something that has been bothering me lately.....

I have noticed lately that there are alot of threads popping up where people are asking questions about their set-up or why their herp is behaving a certain way, and then when a more experienced member tells them what they are doing wrong and how to correct it, the original poster gets rude and makes unnecessary comments. I dont think this is the right way to get people to help you improve your husbandry or get your herp back to health. Remember, this site is here to help and people give advice in their free time, so please dont take it for granted. There is no point in being rude to someone who is trying to help. If you dont want to take someone's advice thats fine just please treat everyone respectfully.


Just my two cents.....

I was kinda like that at first too. Sucks being wrong! lol!

It doesn't suck being wrong- it sucks STAYING wrong!!!! It's fine to not know things and it's normal to err. Big deal. The travesty is when a keeper asks for help and then ignores it or justifies their incorrectness :O
Go figure.

Let's be devils advocate for a second here:

How many people here like to be told they are wrong? COMPLETELY and utterly wrong???

Most people get on the defensive, thinking that they were not THAT bad off, and therefore come off as rude to the people trying to help.

I'm sure it happens to the best of us, and I know it has happened to me on a few occasions.

No one knows everything. People are here to learn, and hopfully take the advice given without much offense.

Teach a man to fish....

Agreed

Judy said it perfectly in this statement that is stickied all over this site.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=62494

Coming here to learn about caring for your snakes includes accepting that you need that help (or why else ask the question in the first place). It means the snake's needs are more important than your ego. It means taking in a lot of information, shifting through it all, validating it and doing your own research too. Learning isn't about being spoonfed but it also isn't about being rude to those that take time to try and help.

It also means, however, that in giving out that information we present it in a way that it can be listened to. No one wants to hear "you idiot you've done it all wrong!". I know I certainly wouldn't listen much after that point. As much as we want new people to listen, we need to make sure we are "talking" in a way people want to listen to and can learn from. :)

...alot of times the advice is given by people who have little experience and are just regurging up what others with more experience have said....

....If I was a new keeper and was told I was wrong by a person that did not know what the hell they were doing a month ago....I would be kinda irritated too.

....and most people feel threatened when they are about to get run over by the bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

...alot of times the advice is given by people who have little experience and are just regurging up what others with more experience have said....

....If I was a new keeper and was told I was wrong by a person that did not know what the hell they were doing a month ago....I would be kinda irritated too.

....and most people feel threatened when they are about to get run over by the bandwagon.

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This is a really good post (damn your a smart man Daniel, a smart man!) and I think that it is true right to the tee.

If someone just reads the experience, but does not live the experience, what right does he have to talk about it.

Not bashin on anyone, but new people join here all the time, and ask simple basic husbandry questions, then the next week are answering questions for other people, on "advanced" topics.

I dont know, its a two sided coin, maybe these new people are super fast learners.

it must have been a typo a typo a typo, it must have been a typo it cant be true!!!

I believe I know more than the average person does about snakes- but I fully and happily admit that some things baffle me. Like the other day I asked a very basic level question (how long to leave live prey before removing it from a reluctant eater- I knew not longer than half an hour or so, but I wanted some opinions). I'd simply never had a poor eater before. BTW she did eat finally the next day... the secret was leaving the room.

All that said, I would never pretend to know jack about breeding BPs. Since breeding is my goal, I am here to learn, and I have no doubt I will make mistakes, ask 'stupid' questions, and so forth.

I do know my stuff with dogs, and on dog forums am often one of the resident "know it alls" and I try very hard to be kind to beginners. Breeding dogs is frowned upon highly (unlike breeding snakes) and many "experts" attack new would be dog breeders, only to turn them away forever. This saddens me deeply. Too many think my willingness to befriend and help a would be dog breeder means I support their breeding poor quality dogs. Not so... I simply know that I will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar as the saying goes. I imagine it's not so different here... a little kindness goes a long way. At the same time- forget your pride for a few and accept that we all know you wouldn't purposely harm your animals, and we just want to help with advice that has worked for our own much loved animals.

Very good points Daniel. That's why I push the whole "validate, validate, validate" thing. I now when I first came here that I didn't know you people from Adam (as the saying goes LOL). I wasn't sure who to listen to so I developed this funny habit I still use to this day.

When I get new information from somebody or on a website I go looking for at least 2 or 3 other independent sources that say pretty much the same thing (maybe not exactly the same but close enough for comfort). I've never been comfortable just nodding and agreeing with anybody without first checking the information and that person out. I've never hopefully come off as disrespectful but it's how I am - I need to really KNOW that what I'm told is the right information to follow by someone who actually knows their stuff.

I think if a person doesn't validate what they take in, then there's no one to blame but themselves if something goes wrong. The flip side to that of course is that being an "insta-online-expert" can be a damned dangerous thing. People ought to just slow down I think and not expect an instant answer without any work on their part or they may well get an instant expert response. :(

Well, I can totally understand if that new person with a few months under their belt was told the exact same things they are now telling other newbies because they had issues and they dealt with them!

How do we know it's all regurged info? I've watched many new people come and go in the year I've been here, and how many have dealt with the same problems? A lot!

Why should anyone giving good sound basic advice have to validate their "experience" or just keep their mouths shut? Who knows if they've tangled with the same issues?

I think it's wrong to think only people with so many years/months of experience is the only one worthy of giving advice. Sometimes, its the newbies who have their trial and errors still fresh in their mind and can understand the frustrations of the new keeper better than some old pros can.


I dealt with some major husbandry issues, and using my own trial and error and advice from this forum, was able to get my tank settled pretty nicely, but later on decided to switch to tubs when our "family" expanded. Did I let other new people know what exactly worked for me and how to do it themselves??? Heck ya I did!

Just because some of it is regurged info doesn't necessarily mean the basics are wrong.

I think a lot of the time it's the tone we set in a thread. I know how difficult it is to not offend someone new to forums, and sometimes they are used to the feel of another forum where flaming and harsh insulting responses are common. We need to remember that.

I find this is an issue on every forum I've been a member of.

People have to realize that by even asking a question, they already are testifying to their ignorance on that matter. I'll agree with LadyOh in that no one really enjoys being told they're wrong, but part of it is in the delivery. I've seen some newbies get totally flamed and bashed for making a very small error in their husbandry (I've been guilty of it myself in earlier years).

But I do get irritated when people ask for help, receive good advice and then choose not to use it. This is a clear definition of stupidity in my book: a conscious decision to choose not to implement wisdom and knowledge.

I also do get perturbed when people with no experience on a matter claim to be "experts". When I give advice, I try to start off with a disclaimer, somthing to the effect of, "Well, this is just what I've heard~" or "My experience has been~" or "I'm no ___ expert but this is what I know~".....just to make sure people can take what I say with a grain of salt.

Good point to bring up; I don't think some people on here appreciate the help others try to offer and are often disrespectful to the person who has gone out of their way to offer it in the first place. On another note, I think it's a good thing to remind ourselves that we were ALL new at one point, whether it be last week or years ago, and try to relate to those who are going through it currently. (And by no means am I saying I'm not "new" anymore; I've had BPs for only a year now and am fully aware that I have LOADS left to learn. That's exactly why I'm here.)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well, I can totally understand if that new person with a few months under their belt was told the exact same things they are now telling other newbies because they had issues and they dealt with them!

How do we know it's all regurged info? I've watched many new people come and go in the year I've been here, and how many have dealt with the same problems? A lot!

Why should anyone giving good sound basic advice have to validate their "experience" or just keep their mouths shut? Who knows if they've tangled with the same issues?

I think it's wrong to think only people with so many years/months of experience is the only one worthy of giving advice. Sometimes, its the newbies who have their trial and errors still fresh in their mind and can understand the frustrations of the new keeper better than some old pros can.

I dealt with some major husbandry issues, and using my own trial and error and advice from this forum, was able to get my tank settled pretty nicely, but later one decided to switch to tubs when our "family" expanded. Did I let other new people know what exactly worked for me and how to do it themselves??? Heck ya I did!

Just because some of it is regurged info doesn't necessarily mean the basics are wrong.

I think a lot of the time it's the tone we set in a thread. I know how difficult it is to not offend someone new to forums, and sometimes they are used to the feel of another forum where flaming and harsh insulting responses are common. We need to remember that.

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You are talking about discussing your own experiences....I am talking regurgitation of others experiences. I can explain the difference if you like.

In most situations, the problem does not arise from keepers (new or old) giving sound advice. The problem comes from keepers giving sound advice without knowing the concepts behind the advice. Speaking from experience never hurts anyone and is very beneficial to the community. Speaking like yours or someone else's experience is the 'word of god' can be offensive and hurtful.

This 'set in stone' approach to distributing reptile care information is the deterant. Saying "You have to do it like this" and "You have the choice to do it like this, this, and this" are completely different.

I agree with the 'tone' statement. That is something that is lost with internet communication and leads to tons of misunderstandings. Facial expression and tone of voice are hard to type ;)

Alright I see your point, I was thinking you meant someone that has had a snake for a little time cannot retell what they were told to fix their own problems. Like it was automaticly regurged, but I was reading it differently than what you meant.

I understand what your saying now (silly written form of communication!), I have found that many fairly new people to the site are the ones that seem to go overkill when brand new people are seeking advice. Almost to the point of harassment with their "advice", sometimes they do beat the horse.

People do need to realize that this is a hobby and not a science. There is more than one right way to go about do things.

For instance, I've kept several leopard geckos on sand for years and have never had any problems (of course I feed outsde the cage). Likewise, I personally hate repti-carpet with a passion. However, its not fair for me to tell everyone that they must use sand always and never use carpet. What works for me may nto work for everyone. Many people out there need to remember that when it comes to giving advice.

I'm one of those people that does not have tons of experience, but I will post replies to people asking questions where I am basically just regurging what others have said. To clarify, this does not represent the majority of my posts by any means, but I have done it.

I don't think I'm one of the people that are being referred to though, because I do try to be very careful about how I do it. For one thing, although I don't have years of experience with hundreds of BPs, I do have experience with a wide variety of animals, and some of that applies. I have researched the topic of BPs quite a bit. I have a very good memory for what I have read, so I am unlikely to have read something, misremember it, and then post incorrect advice. If I have any doubts, I either don't post, say in my post I'm not sure, and/or go check (and post a link showing where I got the info if it applies). I also pay attention to the source when I am reading, and keep a vague count of how many times I've seen something posted, so I won't end up regurging something that was said one time by a clueless newbie.

Most importantly, when I'm posting about stuff I don't have personal experience with, I try to make that clear with phrases like "I don't have experience with this myself, but most people recommend..."

While I agree 100% that book learning (or forum learning as the case may be) is not the same as learning from experience, I don't believe that makes it invalid. Daniel makes an excellent point about giving advice without knowing the concepts behind the advice. However, I think it is equally possible to knows something works because you've done it, but still not know WHY it works, and it is to have heard something works, but not know why it works. And, depending on where a person read a particular thing, the concept behind it may have been fully explained.

Many newbies can be "dangerous" (using it in quotes because I'm not referring only to stuff that would actually be dangerous to a snake, but also just misinformation) by acting as if they are experts when answering a question that they themselves were asking a week ago. However, as Connie pointed out, if they have just gone through this particular problem (like getting humidity up in a glass tank, for example), they may in some ways be better equipped to answer the question than someone who hasn't had a BP in a glass tank for years. It would be better if they made it clear in their post "hey I just fixed that problem last week, here's how I did it", but even if they omit that part, it doesn't invalidate what they have to say. Sometimes I've seen some of the very experienced keepers post things that could be "dangerous" because they meant it as a joke and to them it was obvious it wasn't meant seriously. But to a newbie, it might not be so obvious.

I also feel there is an advantage to relative newbies answering some basic questions. Let's be honest, everyone gets tired of answering the same questions over and over again. And also, no matter how many FAQs are posted, there will still be people who ask the questions, and/or need help with fine tuning something. So if a relative newbie gives a good answer and saves someone else the trouble, that's a good thing. The more experienced people will be left with more time to help with the more difficult questions.

To get back to the original point of this thread, it is unfortunately mostly pointless because there will always be people who will ask for advice, then react defensively if it isn't what they wanted to hear and ignore it. And more than 99% of the ones who will do that on this site will never see this thread. It is making for an excellent discussion though.

I think the best we can do, as the bp.net community, is to be as careful as is reasonably possible with the tone of our replies. I believe I've seen somewhere a sort of mission statement for bp.net that says that first and foremost this is supposed to be a site about helping newbies educate themselves in how to care for their snakes. So we should start with the assumption that anyone posting is a newbie who doesn't know better, but does want to learn to take care of their snake in the best possible way. Of course, that won't always turn out to be true, but start with that assumption.

This will cut down on the newbie being overwhelmed with posts that can sometimes come across as "you are an idiot, you shouldn't be doing that", and will instead tend to make the replies they get have a friendlier, more helpful tone. Also when the newbie replies saying "why can't I do that?" it will help us read it in the tone of an honest question seeking information instead of a hostile or defensive tone which may mean something closer to "I'm going to do it anyway".

Whoops! Didn't realize how long this had gotten until I saw it posted.

Everyone has covered this topic incredibly well IMO. Sometimes I feel like I am full of myself telling new members or others "this is what I have done" but all in all, its much better than saying, "this is what you need to do". I am still very new myself and often do repeat the same, very basic information over and over again, which I think is regurgitated information - but not a bad thing.

When I can get opinions or tips from the veterans, I am thrilled, but that isn't always who is online when I have a question (similar to a new member). And just because someone is a new member doesn’t mean they don’t have plenty of experience already.

I think the bad side of regurgitating information is when it has not been used or tested by those who are giving it. Basically, my advice stops at basic set-up and husbandry. If I give advice on anything else, I always make it known that I have not been in the situation personally and to see what others have to say.

When I first joined, I thought I had everything right. When I was told I had it quite wrong - well of course I was defensive, but luckily I smartened up. I am sorry if I have repeated others, but I think these are good points.

Connie, I couldn't agree with you more, but I can't give you anymore rep points;)

I love BP.net; this site was one of my primary sources of information in the time leading up to bringing Auryn home. It's a wonderful community with helpful people in it; I'm very grateful for each and every person who took time out of their lives to offer advice/encouragement/comments/critiques when I post. That said, before I brought Auryn home I did a LOT of research, and not just at BP.net. I read multiple housing set-ups on many websites: breeders, independent owners' care sheets, BP.net, etc. I also spoke to the breeder I was purchasing from and ran my potential setup by her before I brought him home.

I think it's important with husbandry to get a variety of perspectives and to go from there. It is the sole responsibility of a potential snake owner to do the research before buying a pet. If that doesn't occur and he/she comes to a place like BP.net to get information, he/she should be willing to take any criticism graciously. He/she should also rectify the lack of research prior to purchase by doing some research on his/her own. Many questions asked on the forum have been answered already (the "search" function on the site is great), and Google is most excellent when one wants to get comparative information.

Just my .02 :)

Saddly the world we live in is changing so fast. This rude side of people we are seeing is just a part of our changing world. The other day I thanked a young woman for handing me my food at a drive-through and she just turned away without so much as a word.

And last week I went to my local Wal-Mart and the greeter got all pissed at me because I walked in between her and her friend who she was having a conversation with. Nearly every day I am shocked at the new level of rude I experience. I guess we just need to adjust to it.

Great replies all! I agree 100% with everyone, I am just tired of seeing people answer questions and then get rude responses back. I think we can all agree the most important thing is to do your research before purchasing and make sure you have everything set-up as best you can for your new friend. After all, the animal is what matters!

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Originally Posted by Jenn

Saddly the world we live in is changing so fast. This rude side of people we are seeing is just a part of our changing world. The other day I thanked a young woman for handing me my food at a drive-through and she just turned away without so much as a word.

And last week I went to my local Wal-Mart and the greeter got all pissed at me because I walked in between her and her friend who she was having a conversation with. Nearly every day I am shocked at the new level of rude I experience. I guess we just need to adjust to it.

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You say that the world we are living in is changing fast......I stick with the same ol' story...

Those that are loud and rude stick in our minds while those that are quite and kind are generally overlooked.....

With this discussion topic.......We may get a few rude new members every now and then.....but it seems we get alot of nice people too :)

......the rude people earned a thread and discussion........the nice people just continue their business as usual ;)

Someone should create a new thread thanking all the contributing, nice new members!!!

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

You say that the world we are living in is changing fast......I stick with the same ol' story...

Those that are loud and rude stick in our minds while those that are quite and kind are generally overlooked.....

With this discussion topic.......We may get a few rude new members every now and then.....but it seems we get alot of nice people too :)

......the rude people earned a thread and discussion........the nice people just continue their business as usual ;)

Someone should create a new thread thanking all the contributing, nice new members!!!

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agreed!!!! thank gosh for nice people! lol