Productive Breeding Life

I've been googling like crazy for this information but really can't find a good answer. Does anyone know what the average productive breeding life of an ASF female is?

I've found information that they generally live about 3 years for the males, about 2 years for the females but nothing on how much of that time she's highly productive. I'd like an idea of when I need to be weeding out the older females to keep the production where I need it to be but can't find a decent answer for this anywhere online.

Yea, no one really answered this for me either over at the asf forums. I really would like to know the answer... I like to plan ahead.

Maybe people just haven't been breeding them long enough to get a good overall idea on this, Connie but I'm hoping for some idea of the timeline here. My two original females and the male were purchased August 07 and I've noticed them drastically slowing down on the litter production lately.

my original breeders are really slowing down,litter size is getting small.i'm thinking there peak breeding time is 9-12 months.

i've also noticed that smaller groups seem to have bigger litters.1.2 have larger litters than 1.4 in a tub the size of a 10 gal. tank.

nothing scientfic just my observations.any thoughts? have fun !

Our ASF are housed in trios so once they begin to breed they pretty much continously breed through out their life. In our experience their reproductive life is about 1 year sometimes less. If I had to average it I would say 9mths to 1 year. I am sure that the animals will live longer than this but once they start dropping litters of 4 or less we retire them.

We have only been breeding ASF since Nov of 06, so All of our origonal breeding trio's have been retired.

Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by twh

my original breeders are really slowing down,litter size is getting small.i'm thinking there peak breeding time is 9-12 months.

i've also noticed that smaller groups seem to have bigger litters.1.2 have larger litters than 1.4 in a tub the size of a 10 gal. tank.

nothing scientfic just my observations.any thoughts? have fun !

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We do give them more room. Our 10 gallons only house a 1.2, the 1.4's are in old 30 gallon tanks I had lying around. I think if they get overcrowded they likely cull their newborn litters to balance things out. That's just my guess though.

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Originally Posted by kellysballs

Our ASF are housed in trios so once they begin to breed they pretty much continously breed through out their life. In our experience their reproductive life is about 1 year sometimes less. If I had to average it I would say 9mths to 1 year. I am sure that the animals will live longer than this but once they start dropping litters of 4 or less we retire them.

We have only been breeding ASF since Nov of 06, so All of our origonal breeding trio's have been retired.

Hope this helps.

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Thanks, that does help a lot. I think this original trio is just wore out then because they haven't produced a litter in over a month now.

NO idea what the answer to your question is.... but I have read that when the are at the end of their reprodctive life, they turn off like a faucet. in other words all of a sudden they go from there 12 baby litters every 3 weeks to 0.

That's about what's happening with our original trio. They are big and healthy as heck but no babies for awhile now. I'd feed them off but Mike's a bit attached to them so I guess they'll be around for awhile. Actually I'm going to watch them and use them to learn more about the full life cycle of these rats since I've never raised them from birth to natural death.

We really need to draft a good caresheet for these critters. The information online is so all over the place about them. One site I read actually said they make great pets with a good temperment. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

That's about what's happening with our original trio. They are big and healthy as heck but no babies for awhile now. I'd feed them off but Mike's a bit attached to them so I guess they'll be around for awhile. Actually I'm going to watch them and use them to learn more about the full life cycle of these rats since I've never raised them from birth to natural death.

We really need to draft a good caresheet for these critters. The information online is so all over the place about them. One site I read actually said they make great pets with a good temperment. :rolleyes:

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I read that site too lol.

From what I have seen its about 8-12 months... I just had one of my original females die. She was about 1 1/2 years old. I read somewhere because they are in a constant breeding and giving birth if you dont rest them they dont usually survive the 2 years.
My orignal bred male was doing fine but unfortunately became dinner to Kaa.. gave him a weigh in too just to see how big he was. and he was 98 grams. I have another bin that will need to retire shortly as they started to drop to 5-7 babies. And I have 3 bins I am raising up. I just picked up some new lines and colors..

Shadi, I see you are in MI. Mind if I ask where you got your ASF's from since if you're located in southern Michigan I'm not that far away. I'm looking for some new bloodlines to freshen up my ASF's and also albino ones (just for fun really and becuase I like that look).

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Shadi, I see you are in MI. Mind if I ask where you got your ASF's from since if you're located in southern Michigan I'm not that far away. I'm looking for some new bloodlines to freshen up my ASF's and also albino ones (just for fun really and becuase I like that look).

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there are at least 2 breeders that have them for sale at the reptile show in taylor. hooks breeder farms will bring what ever size your looking for to the show if you call them ahead of time, other wise they only have one size there

I've written about this on the other forum, but I've found that there is a period of time where breeding groups "lose their productiveness". I think for me its a year or a little more. On the flip side to those thinking about continuous breeding and stress...I have observed issues with cycling males or just removing them and re-introducing them. These rodents seem to form tight-nit social groups mixing those groups up or even putting back in a male who bred females previously will cause the ladder to be rebuilt from the ground up. I guess you can decide which stress is the lesser of the two "evils". When I started breeding I ran into a worst case scenario trying to do cycling and ended up with a female being injured pretty bad (she made it ok). This female was with the same females all along but the reintroduction of the same male that bred them before turned the ladder upside down....again just my experience.

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Originally Posted by 771subliminal

there are at least 2 breeders that have them for sale at the reptile show in taylor. hooks breeder farms will bring what ever size your looking for to the show if you call them ahead of time, other wise they only have one size there

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I'll have to make time to get over to Taylor then since I cannot find anyone any closer and I'd like to freshen up my gene pool a bit (and get some of those nice albino ones darn it!)

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

I've written about this on the other forum, but I've found that there is a period of time where breeding groups "lose their productiveness". I think for me its a year or a little more. On the flip side to those thinking about continuous breeding and stress...I have observed issues with cycling males or just removing them and re-introducing them. These rodents seem to form tight-nit social groups mixing those groups up or even putting back in a male who bred females previously will cause the ladder to be rebuilt from the ground up. I guess you can decide which stress is the lesser of the two "evils". When I started breeding I ran into a worst case scenario trying to do cycling and ended up with a female being injured pretty bad (she made it ok). This female was with the same females all along but the reintroduction of the same male that bred them before turned the ladder upside down....again just my experience.

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I completely agree with you. I've seen what an established colony will do if a member is out of it for any time at all and even tried to put a half grown female back in with her "parents". No go. They nearly killed her in seconds. My gut instinct here is this is a social structure built around the females, particularily a dominant female and any change in that structure is as you said tearing it down from the ground up causing major fights.

I find it interesting that watching our female ASF's they seem to thrive on highly productive breeding. Instead of becoming thin or worn down by back to back litters, they seem to grow bigger and bigger with each litter. I suspect that their way of communally nursing and raising their litters alleviates any individual female from becoming run down by the demands of that litter. I have noticed a pecking order in the colonies with certain females showing dominance to the others, eating first or most, etc. leading me to believe there is a pecking order at work.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

Shadi, I see you are in MI. Mind if I ask where you got your ASF's from since if you're located in southern Michigan I'm not that far away. I'm looking for some new bloodlines to freshen up my ASF's and also albino ones (just for fun really and becuase I like that look).

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Sorry I just noticed them. I got mine from three different breeders.. One lives over by me. She doesnt breed them for sale but mostly her snakes. I also picked some up from hooks at the Taylor show. Her female produced me awesome numbers and got quite large. I just picked up some more to add in from a third breeder last week. They both just had babies and one litter was 10 and one was 16. Albinos I have seen a couple times at the show but its not a regular occurance. Right now I have blk/grey/white and brindle/white.

I have also noted they are good for about a year then my numbers start dropping. My original breeder from Hooks just passed, she was just over a year, and her numbers really didnt go down much. her last few litters were 8-10 and her number when she started was 15.. They do seem very close as well. They do better if left together all the time and no one being moved around. The males seem to actually help with the babies. they will protect them and also sit with them while the mom eats.

The males, and the older offspring of the colony, often are given babysitting duties it seems. I always find it funny when "dad" is on a pile of little wigglers and they are all trying to nurse off him. Poor rat! LOL They do seem to have a really good natural system worked out though. The really young ones are rarely left without some rat in the colony keeping an eye on them.

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Originally Posted by frankykeno

We really need to draft a good caresheet for these critters. The information online is so all over the place about them. One site I read actually said they make great pets with a good temperment. :rolleyes:

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Joanna,

You may find this useful: http://www.jirds.cwc.net/rag/profiles/nmmr.htm

JoMo,

That is the site most people go off from and the one that has been mentioned NOT citing any references. This was one of the first sites I found when searching for info years ago.

Your efforts are appreciated though!

There is much info on the asf forum, maybe not enough yet to write a full paper on them but something to think about I suppose.

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Originally Posted by JoMo

Joanna,

You may find this useful: http://www.jirds.cwc.net/rag/profiles/nmmr.htm

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or even better.. http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=70828 :)

I just read the care sheet we have here, I still have to contest the ASF = low odor rules...

I smell them after a week, and their odor smells worse than domestic rats IMO after that week has passed. (it wasn't bad when I only had 3 weaners! :P)

It's not a strong over powering odor that can be smelled throughout the rat room, but standing over their tank/tub and it smells nauseating.

Not over crowding, use pine pellets, feed Mazuri, have lots of fresh water... so who else can smell them besides me? I think I'm the only one... :(

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

so who else can smell them besides me? I think I'm the only one... :(

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They have an odor but, by no means do I find it over powering or bad. Their odor is virtually nothing compared to a rat or mouse.
I use aspen bedding, and feed nothing but Harlan Teklad 2018 and a seed mix.

Connie, perhaps you're just sensitive specifically to ASF odor because generally most people don't find them at all "smelly" compared to regular rats or mice. When writing a caresheet one must go on general concepts since it cannot be written to every single person's specifics or situation. It's just a general guideline and a starting point (or should be).

As far as your own reaction to ASF's, I know for instance I'm freaky about the smell of skunk. I'm so sensitive to it I can smell it before anyone else I've ever met. Get too much of a smell of it and I'm literally throwing up like mad. I had a dog once that got nailed by a skunk twice in one summer. I can tell you it was hell for me. I've no idea why I over-react to even a whiff of skunk musk but perhaps that's similar to your experience with ASF's.

Right... I suppose that could be the case. Chris swore he didn't smell anything, I was seriously about ready to puke! LOLz

It's not so much that I think they have high concentration levels of the odor (if that makes sense), but what little odor they do give off smells like something died in there. I dun like it. :(

I know my rats give off HIGH levels of odor, but I don't find it as nauseating as the wee bit the ASF's give off.

I'm weird!! I've come to terms!!!! :nerd:

LOL I know how it is. Even driving down the road and we pass a dead skunk, I'm still whining, streaming tears from my eyes and gagging 20 minutes later. It drives my husband nuts but I just cannot tolerate skunk smell even for a second of exposure time. I figure it's some sort of odd allergy maybe.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Right... I suppose that could be the case. Chris swore he didn't smell anything, I was seriously about ready to puke! LOLz

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You must sensitive to it. If someone else is sniffing the same thing you are they don't it's bad or can't even smell it, then you might be hypersensitive to ASF's.

My father can't smell most roses, they have no odor according to him. :)

I can only really pass on the experience from the breeder I got my starter colonies from , 2.3 ( one male albino )

It does seems to slow after the nine month period ....twelve at most . After this litter sizes dramatically drop off.

Advice I was given was four litters then retire the female. Surplus males also retired at four - five months ( at decent weight ). So I will raise for four months then cull , I will hold back from each different bloodline to replace the '' older '' breeders.

I intend too work with three quads ( 3.9) as my breeding stock . Hopefully that will produce ninety young per month on average . This gives me the option of different sized prey , i.e . smaller ones for nanates , larger for subs and adults. Having just got my first three litters last month ( litter size's of 11 , 8 and 7 ) , I will , in the next week , wean the litters to raising tubs . From this I will hold back 3.9 of the twenty six born. This gives me my breeding group. Every month will be repeated ( i.e hold back 3.9 ) This way ,four months from now I will be replacing the original breeders.

I call it the conveyor belt breeding system :D

I can smell my rats at the end of the week and if its been a particularly hot week the smell may come sooner or be slightly stronger by cleaning day. To us (wife and myself) It still does not compare to a rack full of rats or mice. I wish I could ventilate the room better as I know that would help. I keep a window cracked most days but its a gamble if its going to cause more heat/humidty or if its cooler the heater works more. I have a lot of ideas for our next rodent room but it won't be in this house.

Like others when I started with just a few rats I really did not smell anything at all. Once we where fully changed over and had more numbers is when as I mentioned above by the end of the week you notice something. It seemed like with the regular rats in just a couple days it smelled horrible. Even now with just 1.1 regular rats I would rather put my nose over a tub full of asf rats on day 3 after cleaning than that one rat tub!

I think my soft furs stink horribly.. After maybe 2 days they are starting to get to me.. But I also have come to the realization that they also make me stuffy and most likely I am allergic. As long as I keep them extra clean I dont have an issue though. The mice and regular rats and gerbils dont bug me.. Just the soft furs.