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Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Hey all:)
I'm just starting to look into breeding of BP's and although I probably won't start for a while I'd still like to start gathering info.
Now before anyone begins to question my motives I must let you know that I am an avid animal lover (but not the mushy type), I have a great appreciation for the value (not monetary;))that animals can bring to our lives. I also work in the animal industry and come from an family of animal lovers, so I guess you can say it is inbred. What excites me is working with life (be it flora or fauna) and seeing it grow and progress, and as this happens so does my sense of achievement:gj:
After spending some time on this site I've become more and more fascinated with this species and degree of possibility you have when it comes to breeding. I see that a lot of people are striving to breed the next super 'morph', and I find this very exciting but not essential. For me, to be able to breed something that is not the norm, but is not one of a kind, is satisfying enough.
Currently I've got one normal male BP, Samson, who is still young at just about 4 months old. What I want to do is to start to get my head around how things would work if I wanted to breed him to a morph of one kind or another.
Say for example I bred him to an albino, would the babies be 50/50 split normal/albino, with the normals carrying the the gene for albino? A het-albino?
What recommendations would the pro's have out there to breed my male with? just to get the ball rolling so to speak?
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
To get any morph when bred to a normal you will need to use a dominate or co-dominate morph like pastel, spider, pinstripe, cinni ect.
When a normal is bred to a visual recessive gene like albino or clown or hypo all the babys will be 100% het for that gene.
I'd suggest checking this site out
WWW.ballpythons.ca
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
More specifically,
http://www.ballpythons.ca/genetics.html
It turns out, they use an albino in their recessive genetic demo too ;)
http://www.ballpythons.ca/what_get/recessive.html
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
thirded... it depends on the particular morph- so if you still have questions after visiting that link, like if there's a particular morph you have in mind and want to know what you'll get out of breeding it to a normal, there will be all kinds of people to help ;)
As for albinos, if a visual albino is bred to a normal, your offspring will all be the same, they will all be definite (or "100%" confidence) carriers for albinism, though none of them will be albinos
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
so actually....I wonder why they use the spider as their dominant trait, if it's not been proved to be true dominant yet, and there's all this mess about whether or not a homozygous spider exists...
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
OK, so all the babies would be normal looking (Normal x Albino).
Then if I bred a male and female from that clutch they'd all be albino/ or 50/50
I will have a look at those sites a bit later, I'm working right now so only have time to have a quick look at any replies - reading and digesting will come later
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundu Boy
OK, so all the babies would be normal looking (Normal x Albino).
Then if I bred a male and female from that clutch they'd all be albino/ or 50/50
I will have a look at those sites a bit later, I'm working right now so only have time to have a quick look at any replies - reading and digesting will come later
25% albino
25% Normal
50% Het(making the normal looking ones 66% het for albinos)
as I understand it....which ain't sayin' much!
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhBalls
25% albino
25% Normal
50% Het(making the normal looking ones 66% het for albinos)
as I understand it....which ain't sayin' much!
right on :gj:
technically, these aren't percentages for the clutch- as in if you have 4 eggs, it's not promised that you'll have 1 albino, 1 normal, and 2 hets
but rather each EGG has a 25% chance for being normal or albino and 50% chance of being het (really just the difference between a probability and a guarantee:D)
The right way to do it is always to make a Punnett square http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square
NaxNa=
____N___a
N|__NN__Na
a|__Na__aa
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
NaxNa=
____N___a
N|__NN__Na
a|__Na__aa
I'm sure that's what I meant
NN=normal
Na=normal het albino
aa=albino
However, if you bred a normal to an albino and made a lot of het albinos, and then bred one of the hets BACK to the albino parent then you can have a 50% chance each egg will be an albino, and all the normal looking ones will be het for albino
so it's a pretty good deal...you have a male right now...if you were to get your hands on a female albino of breeding age, then those guys will give you hets, then if you get any boys in that clutch, you can breed them back to mom in only a year or so and get pretty good odds
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by soy.lor.n
I wonder why they use the spider as their dominant trait, if it's not been proved to be true dominant yet
The reason is because it's not been shown to have a super form. If one ever appears, it will be re-classified.
The really interesting debate has yet to come up, which is how you know which gene a particular co-dominant morph resides on. There very well could be a number of double-co-dominant supers that simply cannot exist because the different "morphs" are just mutated alleles of the same gene, and thus cannot appear homozygous in the same animal together.
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctrlfreq
The reason is because it's not been shown to have a super form. If one ever appears, it will be re-classified.
The really interesting debate has yet to come up, which is how you know which gene a particular co-dominant morph resides on. There very well could be a number of double-co-dominant supers that simply cannot exist because the different "morphs" are just mutated alleles of the same gene, and thus cannot appear homozygous in the same animal together.
I just meant for the example on that website...why not use something that has been proved dominant
I mean, it doesn't matter really...
That is an interesting point...I'm all into thinking about all kinds of weird things that could happen with genetics
it's always easier though to make things happen when you're selectively breeding (clearly not what you're saying, but I mean things like crossover and other random chance kind of things)
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by soy.lor.n
I just meant for the example on that website...why not use something that has been proved dominant
I don't believe there is a way to truly prove a morph to be dominant without a BP genome map, which we don't have. It's the same way we consider all co-dom morphs to be distinct, when it's possible a number of them may just be different mutations of the same gene (like flower petal colors).
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundu Boy
OK, so all the babies would be normal looking (Normal x Albino).
Then if I bred a male and female from that clutch they'd all be albino/ or 50/50
I will have a look at those sites a bit later, I'm working right now so only have time to have a quick look at any replies - reading and digesting will come later
If you breed your normal male to a female albino I would recommend you to hold back one of the male offspring and breed him back to mom this way you would produce 50% Albino and 50% Het Albino.
This would take less time and it would also give you better odds compare to your original idea of breeding sibling together!
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctrlfreq
I don't believe there is a way to truly prove a morph to be dominant without a BP genome map, which we don't have. It's the same way we consider all co-dom morphs to be distinct, when it's possible a number of them may just be different mutations of the same gene (like flower petal colors).
yeah I kind of felt that way too, but that website said that it would probably be proved soon, and they really only mentioned that spiders weren't proved dominant
plus I've heard lots of people say that it's believed that homozygous spiders are unable to survive, but I don't know what the real deal is with that
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Shew, now you guys are getting heavy!:O
I gotta start reading up on this some more
I like Deborah's post,:gj: Layman is my friend at the moment. So would that principle be the same with breeding a normal male to any morph?
Normal male bred to morph female, keep a baby boy and breed with the mum to get 50% morph / 50% Het...
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundu Boy
Shew, now you guys are getting heavy!:O
I gotta start reading up on this some more
I like Deborah's post,:gj: Layman is my friend at the moment. So would that principle be the same with breeding a normal male to any morph?
Normal male bred to morph female, keep a baby boy and breed with the mum to get 50% morph / 50% Het...
no ;)
you should read that link that was posted earlier. Like I said before, it depends on the specific morph. So if you have a question about what you get if you breed any particular morph, then you should ask and we'll help you out.
It's hard at first to figure out which morphs are recessive, dominant, or co-dominant
and then if you throw combos in there it's even worse!
that said, if you breed a normal with a visual recessive morph animal (doesn't matter which sex is which) then you get 100% hets
if you breed a recessive het to a visual recessive morph (for the same trait, of course) then you get 50% chance for the morph and 50% chance for normals in each clutch (doesn't matter what relation the parents are to each other- all that matters is that they have compatible genes, although inbreeding over many generations can cause problems)
again, I recommend you read that link posted on the first page, and also the one I posted about the punnett square, because if you learn that, you'll know how to figure it all out yourself
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
here, this is really good for explaining how to do the punnet squares
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html
keep in mind that, for snakes, if the trait is recessive, it only shows up if the gene is aa
if the trait is dominant, it shows up for NA or AA (that's why it's called dominant, because it dominates over the normal gene)
and if it's co-dominant it shows up for NA but shows up as a *super* for AA (so that's like pastel vs super pastel)
also I'll just refer you to all three of the first threads here lol http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/f...splay.php?f=64
that's where I started, so it's coming highly recommended
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Gotcha Soy
You'll have to bare with me on this. I've only right now had a chance to look at that Markus Jayne site, so you'll forgive me if I'm still trying to understand the basics.:colbert:
You mention specific Morphs - I see that these depend on the gene type, Recessive, Co-Dominant, or Dominant. So depending on the morph type would determine the offspring variation...
I'm gonna read through the Genetics 1 on 1:gj:
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bundu Boy
Gotcha Soy
You'll have to bare with me on this. I've only right now had a chance to look at that Markus Jayne site, so you'll forgive me if I'm still trying to understand the basics.:colbert:
You mention specific Morphs - I see that these depend on the gene type, Recessive, Co-Dominant, or Dominant. So depending on the morph type would determine the offspring variation...
I'm gonna read through the Genetics 1 on 1:gj:
no problem, I'm just glad you're taking the time to learn!
I know I have a tendency a) to be sarcastic and b) to be longwinded lol
so don't think I'm getting frustrated or being rude or anything, I don't mean to be!
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Re: Breeding with a Normal BP + Other
No sweat...
I've dealt with people a lot more sarcastic and longwinded ;)and I don't suffer fools gladly myself very often so I can relate:cool:
I'll be bck with more q's to keep this thread going.... till then keep on :banana:
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