Big time breeders vs. Small time Breeders

After buying my second BP I know I may not be the authority on this but this is a free country so I have the right to voice my opinion (within reason). I think I prefer dealing with small time breeder more than big time breeders. It has been my experience that they seem to do a much better job of answering the phone, returning emails, and they seem to be less strict about prices and will work with you.

This stems from my most recent experience looking for a nice female pastel. I tried contacting a certain big time breeder in SE michigan area multiple times and found it extremely difficult to get a hold of him. I called his business once a day for about a week straight and not a single time did someone answer the phone. I left several voicemail messages and no one called me back. I had to message him on myspace before I ever heard anything from him. He said they had one female pastel left and I asked him to send me a picture to my email address and he never sent it. When I finally did an email from him it was a response to something I filled out on his contact me page the first time I every visited his website. By then he said they were out of female pastels.

I continued my search and was able to get what I was looking for from a small time breeder in cali. Would have preffered to have purchased locally in michigan but we will see how delivery goes later this week. My communication with this breeder was excellent and she sent me several picture of the snake along with a pic of the mother.

Here are definitions of Small time and Big time:

Small time= Breeding snake is not their main source of income or it is part of another business that they own. They take care of all of their snake or at most have one other person helping them. They usually have a snake room in their house and not huge facility.

Big time= breeding snakes are there only source of income (not including those who have retired from other jobs). Have a staff of 4 or more people. Have Huge breeding facilities the size of a small department store.

So what type of breeder do you prefer to deal with?

I deal with both I have bought from both big BIG breeders and some that are like me working out of their home.

The biggest turn off for me was also the not getting back with me on animals that I was looking for. I can say that I have never had a problem getting 8Ball, EbN, NERD, Jasballs, Bailey&Bailey, or VPI to return my emails or calls and they are always helpful. I do understand the busy schedules and am very patient because of this. But I can say that the breeders I have named above have some of if not the best quality animals I have seen and also are top notch at getting back with customers.

Doesn't matter to me, but customer service is key. I won't even give someone the time of day if they give me the phone/email tag run around. I shouldn't have to work to buy something when I'm waving a wad of cash around.

I'll give a feel in my emails and if I don't hear back within a few days (less than a week) I won't even bother. So far, it's been pretty good!

It's my opinion that you are generalizing and stereotyping a great deal based on your one experience. :oops:

I have done business with NERD, a huge facility and huge and renowned breeders and creators of crazy ball python morphs (among others species). Even though they are very large breeders, I have found them to be nothing less than excellent in their customer communication, customer care, and quality of snakes. :gj: I have also dealt with medium breeders (8Ball) with the same quality care that I received from big breeder NERD and with the same quality snakes and with comparable pricing. :gj: I have also dealt with a smaller breeder and again, excellent care and excellent product. :gj:

I am sorry that you received no response for an entire week and that the lack of customer service went downhill from there. :(

However, I think each customer has a different definition of service. For me, I understand that I am not the only person in the world who is contacting the breeder and if I don't receive an email or phone call back, I will try again. If I get tired of waiting for a response, I chalk it up to the breeder being out of town, really busy, or something outside of what they can control. I find it very dysfunctional thinking to believe that they are bad breeders or uncaring breeders or breeders who wish to go out of business. I prefer to regard the situation as something that is just not working out this time and so I turn to someone else. It's really no big deal and certainly not deserving of any big drama! ;)

So, obviously, I am unable to mark a box in your poll. I feel that any breeder worth their salt tends to the snakes first and then the customer. I understand that emails get lost and servers crash. I understand that phone calls are missed. I understand that there might be family to care for. For me, dealing with this species of snake, the size of the breeding facility matters not. :rolleyes:

Just my two cents :P

I'm all about customer service, big time or small time. I have attempted to deal with NERD at one point only to have phone calls not returned and emails not responsed too. I have heard this story numerous times about NERD as well. I gave up and went else where. Smaller breeders to me usually have better prices and better customer service, so that is who I've dealt with.

All my snakes are healthy eating well and too me my spider looks just as good if not better than something I would have gotten from a big breeder and I paid probably half the price of a big breeder. Support the small guys. :gj:

Big or small...I really hate it when they don't answer their emails.
If they have a website they should answer emails. There are several bigs that have never answered my emails. Or answered the first one and then when I ask for a picture of said snake I never hear from them again. Even after several reminder "would like picture" emails from me.

Piss me off! :mad:

Customer service really matters to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Doesn't matter to me, but customer service is key. I won't even give someone the time of day if they give me the phone/email tag run around. I shouldn't have to work to buy something when I'm waving a wad of cash around.

I'll give a feel in my emails and if I don't hear back within a few days (less than a week) I won't even bother. So far, it's been pretty good!

---

I totally agree. I should not have to chase any one around to give them my money. I have had that happen with both kinds of breeders and I think the more animals you buy from different people you will run into all kinds of craziness. Great animals, bad shipping. okay animals, great customer service. There are a lot of variables and I have only come across two people that I would ever buy from again out of the five I have dealt with. This market is growing far to fast and there is so much stuff out there that a missed phone call or email could cost you business from that person for ever. Bad news travels fast in this business.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by starmom

It's my opinion that you are generalizing and stereotyping a great deal based on your one experience. :oops:

---

I agree that I may be making some generalizations which is which created this thread so I could get a sense if I am the only one who feels this way.

I would never question the quality of the snakes that these breeders have without actually seeing them. To me this thread is more focused on the customer service aspect of things. When you are trying to sell a product you should keeping your customers waiting especially when the product ( pastel bp) is not exclusive to your business. For example if I wanted a super phantom from Ralph Davis, he could give me all the run around he wants to, because he is pretty much the only person who sells them.

Either is ok when all goes well but in the event that something goes wrong with the transaction, you are probably better off with the "big" breeder because they have much more to lose as far as their reputation goes, whereas a small-time breeder may be less able to make special concessions if something goes wrong outside of their control.

I like to hear stories about breeders going above and beyond to replace animals that have died or send snakes to people that are down on their luck, but a small-time breeder probably wouldn't even have the stock to be able to rectify a situation like that.

If I'm buying Hets or spending more than $1000, I'm definitely going to buy from a legitimate professional breeder. In dealing with live animals, there's just too many things that can go wrong, too many scammers, and too many fly-by-nighters in this hobby for me to trust a no-name with any substancial sum of money.

In my opinion it comes down to the holy trinity- quality, customer service and price. A small or big time breeder could either fit the bill or fall short as far as getting my money is concerned but I would have to feel right about the combination of those factors.

Excellent post McKinsey! I'm very much in agreement with you.

While I believe and will strive as a small time breeder to give the best possible customer service, I do as a person understand the demands and craziness of a business that has grown large. Rather than dismiss a breeder due to poor communications I might let them know my concerns as the actual owner may not be the one sorting emails or responsible for answering/directing incoming phone calls. There may be an employee issue going on or a miscommunication in their business that a polite reminder could help them be more aware of.

I'm also never in much hurry when it comes to buying a snake so if I have to wait, I'll wait. I prefer fast customer service but I also know a slick fast answer isn't always the mark of a good person. Since Mike and I prefer to have long term relationships with the breeders we work with, waiting a week or so for a picture or whatever, isn't that big of a deal for us. We're not going to just quickly buy any snake from anybody anyways so for us, time isn't that much of a concern in the greater scheme of things.

As far as big breeders vs small breeders, again it makes no difference to Mike and I. Who that person is, their passion for what they do, the quality of the snakes they produce, their reputation and willingness to be there long after the sale, building a business relationship and if we're lucky, even a friendship - for our family that's what counts more than the number of snakes somebody happens to feed weekly.

I tend to take their schedules into consideration if I have a hard time contacting someone. If I call and leave a message and they are in Texas at a big show then I don't expect a call back right away. I know that the large breeder in Michigan answers his myspace immediately. I had no problems dealing with them or VPI recently and questions and pics were answered and sent to me right away. I don't think anyone would question their passion for the animals and the hobby, but sometimes they get swamped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Rather than dismiss a breeder due to poor communications I might let them know my concerns as the actual owner may not be the one sorting emails or responsible for answering/directing incoming phone calls. There may be an employee issue going on or a miscommunication in their business that a polite reminder could help them be more aware of.

---

Excellent points if you can get through to the owner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

I'm also never in much hurry when it comes to buying a snake so if I have to wait, I'll wait. I prefer fast customer service but I also know a slick fast answer isn't always the mark of a good person. Since Mike and I prefer to have long term relationships with the breeders we work with, waiting a week or so for a picture or whatever, isn't that big of a deal for us.

---

but when the week turns into never. That hurts business.

I voted that it doesn't matter, as I have bought from the very small, to the very large. I will say that typically the way it works for me, is to buy from a big breeder when I am at a show, since it is easy to communicate, and they tend to have a selection that allows me to pick anything that I want. However, when I am doing a sale via the phone or internet, I typically go with a smaller breeder, as they do have more time to comminucate in a quick manner (I am very impatient). That is just how we have tended to do it for the last few years.

I've never chosen to by from a 'large' breeder though I have inquired on animals at NERD a few times.
I did have an experience with a larger breeder though. I'd inquired about some animals of theirs and while they did respond and were polite over a month later I still had no information or pictures so I gave up. I've seen people successfully get photos and animals from them after this but honestly I probably won't attempt to purchase from them again.
I am not truly picky but after thinking back most of my animals have been purchased from small breeders. Adam is probably the largest I've purchased from.

I go with whoever has the best looking snake ... I dont care if its big timer or lil dude who has 2 clutches a year... Ive been jerked around and Ive had 2 email sales... Its your choice who your money goes to so give it to whomever treats you the best... With technology today it takes like 2 seconds for someone to take a picture and upload it on the computer... I understand people have lives and stuff too do but when youre selling something you should get back to people in a timely manner...

My question is if your selling a snake... people want to see pictures... why wouldnt you take like 10 pictures of the snake(s) for sale and put them on your computer?? This way when someone comes and says can you send me pics its like a 2 second process... I understand some people have like 100's of snakes for sale and thats a little much to expect/ask for but the majority of breeders arent huge. I know this is what I plan on doing when I have babies for sale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshJP7

I go with whoever has the best looking snake ... I dont care if its big timer or lil dude who has 2 clutches a year... Ive been jerked around and Ive had 2 email sales... Its your choice who your money goes to so give it to whomever treats you the best... With technology today it takes like 2 seconds for someone to take a picture and upload it on the computer... I understand people have lives and stuff too do but when youre selling something you should get back to people in a timely manner...

My question is if your selling a snake... people want to see pictures... why wouldnt you take like 10 pictures of the snake(s) for sale and put them on your computer?? This way when someone comes and says can you send me pics its like a 2 second process... I understand some people have like 100's of snakes for sale and thats a little much to expect/ask for but the majority of breeders arent huge. I know this is what I plan on doing when I have babies for sale.

---

That is partly why I liked my experience with the smaller breeder. She sent me 5 pictures of the snake. One of them she took within an hour of replying to my email. She also sent me a pic of her mom. (can be seen in my thread under BP pics. I think the thread title is Pastle female coming this week.)

I shop the person and the snake not the size of the operation.

I have dealt with both and will likely continue to do so in the future.

You can't generalize based on a one-time experience!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

You can't generalize based on a one-time experience!

---

NOTE:
When I started this thread I did not make any generalizations. I only talked about my one-time experience, but that doesn't mean I will never turn to a large breeder like NERD in the future. I have no experiences, good or bad, with him. Especially I am spending a lot of money. If the price is already over $1200 why not spend the extra $200 for something from a big name breeder.

I would like to say though that people make generalizations on one-time experiences all the time. For example, if I were to go to my local Home Depot and no one offered to help me and when I did find someone to answer my questions, they couldn't, I wouldn't go back there again. I would look for a Lowe's.

But there are generalizations that are pretty safe to make about large and small breeders.
1. Larger breeders are more likely to have a bigger stock of what you are looking for.
2. They are also more insulated from the hazards of the business, such as death on arrival.
3. Probably have enough space to hold on to snakes that don't sell as fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikedahitman87

After buying my second BP I know I may not be the authority on this but this is a free country so I have the right to voice my opinion (within reason). I think I prefer dealing with small time breeder more than big time breeders. It has been my experience that they seem to do a much better job of answering the phone, returning emails, and they seem to be less strict about prices and will work with you.

This stems from my most recent experience looking for a nice female pastel. I tried contacting a certain big time breeder in SE michigan area multiple times and found it extremely difficult to get a hold of him. I called his business once a day for about a week straight and not a single time did someone answer the phone. I left several voicemail messages and no one called me back. I had to message him on myspace before I ever heard anything from him. He said they had one female pastel left and I asked him to send me a picture to my email address and he never sent it. When I finally did an email from him it was a response to something I filled out on his contact me page the first time I every visited his website. By then he said they were out of female pastels.

I continued my search and was able to get what I was looking for from a small time breeder in cali. Would have preffered to have purchased locally in michigan but we will see how delivery goes later this week. My communication with this breeder was excellent and she sent me several picture of the snake along with a pic of the mother.

Here are definitions of Small time and Big time:

Small time= Breeding snake is not their main source of income or it is part of another business that they own. They take care of all of their snake or at most have one other person helping them. They usually have a snake room in their house and not huge facility.

Big time= breeding snakes are there only source of income (not including those who have retired from other jobs). Have a staff of 4 or more people. Have Huge breeding facilities the size of a small department store.

So what type of breeder do you prefer to deal with?

---

I've never purchased a snake from BHB, but I had a question once, Brian called me and gave me his cell phone number. I had a question about a snake, and he was ready to mail it to me that day. I would just go with whoever has what I want, and is known to be a good deal.

There attitude doesnt really matter to me, I see something I like and buy it. Big breeders want to deal with higher end morphs, i bet if you look to spend 3000 they will answer your questions. But thats the norm most places. I sent graziani an email and never got an answer so i bought elsewhere. Im sure its not personal maybe they didnt check there email. Theres so many breeders to choose from. :8:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshJP7

My question is if your selling a snake... people want to see pictures... why wouldnt you take like 10 pictures of the snake(s) for sale and put them on your computer?? This way when someone comes and says can you send me pics its like a 2 second process... I understand some people have like 100's of snakes for sale and thats a little much to expect/ask for but the majority of breeders arent huge. I know this is what I plan on doing when I have babies for sale.

---

My theory on this has been that I take 3 pics of the snake for sale. I then pick the best picture and load it on the website. I think that someone can definitely know if they are intersted by that one picture. If they are interested, then when they call or e-mail, I can send them as many other pics as they would like. Once I get one request, I'll save the extra pics. However, as you stated at the end of your post, we produced 121 animals last year, and expect to double that this year. I just really don't have time to take 2500 pics and load them on the computer.

I just wanted to share my take on this. However, I do hate looking at an add for a snake, and the seller was too lazy to take at least one picture, especially if it is a snake that they are asking over $3000 for (and I have seen plenty of those adds).

If there is a picture that is at least halfway decent I don't ask for another. In my situation there were no photos of available animals. None. And I don't buy sight unseen except in one case and I was pleasantly suprised (thanks Adam!).

My experience with BHB was excellent. Brian sent me pics of multiple snakes to choose from on the same day that I asked. He also responded to all of my emails or myspace messages on the same day provided I did not send too late in the day. He also shipped the same day that I paid via Paypal which was awesome. I always got one early the next morning in that case. Tracy Barker was also great when it came to communication and shipment. If I was buying from NERD then I would just go there to look and buy in person as it's pretty close. As I don't have many snakes at the moment I have not dealt with any small breeders, but would not hesitate to if I felt comfortable after conversations and word of mouth.

Well, I see that the breeder whom I was referring to has had his named mentioned. I purposely didn't want his name mentioned because I don't feel it is right attack a person's rep from one non-transaction. Chances are if I see at a booth at a big show, i will prolly stop by and make a purchase. :) He has some nice looking animals. My cousin is into corns so I might get her something nice for her birthday.

I have a hard time dealing with anyone that is reluctant to getting back to me. With all of the technology around today, messages and email is at our fingertips. If someone is to run a business, big or small, they must realize that people are trying to get in touch with them.
With that said, I would usually go with the smaller guys. Your business usually matters more to them and their prices are usually much better.
As long as the snake is healthy, and you don't pay and arm and a leg, it's all gravy when it comes to balls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikedahitman87

Well, I see that the breeder whom I was referring to has had his named mentioned. I purposely didn't want his name mentioned because I don't feel it is right attack a person's rep from one non-transaction.

---

There's really only one "big time" breeder in SE Michigan, so it really wasn't too hard to figure out who you were referring to. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muddoc

My theory on this has been that I take 3 pics of the snake for sale. I then pick the best picture and load it on the website. I think that someone can definitely know if they are intersted by that one picture. If they are interested, then when they call or e-mail, I can send them as many other pics as they would like. Once I get one request, I'll save the extra pics. However, as you stated at the end of your post, we produced 121 animals last year, and expect to double that this year. I just really don't have time to take 2500 pics and load them on the computer.

I just wanted to share my take on this. However, I do hate looking at an add for a snake, and the seller was too lazy to take at least one picture, especially if it is a snake that they are asking over $3000 for (and I have seen plenty of those adds).

---

I agree 100%

If a person is selling a snake that I want, I will go above and beyond being neurotic and will research that person until I am blue in the face. I ask the bigger breeders if they've heard of them, or have dealt with them, and if they have, and that person gets good reviews, then there aren't any problems. A good number of my snakes are from small-time breeders and there have been good and not-so-good transactions.

I've also emailed some of the bigger breeders and have either gotten responses right then and there, and had a good transaction, sometimes I was just plain ignored or forgotten, so they didn't get my business. In the situation of the bigger breeder who ignored me, I was wanting to buy a breeding-size Ball, and willing to pay for quality. I'm very picky about what my animals look like, so if I don't get a picture of the snake I'm interested in, then I won't buy.

I've also had a good number of small breeders go above and beyond the call of duty to send me pictures, even of normal animals, so I could pick.

All in all, I think it evens out. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

All in all, I think it evens out. :)

---

Then why are there ZERO votes for big time breeders. It seems people either prefer small time or don't care at all. No one seems to really prefer the big time breeders (so far)

Because there are 35 votes for Doesn't Matter and 17 votes for Small Time. Most people don't care, others like smaller breeders.

Just an example: A breeder such as Tim Bailey may be considered "small time" compared to someone such as Ralph Davis. I consider both breeders "big time" compared to me. For me, it all depends on who has the Ball Python I want. Example: If Tim has a Het Hypo female for sale, and Ralph Davis does too, but being that I'm personal friends with Tim and Monica, I can usually see that snake in person if they go to a show. That's a big plus for me to see the snake and be able to handle it(I don't like big bitey things in my collection, LOL). I would never hesitate to buy from Ralph, but if I can see the snake I want in person, then that will usually seal the deal(if the snake is Blah looking, then it's a big NO, and I'll go with the other breeder).

Another example: Say you're at a show and are comparing the quality of the same morph of Ball Python that different breeders have at the show. The last show I was looking for a larger Spider male and an Enchi male. I found my Spider male after being at the show maybe 2 hours? He was high quality and good sized, reduced pattern too, which I wanted. I was looking for a nice facial pattern and high gold as well.

I then went to look for Enchis. Very few breeders had them, and when they did, some looked like normals with a bit of orange on their sides(no facial markings), and they still wanted $1000 for them, and others were gorgeous, bright, reduced-patterned, nice facial markings, light eyes(and were the same price). Needless to say, Rusty's Balls introduced me to Chad Fuchs, and he sure got my money.

Again, recently I found a 66% Poss Het Hypo adult female on Kingsnake from a guy in NJ. I found one whole post on him on Fauna, so obviously that wasn't enough for me to have confidence. I then asked Kara @ NERD if she knew of him, or knew of someone that had a good deal with him, and she said yes, she had a very good experience doing business with him. I thought that was good enough for me, and went ahead and purchased her. The seller has kept open contact with me and is shipping her out this evening. We'll see what she looks like tomorrow(as well as the Enchi and the Het Stripe)! :D

To me, quality is everything. You can't make quality with crap, or you have a very low chance. I'd rather start out with the highest quality animals I can, so I can produce quality. Then I won't be struggling with poor quality animals, and trying to make them sell.

I like seeing pictures, even if it's only one. I like for the breeder to stay in contact with me, even if it's a short email once a week or every other week, until the ship date.

I think that this question is hard to define in a simple answer. There are many factors to consider. I believe that it ultimately boils down to what breeder you resonate with and, of course, if they have a particular snake that you feel drawn to. From there it is a matter of personal preference.

When searching for my first BP I did a lot of research online. I found several ‘big breeders’ in my province who were going to be at the same reptile expo. I emailed them, asked questions, got a feel for who I liked more, and then visited the expo with some specific questions to ask each of them. I checked out all the breeders and their animals, but in the end I came back to the same smaller-breeder who had really struck me as being friendly, knowledgeable, and passionate about the care of his snakes. I was impressed with the level of attention he devoted to me, and how he pre-emptively answered many questions (and answered questions I had not even thought to ask) without prompting.

I still keep in contact with him from time to time. He has always been very patient and informative. I’m glad I went with a smaller breeder, because I feel that I have gained the type of highly personalized after-care that some larger breeders may simply not be able to devote to each of their clients.

So my advice for anybody contemplating the ‘big breeder’ vs. ‘small breeder’ would be to check them both out. I can’t say that one is ‘better’ than the other, but you will definitely develop your own preference through experience.

If you can, wait until an expo in/near your area and go to check them all out in person. You may go there with the name of a ‘big breeder’ in mind based on their reputation/advertising alone, only to find the perfect snake and a fabulous breeder at a booth in the back corner of the expo. Uh... just make sure to get a written receipt and a way of contacting them. ;) It also helps to look up their rep online at a place like Fauna first. Most expos will list the vendors online prior to the event.

I thank all of our customers, without you, there would be no ball python projects, no ball python book, no time spent fighting legislative issues! The hardest part is that exactly doing those things that everyone benefits from, book, articles, legislative action, takes time away that we could be 100% devoted to you our customers! Trust me when I say it is painful to me that anyone feels I have not done my best during any transaction. There are many projects that I have worked on for literally 5 years plus to get the snakes that everyone wants! To think that the week doing a transaction for the animal is the determining factor of my efforts, that can be pretty daunting! Having said that I will continue to do my best and improve!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikedahitman87

NOTE:
When I started this thread I did not make any generalizations. I only talked about my one-time experience, but that doesn't mean I will never turn to a large breeder like NERD in the future. I have no experiences, good or bad, with him. Especially I am spending a lot of money. If the price is already over $1200 why not spend the extra $200 for something from a big name breeder.

I would like to say though that people make generalizations on one-time experiences all the time. For example, if I were to go to my local Home Depot and no one offered to help me and when I did find someone to answer my questions, they couldn't, I wouldn't go back there again. I would look for a Lowe's.

But there are generalizations that are pretty safe to make about large and small breeders.
1. Larger breeders are more likely to have a bigger stock of what you are looking for.
2. They are also more insulated from the hazards of the business, such as death on arrival.
3. Probably have enough space to hold on to snakes that don't sell as fast.

---

I think there is also something to be said for the experience level of someone like Kevin at NERD who basically made the ball python we know and love today. I know that when I went there on Saturday I was able to get about 10 minutes of one-on-one time with Kevin to just talk and he showed me some of his absolutely beautiful snakes and morphs and answered so many of my questions and in the nicest and most genuine way possible, he didn't treat me like an idiot when I called a morph by the wrong name etc... He also told me that when I'm ready to buy my next BP (I want a spider from them) that I could let him know a few months in advance and he would pick out the perfect snake from one of his clutches and hold it just for me! I don't know of many other people that would do that and for that he has my guaranteed business for life. I truly believe it is worth the extra money just for the peace of mind that comes with having an animal that is as well taken care of from birth as they are. I'm not knocking anyone else I know there are a ton of other great breeders out there but I've found mine :). Just my .02 (total noob so maybe my .002? lol ::oops:)

There are very few pople in this industry that have struck em the way Kevin and Kara have..your right on with NERD, or VPI tracy has alway returned my emails and I always enjoy hearing from NERD.

i have emailed kevin a couple of times but he wasnt able to reply, cos i know he is a very busy person so i understand. i then sent a message to kara and she made sure that kevin was able to read my mail..and after a couple of hours, he did reply to my mail. thanks kara.

i also voted it doesnt matter whether big breeder or small breeder..although most of the small breeders dont ship internationally. so its a different story with me i guess?