Captive hatched vs. captive bred?

When I bought my BP I thought he was captive bred, but then when returning to the store later I saw his “replacement” was listed as captive hatched, so he probably came from the same source (it was Petsmart) and he maybe captive hatched too. I feel bad now as I realize that is horrible for the wild populations.

But realistically, since BP’s have not been bred that long in captivity, does it make a difference regarding temperament or health? I mean it does not seem as if any BP breeders are working to change temperament anyway (unless one thinks genetic memory may be in play).

If he was from eggs collected in the wild (and I shudder to think of what happened to his poor mother) do they fly the eggs directly to the US and they are incubated and hatched here?

I always go with captive bred. Yours is likely captive hatched. They collect the gravid mothers, and have them lay in their facilities, in Africa. Most of the females are put back into the wild after they have laid. Some are sold to the food and skin market. Once the baby snakes hatch, they are shipped to the U.S. They do not eat or drink in Africa, becasue of parasite issues.

You will definately want to check for mites though, because a lot of snakes from pet stores have mites. You may also want to take him/her to the vet and take a fecal sample so they can check for parasites.

In my opinion, it is best to buy captive bred, for many reasons, but mainly to support the american breeders. Hope this helps, and good luck with you little one. :)

I have not seen any sign of mites, he looks very healthy and i did check the paper towls in his original carrier, it seemed mite free. He also ate well 2 days after I got him.

Thanks for the tip on parasites, I found a local vet that will run a fecal on him, my regular vet doesn't do that but they referred me. I may also call the store and see if they can tell me for sure whether he is captive bred or captive hatched, I was surprised I did not notice it when I bought him but at the time I was focused on him, and just saw the word "captive".

I am surprised the snake people in Africa would release the females back into the wild, it seems like even if the snake was only worth 50 cents as food they would sell it. Do they have fairly decent facilities over there run by educated people?

There aren't many natural predators for bps in the wild anymore as a result they have no problem reproducing in ample numbers. While a large number get exported for the food and pet industry, the people in Africa make sure there are enough adults left in the population to produce for next year. If they wiped out everything their means of producing and making a living in the future would be over.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

...the people in Africa make sure there are enough adults left in the population to produce for next year. If they wiped out everything their means of producing and making a living in the future would be over.

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Uhhh...I don't know about that. Ghana for example is a VERY poor country, they face chronic food shortages in a lot of areas. Those people do not think about "the future" they think about today.

I found out this baby comes from a large reptile producer called Lasco, can't find any company information on them but the guy at petsmart (he was really nice, and really loves bp's) said he thinks they are captive bred, and not captive hatched. I am going to call corporate and see if they can tell me.

I'm pretty sure Petsmart and Petco snakes are all captive hatched. They may have changed that, but that's been the word.

The ball pythons in PetSmart and PetCo are all Captive Hatched. They don't have contracts with private breeders, and I don't know of a breeder that can produce enough babies to supply both chains.

The babies don't know if they were hatched in Africa or in an incubator here - so it makes no difference in temperment.

Some of my prized females are captive hatched - and I love seeing the new interesting captive hatched that come in each year.

Ball pythons are a CITES protected species - and their numbers are closely monitored. Their wild populations are in no danger.

An interesting post regarding this in the past for your reading pleasure:

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...00&postcount=7


from this thread:
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ht=populations

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

I found out this baby comes from a large reptile producer called Lasco, can't find any company information on them but the guy at petsmart (he was really nice, and really loves bp's) said he thinks they are captive bred, and not captive hatched. I am going to call corporate and see if they can tell me.

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Lasco is a distributor.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ighlight=lasco

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...3&postcount=26

Thanks Rabernet, you made me feel better. He seems like a very healthy little guy, but I do not like to support any business that abuses animals.

The Petsmart near me just recently started carrying BP's, at least that is what the cashier said and that makes sense as I rarely go in there but if I had seen them before at that store I probably would have succumbed earlier.

Sonya, Petsmarts in Atlanta just started carrying BP's in the past few months. I actually spent over an hour with the staff at my local PetSmart in Marietta going over their caresheet and making corrections to it, and helping the staff. I like my particular PetSmart, because they DO want to make sure that they are caring for them correctly. They also have my phone number if they have any problems with the ones they are carrying. They even ask me to sex them for them when I come in.

I'm sure if you've reviewed the caresheet here, and have set up your baby properly that he/she will be a lovely animal for years to come! :)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

The babies don't know if they were hatched in Africa or in an incubator here

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Well put Robin!

Personally I do not make a distinction quality wise between ch and cb. In a way I like to have ch's because they represent fresh genetics and who knows what cool traits they MIGHT be hiding!

Justin

I purchased a CH(they told me CB) from a store once that was dehydrated, had mites and ticks. That snake was returned.

I have nothing against CH(I have several in my collection) but I only get them from reputable people/breeders/dealers not stores.

Most in stores have never fed and are housed in large groups. I prefer an animal that is established, eating and has been kept in correct husbandry conditions.

Just to clarify when I said he seems healthy, they are precious sentient beings and once the committment is made health problems are not an issue when it comes to devotion (I have a diabetic cat, and love him more as a result).

And actually after watching some popping videos, if it is a he (the guy at the store said it looked like a he) then well...it is not all that obvious. A vet visit will be in order, for parasites and gender.

Thank god for the internet! It is such a blessing, to ask questions and get the advice of knowledgable people in minutes is truly wonderful.

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Uhhh...I don't know about that. Ghana for example is a VERY poor country, they face chronic food shortages in a lot of areas. Those people do not think about "the future" they think about today.

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Ghana is not the only country bps are found in. Granted the reason they release adults back into the wild probably has more to do with the CITES regulations; every generation thinks about the future. If they didn't there would be no progress and no reason to live.

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Just to clarify when I said he seems healthy, they are precious sentient beings and once the committment is made health problems are not an issue when it comes to devotion (I have a diabetic cat, and love him more as a result).

And actually after watching some popping videos, if it is a he (the guy at the store said it looked like a he) then well...it is not all that obvious. A vet visit will be in order, for parasites and gender.

Thank god for the internet! It is such a blessing, to ask questions and get the advice of knowledgable people in minutes is truly wonderful.

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Sonya - I've got the name of a great herp vet in Marietta if you find that you don't feel your vet is as knowledgeable with herps as you'd like.

I can also sex for you as well. I have one vet that I use for fecal tests and just general wellness, but he can't sex a snake to save his life. I have another vet who's more of a specialist for anything beyond general wellness.

I also had a diabetic cat who I lost last year (to old age).

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Sonya - I've got the name of a great herp vet in Marietta if you find that you don't feel your vet is as knowledgeable with herps as you'd like.

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Well I am actually in Stone Mountain, not Atlanta (but for some reason Atlanta sounds better...haha). I have been referred (by Petsmart and by my regular vets office, and they are quite good) to Avalon Animal Hospital in Lawrenceville. Do you know if they are good? If a vet specializing in exotic animals could not reliably identify the gender I would be very annoyed indeed.

Oh...and sorry to hear about the loss of your cat. Diabetes in cats creates such a tight bond, I know it must be very difficult to lose one.

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Well I am actually in Stone Mountain, not Atlanta (but for some reason Atlanta sounds better...haha). I have been referred (by Petsmart and by my regular vets office, and they are quite good) to Avalon Animal Hospital in Lawrenceville. Do you know if they are good? If a vet specializing in exotic animals could not reliably identify the gender I would be very annoyed indeed.

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I got a referral to the specialist by calling the Atlanta Zoo's reptile department and also contacting the GA Herp Society. I had three different people recommend Dr. Brad Wilson in Marietta.

I don't know the vets in your area, you might try the same strategy to see who they would recommend in your area.

Have you checked these links?

Oftentimes, a clinic that primarily sees dogs and cats will have a vet on staff that also sees the exotics, but they don't see them as frequently as a vet who is a specialist. So, it gets tricky finding one.

http://www.arav.org/Directory.htm

http://www.anapsid.org/vets/index.html#vetlist

Well my regular animal hospital, Gwinnett Animal Hospital, does not work with exotics. The owner/head vet there is quite good, and I suspect he does not allow his staff to work on exotics because they do not specialize in them.

Right now I need to get a fecal done, and they said it must be fresh so that rules out consulting with one of their best docs due to the time constraints. I will drop off the sample and get the results and hopefully he/she will be parasite free. If the fecal comes back positive i will have to take him in for an exam in order to get medicine, and then I will try to schedule with their best doc (whomever that might be).

Are parasites in reptiles similar to canine parasites such as roundworm? Passed from mother to offspring? And if you are offering to identify gender I may want to take you up on that!

No - parasites are not transported from mother to baby. However, if they were allowed to drink any African water before being shipped over - they "could" have internal parasites, and they are generally easily treated. My first ball python tested positive for strongile (sp?) parasites. We treated him with two doses of Panacur - two weeks apart. Fairly inexpensive to treat.

I may be going to Gainesville to see another member here and pick up some rat food and rat bedding from her in a few weeks, maybe we can meet somewhere then. I'll be happy to sex your new baby and also teach you how to do so - because I promise you - you're going to want to get more! Don't fight the feeling! :P

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

There aren't many natural predators for bps in the wild anymore as a result they have no problem reproducing in ample numbers. While a large number get exported for the food and pet industry, the people in Africa make sure there are enough adults left in the population to produce for next year. If they wiped out everything their means of producing and making a living in the future would be over.

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You don't know that.
Most people don't think of the future when they need food or even just want a new radio.

Ahhh...Panacur...well that is not very exotic! Standard procedure for all puppies. Please do let me know when you will be coming south, I don't want to drive the little guy 45 miles as it could cause stress. Maybe there will be a herp show or something as well.

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Originally Posted by snakelady

You don't know that.
Most people don't think of the future when they need food or even just want a new radio.

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Yes well there are a lot of younger people on this site that probably do NOT read that much about world events, foreign politics, or the habits/mindsets of different cultures.

I do not mean to sound judgemental but seriously, a lot of really dark things go on in this world, and in some places human babies mean very little, animals do not warrant even a second thought by the average person in those places.

I'm not going to say its either way as my concrete answer because quite simply I don't live in Ghana to know for sure how people view life. I'm not claiming that life in Africa is easy and that these people don't have immediate hardships to overcome everyday like food, water, or housing. Horrible things happen in Africa whether it be starvation, human rights issues, even the testing of pharaceudical drugs; but to say that they don't think about the future as a result of it is just something I can't fathom. Its a basic human driving force to want to create a better opportunity for the next generation. I understand it may not be easy or even possible for them to provide the better future they picture; but I don't think everyone is walking around without hope, dreams or aspirations for the future, however futile they may be. Its the hope of a better future that help people overcome their day to day hardships.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Its a basic human driving force to want to create a better opportunity for the next generation. I understand it may not be easy or even possible for them to provide the better future they picture; but I don't think eveyone is walking around without hope, dreams or aspirations for the future, however futile they may be. Its the hope of a better future that help people overcome their day to day hardships.

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I agree with you, Spaniard, and I think we also need to account for the fact that long term aspirations come into play once immediate needs are met. What's that saying, "Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal." One of my good friends spent two years teaching high school in an impoverished area in Africa. Somewhere between 25% and 35% of the people there had HIV. The spread of the virus was largely from the fact that many young young women elect to go into the sex trade to make money for themselves and their families.

I couldn't even begin to wrap my head around it. How could so many young women elect that path??? And he explained it to me as a young women did to him "I can either day of starvation this month or die of AIDS 2 years from now", what a terrible reality to have to face.

So, back to the ball python trade, I think you could see the wild populations of these animals being over-caught if the immediate threat of starvation and need for money vastly outweighs the long term threat of putting yourself out of business.

JonV

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Originally Posted by rabernet

No - parasites are not transported from mother to baby.

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This is true except for external parasiters However, that is really an external parasite such as ticks crawling off the mother and crawling onto a freshly hatched baby.

There are some areas of Africa where ball pythons are considered to be sacred animals and are not collected at all.

As for HIV in africa...in some areas many of the condoms are bought by children to make balls.
See film below:

http://www.pangeaday.org/filmDetail.php?id=3

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Its the hope of a better future that help people overcome their day to day hardships.

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Uhh..start researching other continents. You have a good heart, but seriously, not everyone does.

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Originally Posted by Sonya610

Uhh..start researching other continents. You have a good heart, but seriously, not everyone does.

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Ball pythons are collected in a very small portion of land in Ghana.


Africa is a large continent, I find your blanket statements are casting the entirety of it it in a light of very extreme poverty and hardships.

Places of extreme hardship can be found everywhere, but the human spirit does prevail in many places where the hardship is the worst.

I think perhaps this thread is getting derailed a bit.

We've obviously having a different view of opinion on the subject. It has nothing to do with me researching other countries; foreign language and culture is another passion of mine. I'm the son of an immigrant so I do have a clue about hardships in other countries and how people take the steps to rise above it to provide their families with a better future.

Agree to disagree :)

Edit: Sorry for derailing the thread, mostly my fault :) Having a slow day at work :)