Feeding live rats (somewhat gruesome story beware plz)

...... I can't do it anymore.






Please be aware the following story is graphic if you have a weak stomach please please don't read it.




I have a beautiful 1600g breeder female that I just purchased about a month ago. She has been kind of picky, just getting used to her new environment I suppose. The previous owner told me that he fed her live rats exclusively and that she was eating 2 per week for him as she was bred this year and was trying to put the weight she lost back on. Before last night she never even showed interest in the rat I got for her. I'd put him in her tub and he would run all over her pooping and what not and finally just take over her hide and sit there. Finally (or so I thought) last night I guess she was hungry enough because she struck him and I thought that was it. Well she only constricted around his neck not his body apparently and she squeezed so hard on his head that both his eyes popped out and he was bleeding from his nose and his mouth profusely. THEN SHE LET HIM GO! I opened the tub because I heard him running around like crazy and I don't want her to get hurt and there is blood absolutely everywhere and she's sitting in the corner completely ignoring him. I didn't know what else to do and he seemed to be in so much pain so I had to take him outside and kill him.

I honestly don't think I can ever feed live again, that girl will have to learn to love f/t and fast because she's not getting any more live. I've got a small rat colony right now but all the grow outs will be euthanized prior to being fed. Sorry for the long and probably stupid post but I'm so shook up by it still the day after just had to get it off my chest.

EWW THATS GROSS!! ive seen eyes bulging, but never pop out. i hope she eats f/t for you.

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Originally Posted by evil mechanic

EWW THATS GROSS!! ive seen eyes bulging, but never pop out. i hope she eats f/t for you.

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Thanks, yeah me too. It was not a pretty picture. I'm pretty sure his skull was cracked or something. She must have had him pretty good.

o
my
god

for the love of god feed frozen.

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Originally Posted by extensive

o
my
god

for the love of god feed frozen.

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All my other snakes, with the exception of my baby corns who go back and forth between live and f/t mouse pinks, eat f/t with no problems and I have a whole shelf in my freezer full of them. I'd have fed her f/t too but like I said the guy I bought her from said she only ate live and I wanted to get a meal or two in her before I started trying to switch.

sorry, i think that is hilarious. She was probably just trying to get the rat to calm down. Anyway, just because that happened once, that does not mean it will happen again. I dont thiknk it is fair to her to deprive her of what she would eat naturally in nature. But its not my decison. i just think u should give live a couple more chances.

wow... im sorry that you, and the rat, had to go through that. i hate feeding live as it is but sometimes it cant be helped and if i had to go through something like that i dont know what i would do.

good luck getting her on frozen thawed.

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Originally Posted by spokism

sorry, i think that is hilarious. She was probably just trying to get the rat to calm down. Anyway, just because that happened once, that does not mean it will happen again. I dont thiknk it is fair to her to deprive her of what she would eat naturally in nature. But its not my decison. i just think u should give live a couple more chances.

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Well you can't really say that that is what they eat in the wild. We're talking about domesticated rats here which, I know it sounds crazy but bear with me, are not native to AFRICA!

I'll try her again on either PK or stunned but no more live, she'll switch to FT eventually.

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Originally Posted by spokism

sorry, i think that is hilarious. She was probably just trying to get the rat to calm down. Anyway, just because that happened once, that does not mean it will happen again. I dont thiknk it is fair to her to deprive her of what she would eat naturally in nature. But its not my decison. i just think u should give live a couple more chances.

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How is that hilarious?

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

Well you can't really say that that is what they eat in the wild. We're talking about domesticated rats here which, I know it sounds crazy but bear with me, are not native to AFRICA!

I'll try her again on either PK or stunned but no more live, she'll switch to FT eventually.

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i don't think he was referring to the exact species, just the fact that they eat live prey in the wild.

if it wasn't for the absurd cost for rats where i live, i would prefer to feed live. *most* of the time, your snake should eat live just fine unless there is something else going on, incorrect husbandry or shed cycle for example.

after your situation, i completely understand your choice. that must have been pretty graphic. although, i don't think you should abandon live prey altogether. :twocents:

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Originally Posted by gmcclurelssu

i don't think he was referring to the exact species, just the fact that they eat live prey in the wild.

if it wasn't for the absurd cost for rats where i live, i would prefer to feed live. *most* of the time, your snake should eat live just fine unless there is something else going on, incorrect husbandry or shed cycle for example.

after your situation, i completely understand your choice. that must have been pretty graphic. although, i don't think you should abandon live prey altogether. :twocents:

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If her snake will eat f/t like all the rest of her snakes then why shouldn't she go to f/t? You will find lots of opinions on here about it and my snake is just as healthy eating f/t as he would be if I was feeding him live.

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Originally Posted by gmcclurelssu

i don't think he was referring to the exact species, just the fact that they eat live prey in the wild.

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Thats exactly what i was talking about. It is not natural for them to eat dead prey, and i dont think it is fair to keep them captive AND feed them dead prey.

Also i think that is halarious just because i have no compasion for rats. Not because she didnt eat it. I just picture it funny that a rat with no eyes was running around. Maby im just evil:cool:

Nature is gruesome, ever watch discovery channel or animal planet?

If you can get your bp to take frozen then go for it but I am finding it hard to switch some stubborn snakes over and if they refuse to eat its just not worth it to have them sit there and not grow lol.

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Originally Posted by djansen

If you can get your bp to take frozen then go for it but I am finding it hard to switch some stubborn snakes over and if they refuse to eat its just not worth it to have them sit there and not grow lol.

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thats why i dont condone f/t feeding. Its hard to get them to do it because it is going aganst their natural instincts, and they just dont like it. Its not really fair

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Originally Posted by spokism

Thats exactly what i was talking about. It is not natural for them to eat dead prey, and i dont think it is fair to keep them captive AND feed them dead prey.

Also i think that is halarious just because i have no compasion for rats. Not because she didnt eat it. I just picture it funny that a rat with no eyes was running around. Maby im just evil:cool:

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This is a family friendly forum, so perhaps in the future, keep these types of comments rated G.


Sorry to hear about the poor rat. I really don't like to feed live either, but my snakes are my pets and must be fed what they will take, and a majority will take FT or live, but a few just wont.

It does sound like this was just a fluke accident, but I would have been just as torn up about it too. I hate to see an animal suffer. :(


My advice is to gas the animal before you attempt to feed her. Prekill is just about the next best thing to feeding live. I strongly believe that time and patience will help switch her to eating prekilled rats and in time perhaps FT.

I understand the arguments against f/t it's just, like I said before, I have rats and my breeders really are my pets just like my snakes are. So yeah I do get somewhat attached to them as much as I might try not to. The way I see it if I can get them eating f/t why not? It saves me having to worry that either the rat is going to hurt the snake or that the snake is just going to "hurt" the rat and then let it go like happened last night. I mean if the snake strikes at a f/t rat, constricts, and then lets it go so what the rat is already dead.

I know this is all part of having a predator in your home and 100% of the time my snakes come first to me but I am going to do everything I can to not have to feed live.

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Originally Posted by spokism

thats why i dont condone f/t feeding. Its hard to get them to do it because it is going aganst their natural instincts, and they just dont like it. Its not really fair

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How many snakes do you have? Most of my animals take FT AND live. I can honestly say that if the UK and Europe can feed the vast majority of their snakes FT or Prekilled, it can't be so hard. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

My advice is to gas the animal before you attempt to feed her. Prekill is just about the next best thing to feeding live. I strongly believe that time and patience will help switch her to eating prekilled rats and in time perhaps FT.

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Thanks Connie, I'm trying to find a fill valve for a paintball CO2 tank so I can set up an actual CO2 chamber. I've used the vinegar and baking soda method on crawlers and it works well but I have yet to try that on a larger rat and it would just be so much easier if I'm going to just do one at a time for a PK feeder.

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Originally Posted by spokism

thats why i dont condone f/t feeding. Its hard to get them to do it because it is going aganst their natural instincts, and they just dont like it. Its not really fair

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Stan has a great feeding response - strikes and coils and has yet to miss a meal and he has f/t. Never had a problem with it.

i see where you are coming from. They are your snakes and you will feed them the way that you will. As long as your :snake:ies are happy and healthy.

The f/t thing is just my opinion. Good luck. Just as long as the stay healthy and happy:):)

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Originally Posted by SecurityStacey

If her snake will eat f/t like all the rest of her snakes then why shouldn't she go to f/t? You will find lots of opinions on here about it and my snake is just as healthy eating f/t as he would be if I was feeding him live.

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i didn't say that f/t is any more or less healthy. and yes there are a lot of opinions about it- but they are still opinions, with many feeding live and f/t. if the snake in question will switch to f/t as the op wishes, they good for them. they will save some money and not have to risk being grossed out again. my opinion is to feed my snake live if i can, not to keep someone from feeding f/t if they so choose

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

Thanks Connie, I'm trying to find a fill valve for a paintball CO2 tank so I can set up an actual CO2 chamber. I've used the vinegar and baking soda method on crawlers and it works well but I have yet to try that on a larger rat and it would just be so much easier if I'm going to just do one at a time for a PK feeder.

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I believe we ordered our whole set up online.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

How many snakes do you have? Most of my animals take FT AND live. I can honestly say that if the UK and Europe can feed the vast majority of their snakes FT or Prekilled, it can't be so hard. :rolleyes:

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I have 6 BPs, 3 juvies (300-500g) 2 babies (100-200g) and the one adult (1600g+) 1 sub adult king, one adult corn and 5 baby corns. My original BP takes either f/t or live but lately I've been feeding her solely f/t with a very occasional live rat fuzzy or pup. The two babies will both eat a rat fuzzy but I always feed them PK (if I gassed a group the same day) or f/t

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

I have 6 BPs, 3 juvies (300-500g) 2 babies (100-200g) and the one adult (1600g+) 1 sub adult king, one adult corn and 5 baby corns. My original BP takes either f/t or live but lately I've been feeding her solely f/t with a very occasional live rat fuzzy or pup. The two babies will both eat a rat fuzzy but I always feed them PK (if I gassed a group the same day) or f/t

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Sorry, that wasn't directed towards you, but good to know anyways. ;)

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

I have 6 BPs, 3 juvies (300-500g) 2 babies (100-200g) and the one adult (1600g+) 1 sub adult king, one adult corn and 5 baby corns. My original BP takes either f/t or live but lately I've been feeding her solely f/t with a very occasional live rat fuzzy or pup. The two babies will both eat a rat fuzzy but I always feed them PK (if I gassed a group the same day) or f/t

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For what its worth - I think she was aiming that question at spokism when he said that he didn't condone f/t feeding.

BTW, I think it got lost somewhere in all this but I'm really sorry that happened. Yes, nature is gruesome, but that doesn't mean it doesn't bother us when it happens. Especially if you breed your own rats, that's gotta be rough. Good luck with going to f/t or prekilled.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I believe we ordered our whole set up online.

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Do you remember where you ordered it from? I've got a foam cooler that I've been using for a CO2 chamber which works well because if it ever gets torn up it's like $1.50 for a new one but I might try and make something a little more permanent and maybe a bit smaller. I'll look around online though and see if I can find parts to make it.

OMG! Kyros my ball pops their eyeballs too! Its soooo gross! He does it about 3 out of 5 times feeding him. so i would suppose its normal! Sorry for your bad experiance! I hope my feeding day goes ok today * crosses fingers*

Snakes are Predators...Not scavengers... When you choose to keep a predator as a pet, you have to suck it up and accept that this kind of thing will happen now and then. I am not going to get deep into the FT vs Live debate again... But I know that hunting and killing live prey is one of the main Instinctual behaviors that snakes have... but once again here we go changing the way they live, actually the way they hunt and eat, for our own convenience....I don't agree with it. I don't keep hundreds of BP's but if I did, they would all eat live food, cause that is how. I am trying to mimic a natural environment for my snakes as much as possible, not trying to train my snake to live within my convenience and comfort.

I personally have respect for every living animal. And it does get hard to think of all the rats I have sent to their deaths, and supervising these feedings can get tough over time to. But I chose to keep these snakes, so I have to learn to deal with the fact that as predators...they should be allowed to hunt and kill live prey.

It all depends on your snake's feeding response. I have 12 BPs, 9 are solid F/T (all converted fom live, btw. The first few times took a lot of patience on my part, but now they all take their food eagerly), but 2 of my F/T eaters went on a hunger strike, so after a few meals missed, I tried live. One of them took, the other one still has not eaten (3 missed meals so far). These two do not have strong feeding responses at all. They didn't back when they were on live, and they don't on F/T either. The 3rd BP is new,and was feeding live, so I waited a week & tried live. She struck, but did not coil. So we are on week 3 of not eating for that one. I am considering ASF's for her because I got her already underweight, so I have to try whatever to get her feeding again. Fecal was negative, btw.

Point is, snakes can be conditioned to eat F/T. Don't let anyone tell you it can't be done. You have to be careful where you get the frozen from (if you are breeding your own, then no issue there) in case they've been thawed out & re-frozen, etc. However, you will come across a few that will eat F/T sometimes & live other times, and some that will never eat F/T. I hate feeding live, but if it is definitely the only way that a particular snake will eat, then I will feed live.

Pay attention to your snake, and what it needs. I also advise that you try freshly pre-killed with a snake that does not have a strong feeding response before trying F/T. And when you do switch them to F/T, use tongs or tweezers (long ones). You will be performing puppet shows. Also, pre-scent the room. This helps immensely.

I consider myself pretty succesful with the F/T conversion issue, so hang in there.

Yeah, that's pretty much what happens when you feed live. They don't die from suffocation at all. They get squished into oblivion.

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Originally Posted by anendeloflorien

Do you remember where you ordered it from? I've got a foam cooler that I've been using for a CO2 chamber which works well because if it ever gets torn up it's like $1.50 for a new one but I might try and make something a little more permanent and maybe a bit smaller. I'll look around online though and see if I can find parts to make it.

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Well, I think we just bought the equipment on Ebay. The hose and ... (bear with me here) the little plug that you mount into the side of your chamber to hook up your CO2 hose and tank to.

Don't know what it's called, but yea... I'm pretty sure it was on ebay. We use a clear tub to put down our animals so we can see when they have passed so we don't waste any gas.

I won’t talk about the all live vs. f/t debate because to me there is none, feed what works and is convenient for you however keep in mind that if you want to feed f/t because of the gruesome scene you just experienced just remember that the same if not worse (rat exploding) can happen when feeding f/t.

It's not so much that the sight of it bothered me Deb it's just the fact that the animal was suffering so much. It's just something I would really like to avoid in the future.

I'm not trying to raise the F/t or live debate. People feed what they feel to be best for their snakes. If it truly does come down to this snake not eating anything but live that's what I will do but I'll exhaust all efforts to get her to eat F/t first. The health of my snakes always comes first in my mind.

My own convenience has very little to do with it. I have rats anyways so it's not a big deal for me to breed them and raise up the babies for a couple months. I honestly don't like buying f/t because I always wind up with some that don't get eaten or go bad in the freezer and it winds up costing me more money than it's worth for my own "convenience" just to have to drive and get them!

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feed what works and is convenient for you

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This is where it bothers me a bit.
First and foremost we should put all "keeper convenience" aside here and aim at creating a stable, healthy environment for the snake, where they can live and practice natural behaviors as if they were on their own in the wild. I say it all the time... We will never reproduce nature in a cage, but as long as we are keeping these animals captive, that should be the ultimate goal. Not creating an enviroment that is convenient for us, while giving the snake the bare minimun of wht they need to eat, poop, and shed. That is the main point I am getting at.

It was said a snake can be "conditioned" to eat FT? Your right, it can... But should we be condtioning an animal away from their natural behaviors for our convenince? You are taking an animal who is a natural born predator made to hunt and kill small animals, and conditioning them to eat dead animals for your convenience. Hmmm...No sir I don't like it.

No offense meant to anyone, I know not everyone agrees with me... I just thought I would share my views on the subject.

I am an advocate for the animal before the hobby.

Sorry guys, I'll get off my soap box...didn't mean to stray.

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conditioning them to eat dead animals for your convenience. Hmmm...No sir I don't like it.

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Don't you think that keeping those animals CAPTIVE is for your own convenience too or it is for the snake's convenience? :rolleyes:

I will stand by what I said each owner should feed what works and what is convenient for them without being judged by either side.

IT happens, part of life.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

But should we be condtioning an animal away from their natural behaviors for our convenince? You are taking an animal who is a natural born predator made to hunt and kill small animals, and conditioning them to eat dead animals for your convenience. Hmmm...No sir I don't like it.

No offense meant to anyone, I know not everyone agrees with me... I just thought I would share my views on the subject.

I am an advocate for the animal before the hobby.

Sorry guys, I'll get off my soap box...didn't mean to stray.

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It's convienent and keeps the animal alive and thriving. Wonderful to me!


We cannot decide how or what our animals think about what we feed them, but if my snakes all "hunt" their FT rat on tongs, strike, constrict and kill the already dead animal just like they would have in the wild, then how are we stripping them of the stimulation and behaviors when they react the same as if they were in the wild or killing a live rat?


The only thing I can think of to make it even more natural and realistic, would be to let my snake run around in a beautifully recreated savannah. Put the rat in a hole and pretend to be puppet master inside a small rodent hole to give the "natural" experience of a hunt for the snake.

BUT! Since I have limited means to do that, I consider the strike, constrict and killing behavior my snakes do with FT on tongs is as close as I can come to "au natural" without having to hear or see a suffering animal.


I am Connie the LittleIndianGirl, and I approve this method. *patriotic music*

Also take into consideration the environment in which the snake hunts in the wild, and open area where the snake is most likely completely hidden and can ambush the prey (or completely ignore it). In captivity when the rat decides to fight back, the snake can't flee and sometimes gets chewed up. I'm not against feeding live, but it has to be done with alot of care and supervision.

My snakes will usually constrict an f/t mouse just as much as a live mouse.

I do not buy the whole feeding f/t or pre-killed isn't fair to your snake. If you do not think that is fair then how its it fair that you are keeping them caged as a pet?

I'm not entirely sure if snakes benefit from envoriment enrichment in the same way mammals do, but I found this quote here
http://www.colchester-zoo.com/index....rich.technique

"Enrichment for Snakes - Quite possibly the hardest of all reptiles to enrich due to the fact that they will sleep 16 hours a day and if digesting a meal may sometimes lay motionless for days. There are, however, forms of enrichment that we have tried.

Scenting around the enclosure prior to feeding increases activity in the snakes.

Offering hiding places around the enclousre using soil and down pipes as well as hollowed out logs. Canopy branching, has also been used. It is best for arboreal species, such as the Madagascan tree boa. Not only does it provide snakes with more natural surrounding and interesting smells, it also encourages them to climb more. They appear to feel safer amongst foliage and are actually more visible for visitors. Branches used include willow, eucalyptus and poplar. The only disadvantage is that the foliage tends to dry out quickly and needs replacing regularly.

All of our snakes are fed from long canes or tongs, most are fed dead rodents. With all the species we try and make their feeding as exciting as possible by simulating live prey. This is simply done by shaking the food item to encourage the snake to strike but also once taken to still fight with the food to get the snake to constrict its prey."

I feed all of my snakes f/t. I move the prey around for them with tongs. They all watch the prey as I move it as if it were live, they all strike it as they would if it were live, they all constrict it as if it were live. There really isn't much of a difference.

I have approx 45 adult/subadult snakes
In 5 years i've only had to feed 3 of these live, they are Balls
and had previously been fed live and were tough to switch over to ft, but they made the change with a little work.
I can totally understand the bigger breeders raising on live, but for me, its not needed.
having said that, when i start producing balls in numbers, i'm sure the odd live will be required.
Also lifes a lot easier with a freezer full of rodents.
My wife puts up with a lot, losing the spare bedroom etc, but she hates the live thing.
Finally if you want a 'Natural' environment for your animals, give them a couple of acres of bush land -)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Don't you think that keeping those animals CAPTIVE is for your own convenience too or it is for the snake's convenience? :rolleyes:

I will stand by what I said each owner should feed what works and what is convenient for them without being judged by either side.

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I am not oposed to keeping animals in captivity... Some people find it ethically wrong, and I can understand where they are coming from. But personally I believe that on the hobbyist level, and not scientific research, if you can do like I said above... "First and foremost we should put all "keeper convenience" aside here and aim at creating a stable, healthy environment for the snake, where they can live and practice natural behaviors as if they were on their own in the wild". If you can strive for this, then it is obvious that you have the best interest of the animal in mind. I believe we are already taking enough from the animal by keeping them captive, we need to focus on not taking too much from them; a line needs to be drawn. To me, conditioning a born predator to eat frozen food is past that line. Again, I believe the goal of this hobby should not be to cram as many snakes into your place as you could possibly fit, condition them to eat in a way that is convenient for you, then crossing and inbreeding until we get a morph that looks appealing to us. I am not opposed to morph breeding, but I think the hobby focuses to much on it... oh well... that is the nature of the market... But we need to remember what herping is all about...To provide an environment where the animal can live it's life and behave in the way nature intended them to, for us to observe and learn from.

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We cannot decide how or what our animals think about what we feed them, but if my snakes all "hunt" their FT rat on tongs, strike, constrict and kill the already dead animal just like they would have in the wild, then how are we stripping them of the stimulation and behaviors when they react the same as if they were in the wild or killing a live rat?

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I understand your point... And I won't spend forever going on about the nutritional value that is lacking in frozen that is there in live, like the oxygenation level in the blood, brain juices and marrow. Our frozen food has preservatives in place to make sure to keep all the good stuff in there during the frozen period, FT rats have nothing.

I do know that a lot of snakes will happily pounce FT food, I will not argue that...But I do I have a personal experience that applies here.
I worked with a Boa a couple years back that was brought to a shop I know, as the owner could no longer care for it. This Boa had been fed on FT it's whole life (around 4 years is what I was told.) So when I started working with the snake I continued with what it had been raised on, but after the 3rd feeding, and I was yet to see a strike or constriction, I started to realize that this snake had lost touch with it's strike and contrict instinct. We normally think of instincts as behaviors that are embeded that can't be broken, but given an environment where killing it's prey wasn't necesarry for years, it lost touch with this behavior. Offered a live moving rat, the snake coiled into the corner in fear.:( I know this is not the case all the time, and may be a very isolated instance caused by the husbandry issues said snake had been exposed to. I worked with the snake for 2 months before finding him a great home, but over 8 feedings I never once saw a stike or constriction from this 6 foot snake. Not saying that all snakes will behave this way, but definately worth thinking about.

For what its worth all of my Balls constrict f/t as much as any live i've ever seen.
Even the Corns will constrict for ages before chowing down.
As for hognoses, they'll eat anything backwards/frontwards/sideways etc etc:)

I fed my BP his first f/t last Friday 'cause he's been absolutely horrible at striking...he'd miss almost every time on his first strike *there is no stuck shed on his eyes*...I'd be too worried for his safety when he needs to start eating rats...I think that as long as the snake is healthy it doesn't really matter...oh...and he acted as if the mouse were alive so I don't think they really care either...

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Originally Posted by Melevarin

I fed my BP his first f/t last Friday 'cause he's been absolutely horrible at striking...he'd miss almost every time on his first strike *there is no stuck shed on his eyes*...I'd be too worried for his safety when he needs to start eating rats...I think that as long as the snake is healthy it doesn't really matter...oh...and he acted as if the mouse were alive so I don't think they really care either...

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Have you tried warming the rat in water, it makes a HUGE difference.
Without the heat , they can't 'see' it , add a little warmth and they can ?

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I worked with a Boa a couple years back that was brought to a shop I know, as the owner could no longer care for it. This Boa had been fed on FT it's whole life (around 4 years is what I was told.) So when I started working with the snake I continued with what it had been raised on, but after the 3rd feeding, and I was yet to see a strike or constriction, I started to realize that this snake had lost touch with it's strike and contrict instinct. We normally think of instincts as behaviors that are embeded that can't be broken, but given an environment where killing it's prey wasn't necesarry for years, it lost touch with this behavior. Offered a live moving rat, the snake coiled into the corner in fear.:( I worked with the snake for 2 months before finding him a great home, but over 8 feedings I never once saw a stike or constriction from this 6 foot snake. Not saying that all snakes will behave this way, but definately worth thinking about.

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I'm not in any way discrediting or mocking your personal experience, however I strongly believe with time and proper techniques applied, the snake would have started taking live again.

Heres a couple of pics of my Enchi and Pinstripe
'Killing' some f/t
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/...fcddaa6a_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/...646e88cd_b.jpg

Cool Pics,as For Eyes Popping Out They Do What They Do Just So The Snake Did,nt Get Bit They Are Very Effective Killers Wonder Why She Did'nt Finish The Job Ive Had A Few Kill & Not Eat For Some Reason?

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I'm not in any way discrediting or mocking your personal experience, however I strongly believe with time and proper techniques applied, the snake would have started taking live again.

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I agree that eventually the snake could have been moved over to live again... Definately possible. I did try, with scenting, dancing dead prey, fresh pre killed and stunned to no avail. The only way he would eat it is if you plopped it in his cage and let him be, and even then it could go a good while before the snake decided to ingest it. My point was that in this case this was a natural predator that would only eat dead animals, Therefore an animal that had been broken of it's natural behaviors for the convenience of the keeper, and this is what we should try to avoid.

Hi,

Don't take this the wrong way but I have to ask.

Given these quotes;

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

It was said a snake can be "conditioned" to eat FT? Your right, it can... But should we be condtioning an animal away from their natural behaviors for our convenince? You are taking an animal who is a natural born predator made to hunt and kill small animals, and conditioning them to eat dead animals for your convenience. Hmmm...No sir I don't like it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

I believe we are already taking enough from the animal by keeping them captive, we need to focus on not taking too much from them; a line needs to be drawn. To me, conditioning a born predator to eat frozen food is past that line.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

My point was that in this case this was a natural predator that would only eat dead animals, Therefore an animal that had been broken of it's natural behaviors for the convenience of the keeper, and this is what we should try to avoid.

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And your signature ( my bolding ) ;

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon's signature

0.1 Ball Python, 1.0 RTB, 2.1 Veiled Chameleon, Unknown amount of Veiled Babies bakin' in the oven, 1.0 Ambilobe/Nosy Be Panther, 0.1 Nosy Be Panther, 0.1 Jacksons Chameleon, 1.1 Bearded Dragons, 1.1 Cats, 0.1 Attention Hungry Girlfriend.

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What do you feed your cats?


To the O.P,

It sounds more like your snake was not really in feeding mode or was not prepared to ambush it.

How long did you pre-scent for and what was the snakes behaviour just before you introduced the rat?

I feed exclusively F/T but even then I have noticed I get a much better success rate in feedings if the snake is ready and expecting the prey before I offer it.

I would try again in a week but this time try and use a smaller prey item and extend the pre scenting time and , if the snake shows no reaction or hunting behaviour simply keep the rat till the next feeding day.

This also has the advantage you know the prey animal has had a week of good nutrition etc. :)


dr del

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Originally Posted by spokism

Thats exactly what i was talking about. It is not natural for them to eat dead prey, and i dont think it is fair to keep them captive AND feed them dead prey.

Also i think that is halarious just because i have no compasion for rats. Not because she didnt eat it. I just picture it funny that a rat with no eyes was running around. Maby im just evil:cool:

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You don't have to have "compassion" for rats, but it wouldn't do any harm to have even a tiny bit of respect for the animal that is the sole reason you have a living snake in your house.

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Originally Posted by spokism

thats why i dont condone f/t feeding. Its hard to get them to do it because it is going aganst their natural instincts, and they just dont like it. Its not really fair

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That's far too broad a statement. Lots of snakes eat f/t prey, just like lots of snakes eat live prey and lots of snakes eat p/k prey. If they eat it, they like it...it's just that simple. Do you honestly think some snake is eating f/t prey and thinking "well I really don't like this but I guess I have to eat it".

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Originally Posted by RoyalGuardian

OMG! Kyros my ball pops their eyeballs too! Its soooo gross! He does it about 3 out of 5 times feeding him. so i would suppose its normal! Sorry for your bad experiance! I hope my feeding day goes ok today * crosses fingers*

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No it's not normal. I feed live to almost 50 snakes a week here, from under 100 gram hatchlings to full adult boas and I do not have a bunch of rat eyeballs rolling around the enclosures. In fact in literally 1,000's of live feedings I've never seen it happen. I've seen some minor mouth, eye or ear bleeds from prey but again, very minor not even enough usually to require the snake's enclosure to be cleaned post feeding.

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Originally Posted by SoCaliSon

This is where it bothers me a bit.
First and foremost we should put all "keeper convenience" aside here and aim at creating a stable, healthy environment for the snake, where they can live and practice natural behaviors as if they were on their own in the wild. I say it all the time... We will never reproduce nature in a cage, but as long as we are keeping these animals captive, that should be the ultimate goal. Not creating an enviroment that is convenient for us, while giving the snake the bare minimun of wht they need to eat, poop, and shed. That is the main point I am getting at.

It was said a snake can be "conditioned" to eat FT? Your right, it can... But should we be condtioning an animal away from their natural behaviors for our convenince? You are taking an animal who is a natural born predator made to hunt and kill small animals, and conditioning them to eat dead animals for your convenience. Hmmm...No sir I don't like it.

No offense meant to anyone, I know not everyone agrees with me... I just thought I would share my views on the subject.

I am an advocate for the animal before the hobby.

Sorry guys, I'll get off my soap box...didn't mean to stray.

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I'm a live feeder but I don't fool myself into thinking for one minute I'm creating anything close to what their life is like "on their own in the wild". If I wanted that I'd have to build a termite mound or dig some rat burrows, make sure to import some African ticks to latch on to them, let them go hungry for months, toss in a wandering predator to eat a few of them, etc.

They are captive snakes living captive lives. How you feed is a keeper's decision based on what works for the keeper and their snakes. As long as it's a well thought out decision based on knowledge and research into that particular feeding method and the snake accepts that prey with a strong feeding instinct....it's all good.