other snake lovers are interested in information on Inclusion Body Disease. Could you enlighten us on any published articles or literature that may better inform us on this disease?

Thanks for your time,
Paul Kelley

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If he emails you back can you post it here, I am always up for reading as much as possible about issues like this.

Thanks

If you can figure out how to post PDF files stored on my computer I can. He sent them to my university email and they can only open in that account. I sent Skiploder the links, but because it is my account the links will not open. I emailed him the files after saving to my computer. If you have acess to journal data bases I can send you the journals names and article names Jacobson sent me and the ones he has listed on his web site. I will be on later today.

To: "Paul A Kelley/O/VCU" <kelleypa@vcu.edu>
From: "Elliott Jacobson" <JacobsonE@vetmed.ufl.edu>
Date: 10/23/2008 09:50PM
Subject: RE: Inclusion Body Disease

Attached is an article published in the December issue of Reptiles Magazine and a paper published in veterinary journal (a 2nd paper will follow in the next e-mail). I have a graduate student working on developing a diagnostic test for IBD. Unfortunately there is limited funding to do such work. For the most part, the reptile industry/breeders have done little to support studies to better understand and diagnose infectious diseases of reptiles that are being sold in the pet trade.

Sincerely,

Elliott Jacobson, DVM, PhD
Professor of Zoological Medicine

Hi,

You want to open the emails with the pdf's and then save the attatchments to somewhere on your computer.

Then you upload that file you saved to a website or file hosting site and then give people the links to that.

You could also forward the email to someone and they could do it for you.


dr del

Does he say how he would like the reptile industry to support research?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jim020cricket

Does he say how he would like the reptile industry to support research?

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I think it's outlined in the last paragraph of the Reptiles Magazine article he wrote.

I think the problem is that the industry has not really supported research. I mean, I've seen interviews with some of the larger boid breeders who have poo-poo'd the disease.

Not to beat a dead horse, but if comparisons are being made to IBD being the snake equivalent to HIV - what does that mean? If people were to diagnose HIV based on symptoms, only the people who came down with full blown AIDS would be studied. As we know, not everyone who has HIV immediately develops a full-blown case of AIDS - the latency period can be in excess of 20 years.

So if necropsies done on a boid species show that anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of animals that died of non-IBD causes tested positive for the retrovirus, the worst case scenario is that 1/3 of animals carry the virus but are in a latency period where while they are asymptomatic, they can potentially still infect other boids.

How many breeders to you know that are performing necropsies on their animal who die? It's not uncommon for a breeder to lose an animal with no apparent symptoms or warning. How many breeders are performing liver or tissue biopsies to randomly screen for the disease? How many are donating money to IBD research?

I think the answer in many cases is "not many". There may be some exceptions to the rule but I can provide links to the interview I referred to above.

I'm dealing with a possible case of IBD, too. Still have a lot to learn. Its my sister's BCI.
How likely would it be to get a false negative on a live biopsy from a snake that is showing severe neurological signs? I'm worried that if we get the test done, it will be inconclusive. It might be better to euthanize him and have a full necropsy done. He's on his way out, as it is, and we really need to know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by halfwaynowhere

I'm dealing with a possible case of IBD, too. Still have a lot to learn. Its my sister's BCI.
How likely would it be to get a false negative on a live biopsy from a snake that is showing severe neurological signs? I'm worried that if we get the test done, it will be inconclusive. It might be better to euthanize him and have a full necropsy done. He's on his way out, as it is, and we really need to know.

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In terms of live biopsies - if you test the liver and get a negative; it can be two things. (1) The liver has no inclusion cells in it (but maybe the kidney or the pancreas do) or (2) the animal does not have IBD.

Snakes can have neurological problems from other sources: amoebic encephalitis, trauma due to chemical toxicity, bacterial toxins, "heat" stroke, etc.