Why are females more expensive?

Like the title says, why do females almost always cost more than males?

I know people might say it's because they produce the eggs, but I still don't get it. The male provides equal amount of genes. Both sexes have equally important genetics when breeding for recessive morphs and homo forms of codom morphs. And as for het forms of codoms, a male het x female norm produces the same offspring as a male norm x female het so I don't see any more value in the female there.

So what's the deal?

Supply and demand.

There are fewer females available on the market, because the breeders that produce them hold more females back than males (if they even hold any males back at all).

For example ... I have a lesser male (or three or seven or something like that) ... if I breed him to a bunch of normal girls and produce 10.10 lessers, I'll sell off all the males (because I have males and don't need them) ... I'll want to keep all of the girls because I can breed them to all kinds of other stuff and make designer mutations ... but, I do have to make some money here and there, so I'll offer a couple for sale ... but for a little more than I offer the males for ... because they have more value to my breeding programs than the males do.

Hope this helps.

-adam

Exactly what I was going to say :D you only need 1 male to breed a bunch of girls.

Good ol' free(ish) market driven prices.

You can stud a male to more than one female, but a female can only take one male a year maybe?

Would you rather buy ten male pieds and one female pied, or the other way around?;)

Ahhh there we go, makes sense. Males tend to be in surplus because most codom morph breeding is started by doing codom male x norm female clutches. Females are more rare therefore more valuable.

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You can stud a male to more than one female, but a female can only take one male a year maybe?

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One weird thing though when you look at it from this point of view... if you bred a pastel male to 5 normal females you will get 5 clutches of 50% poss. pastel, whereas one female pastel can only be fertilized by one male normal to produce one clutch of 50% poss. pastel. The male pastel has the ability to pass his genes on in many clutches, whereas the female pastel can only pass her genes on in one clutch. When you look at it this way the males should be more valuable, since they can pass their valuable genes on much more than females.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Would you rather buy ten male pieds and one female pied, or the other way around?;)

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One male pied has the ability to fertilize 10 pied females. The male can pass his valuable genes on 10 times, the females can only do it once a piece. It's weird the males don't cost more since they can reproduce their valuable genes in many clutches as opposed to one.

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

One weird thing though when you look at it from this point of view... if you bred a pastel male to 5 normal females you will get 5 clutches of 50% poss. pastel, whereas one female pastel can only be fertilized by one male normal to produce one clutch of 50% poss. pastel. The male pastel has the ability to pass his genes on in many clutches, whereas the female pastel can only pass her genes on in one clutch. When you look at it this way the males should be more valuable, since they can pass their valuable genes on much more than females.

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Still a supply vs demand issue ... there are less females available, so the price is higher. Breeders only need but so many males of any given mutation ... when it comes to females, as a breeder, there is no number that I consider "enough".

-adam

I agree, it comes down to supply and demand, and as far as $$$ goes females win.

But wouldn't you agree that at least genetically, mainly in regard to being able to pass on valuable genes more readily than females, the males are more valuable?

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

I agree, it comes down to supply and demand, and as far as $$$ goes females win.

But wouldn't you agree that at least genetically, and in regard to being able to pass on valuable genes more readily than females, the males are more valuable

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I wouldn't agree.

In the short term, and if you don't have any other male mutations, it may seem that way ... but long term, making rare combinations by crossing a morph male with different morph females has far more "value".

I have a ton of morph males, and can't get enough morph females to breed them to. It's far better to breed a single male mutation to 5 female mutations than it is to 5 female normals.

-adam

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

I agree, it comes down to supply and demand, and as far as $$$ goes females win.

But wouldn't you agree that at least genetically, mainly in regard to being able to pass on valuable genes more readily than females, the males are more valuable?

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I wouldn't say so as a breeder your Females are your life line in a controlled market those who produce control the flow of product in the market if one male can breed 5-10 females and say each female produces and average of 6 eggs that's 60 eggs from a co-dom say 30 will be morphs at say an average of 200.00 a baby that's 6000.00 revenue. Now If I make females more expensive where every Joe on the block can surplus stock pile them. Then I control the number of animals produced not only by me but by others as well which maintains the market value. i.e. The fewer there are the more they are worth. The genetics has nothing to do with it, its the long term potential impact on value that's taken into effect

A spider male could breed to a female mojo, a female lesser, a female pastel, and a female fire in the same season and help produce a bunch of combo morphs. That spider male enabled 4 clutches of combo morphs

A female spider could be bred by one morph male. That spider female enabled one clutch of combo morphs.

Which one was able to pass on it's genes most readily and able to contribute to creating the most combo morphs? That's what I am trying to say, males can pass on there genes to a large number of clutches per season and females can only pass genes to their one clutch.

It's off topic from the monetary value question now, this is just genetically speaking. I know why females are more valuable in regard to $$$

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

A spider male could breed to a female mojo, a female lesser, a female pastel, and a female fire in the same season and help produce a bunch of combo morphs. That spider male enabled 4 clutches of combo morphs

A female spider could be bred by one morph male. That spider female enabled one clutch of combo morphs.

Which one was able to pass on it's genes most readily and able to contribute to creating the most combo morphs? That's what I am trying to say, males can pass on there genes to a large number of clutches per season and females can only pass genes to their one clutch.

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Correct but look at it this way if females only gave one or two eggs they'd be cheaper. But take for example my last clutch 11 eggs 8 of which are spiders. Now who was more important the male that pass 1/2 its genetic material to each offspring or the female that produce the 11 off spring. If it was the male could secure a certain number of baby's they'd cost more. But since the female determines the number of baby's they are the greater part of the puzzle. From a business and cost stand point

That's kind of like saying, "What's more important...the seed or the fruit?" You have to have the seed to create the fruit...one seed can produce hundreds of fruit...whereas one piece of fruit may produce only a few seeds. But you can't have one without the other...so how could one be more valuable? You use them differently, but each is 100% dependent on the other.

Maybe consider starting with the question, "How many clutches do I want this year?" If you want FIVE clutches, then you are going to need FIVE females. I don't care if you have the most beautiful male morph with five different co-dom genes going on inside of him....he won't get you five clutches if you only have one female.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Correct but look at it this way if females only gave one or two eggs they'd be cheaper. But take for example my last clutch 11 eggs 8 of which are spiders. Now who was more important the male that pass 1/2 its genetic material to each offspring or the female that produce the 11 off spring. If it was the male could secure a certain number of baby's they'd cost more. But since the female determines the number of baby's they are the greater part of the puzzle. From a business and cost stand point

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Now we are really going into a "which came first the snake or the egg?" question! The female would never be able to produce offspring without the male, and the male couldn't pass his genes without the female.

A male can be responsible for helping producing 5 11 egg clutches, a female can be responsible for producing 1 11 egg clutch.

We better stop before we create a paradox logic loop that creates a wormhole and sucks us into another universe :rolleye2:

I gotta go have some breakfast before my brain explodes!

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

We better stop before we create a paradox logic loop that creates a wormhole and sucks us into another universe :rolleye2:

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I always wanted to visit another universe! :weirdface :D

And in that universe males will be worth more and I can be right once and for all, lol

Bizarro world! Norms are $15,000 and pastel ghost mojave fire womas breed out in the wild

I cant see were your getting at, if you have one female where as youd have one male, and have ten males of the same morph, you can breed them all to that one girl but your still going to get the same amount of that same morph as breeding one male to ten females. Whats the point of buying one male of the same morph other than a back up or het something?

I never argued for having multiple males of the same morph. That's not what I was saying at all.

Everyone's made it very clear, I understand females are more valuable, I'm just saying males are more efficient at passing on their genetics. They can pass genetics to many clutches per season whereas females can only pass their genetics to one clutch per season. That's all I'm saying, no relation to market value or rarity or how desirable they are to a breeder.

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

They can pass genetics to many clutches per season whereas females can only pass their genetics to one clutch per season.

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If you have a het albino male, you NEED het albino or albino females to make albinos ... you don't need normal females to make albinos (because you can't make albinos with normal females) and buying more het albino males is pretty pointless ... so if you own a het albino male and you want to make albinos, albino females and het albino females are more valuable to you than het albino males or even albino males will ever be. As a matter of fact, if you owned a het albino male, it would almost be impossible for a breeder to sell you a het albino male even at a super cheap price ... but if you own a het albino male and a breeder had het albino females for a little more than their het albino males and you had the money to spend ... you might think about it. The breeder is asking a little more for his het albino females because there are 100's of people out there with het albino males all looking for het albino females to make albinos with and the breeder sells them pretty easily. Unfortunately for the breeder, the list of people looking for just a het albino male is pretty small.

Using your logic, sure, you can make 50% possible het albinos all day long. But producing an albino in the long run is far more valuable than any profit realized from all of the possible hets that you produce combined.

-adam

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

I agree, it comes down to supply and demand, and as far as $$$ goes females win.

But wouldn't you agree that at least genetically, mainly in regard to being able to pass on valuable genes more readily than females, the males are more valuable?

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In pretty much the entirety of selective breeding, yes, a fantastic breeder male is genetically more important, and therefore more expensive, than a fantastic breeder female. Look at cows, horses, and probably every other farm animal as well.

In the world of cows, the average price for males is way low. That is because most males aren't intended for breeding, and are instead just raised for slaughter. But a breeder male, on the other hand, a truly superior specimen, that is where you get crazy prices.

In the world of BPs, there isn't anywhere near as much competition for selective breeding as there is in farm stock. For the most part, a mojave male is a mojave male. You can see this in how they are priced, even from breeder to breeder a mojave male will cost you about the same. On top of that, there isn't any demand for males outside of single specimen pets or for breeding. Snakes really don't occupy any market in the US except the pet market.

If I was a BP breeder, I would have no problem paying more for a truly best-in-the-world specimen of a male of some morph that I wanted to breed, than the same for a female. However like I said before, the prices for BPs all seem to say that in general, even between two different breeders, it seems a mojave is a mojave and a spider is a spider.

Continuing the same thought: I wouldn't be surprised for a super rare BP morph (<10 specimens?) to have males be more expensive than females, because that is the only way to do powerhouse breeding when your list of possible snakes with that gene is so limited.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Continuing the same thought: I wouldn't be surprised for a super rare BP morph (<10 specimens?) to have males be more expensive than females, because that is the only way to do powerhouse breeding when your list of possible snakes with that gene is so limited.

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That's absolutely the way it works ... for the super rare stuff, EVERYONE wants males that they can get to breeding size in 3 months and breed to a bazillion females so that they can cash in on the mega dollars.

But, for 99.9% of the mutations that are out there, everyone wants the girls ... I wish it wasn't true, cause I'd love to keep all my girls, but sadly it's not. :(

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

... when it comes to females, as a breeder, there is no number that I consider "enough".

-adam

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That translates into real life also!

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Originally Posted by monk90222

That translates into real life also!

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Minus the breeder part, that just turns into a bad Maury Povich show

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

But, for 99.9% of the mutations that are out there, everyone wants the girls ... I wish it wasn't true, cause I'd love to keep all my girls, but sadly it's not. :(

-adam

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I'm more interested in female normies right now than anything else :D I think if in a few years I get into breeding, I'll probably get a pair of unrelated male of some morph(probably a co-dom of some sort) to breed to some female normies, simply because it's more cost efficient to get started at least getting a decent number of clutches.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I'm more interested in female normies right now than anything else :D I think if in a few years I get into breeding, I'll probably get a pair of unrelated male of some morph(probably a co-dom of some sort) to breed to some female normies, simply because it's more cost efficient to get started at least getting a decent number of clutches.

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Normals females aren't even going to be worth much soon, most poeple are replacing normals with atleast pastels now because of the price. I only have 6 normal females and I dont know want anything more than that.

[QUOTE=Adam_Wysocki;890256(because you can't make albinos with normal females)
-adam[/QUOTE]

That's funny. I thought I remembered a guy that bred a Pin to a Normal and produced an Albino Pin. Maybe I was dreaming that one. LOL!!!!

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Originally Posted by muddoc

That's funny. I thought I remembered a guy that bred a Pin to a Normal and produced an Albino Pin. Maybe I was dreaming that one. LOL!!!!

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OH NO HE DIDN'T :colbert::rofl:

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Originally Posted by muddoc

That's funny. I thought I remembered a guy that bred a Pin to a Normal and produced an Albino Pin. Maybe I was dreaming that one. LOL!!!!

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If the normal was Het (and the pin was het albino as well) then its entirely possible.

Then again, a "het" isn't really normal, it just looks that way :)

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Originally Posted by LizardofOzz

If the normal was Het (and the pin was het albino as well) then its entirely possible.

Then again, a "het" isn't really normal, it just looks that way :)

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It was Adam that did that, that's why Tim made the statement. He bred what he believed to be a pin to what he believed to be a normal, and found out that both were indeed het albino's. The normal female came from a friend who got it from a pet store surrender (if I remember correctly) and when he got the pin, he wasn't told it was a possible het albino.

He was the second breeder to ever produce an albino pin. :D