The Economy - is it really that bad?

I don't usually create any off-topic threads, but after reading yet another front page article on CNN or Fox about the economy being in the porcelain and looking out of my office window and seeing quite the contrary, I wanted to ask you guys what your opinion is of how your local economy is doing.

I work in Charlotte, NC and all I see are new, beautiful homes and condos going up and people driving brand new cars and going out to eat and basically everything contrary to the picture that the media has painted. I realize that this may not be the case for everyone but I personally don't know of anyone doing that badly. Being a recent college graduate, most of my friends have not had problems finding good jobs and many have bought homes recently and are doing very well for themselves. Its not like I'm isolated in a higher class social circle either - the jobs we are getting are all white collar entry level positions in the finance, real estate, and professional service industries but we are all WELL below the $100k/yr tax bracket, that's for sure.

Is the economy really that bad or does everyone just think it is bad because the media says so every single day? The US is still a much better place to live than 95% of the rest of the world. Ask your grandparents about what it was like to grow up in the depression-era and realize that even today, that's about the norm for a lot of other countries out there....

So, relatively speaking, are things really all that bad? $4 gas sucks but its been like that for at least the past decade in Europe...

Great thread and definitely a thread worth following, as I wonder the same thing.

What the rest of the country sees trickling down now has already been in full swing in Michigan.

The downfall of our major employers (GM, Dodge, etc) has done considerable damage on our economy. It's a major issue for us in Michigan as it is getting harder and harder to find good jobs.

I know several kids my age that were hired into GM for what seems like great pay for a 19-22 year old, but on the flip side, my boyfriends father was "retired" with a package that was only 1/3 of what he was promised 5 years ago.

Around here, a house that would go for 2 million+ anywhere else in the country is available for a measly 500,000- 600,000 dollars. People are losing their jobs every day, and while it is easier for the younger generation (me) to fill the gaps, we are also not getting paid anywhere close to what the people were before us.

Around here, there are more and more houses being put up, but on the flip side, an astronomical amount of foreclosures riddle my area.

Again, great for people like me looking to buy a house, and get a new job... but really bad for the people who used to make the big bucks, and no longer can afford that lifestyle and it directly reflects on our economy in each city.

Cities like Midland where it seems everyone is employed with Dow Chemical or Dow Corning, the goings still good. People still drive countless numbers of imported cars and make good money (even though I do know of some let go's in the past few months), but in cities like Saginaw... not so good. Places are closing everyday and while the officials scramble for grants... the weight of debt has created an avalanche that is slowing down, but by no means stopping here.

Th economy is doing pretty poorly. Here in Florida the main issue has been people buying houses they can't afford. Then when they go to forclose the house, the value of the house has dropped, so they people can't pay back the morgage companies. This has caused a of morgage company closures and problems within the housing market.

The other issues are inflation and recession or better known as stagflation. Usually with inflation the economy is growing, so it is ok, but now the economy is receding and inflation is still going up. That means people make less money and stuff now costs a lot more. The housing market has also greatly effected the inflation rate. When you go to get a morgage at a bank, the bank gets the money from the Federal Reserve. If the Reserve doesn't have the money they print more, with the end result of inflation. Also the Federal Reserve lends money to the USA at interest, like you would get on a loan from a bank. This instantly puts America into debt.

Now the Reserve has been slashing interest rates, which is what the USA has to pay back. By doing this banks can lower their interest rates, and still make money. This is supposed to spur Americans to spend more.

Gas is $4 a gallon here, but overseas their money is worth more than twice ours, so they are effectively paying half of what we are. Gas used to be $1 a gallon before the Oil Tycoon took over:gj:.

I'm guilty of not following some areas close enough, so I don't feel comfortable giving an overall "educated" answer... but I will tell you what I've noticed... My neighborhood has had a lot, I mean A LOT of homes go up for sale, or being offered for rent, or just becoming vacant in the last year- year 1/2... I spoke with my realtor last week, and she said that property values are down everywhere... it's a buyers market right now. If I wanted to sell and move, as a realtor she'd help, but as my FRIEND... she strongly advised waiting until the market goes back up. Basically my home is worth less now, then it was when we purchased it 2 years ago. :confused: Kinda not cool. Let me just throw in that I bye no means live in a fancy neighborhood... but you can leave your doors open, and you get a stern letter from the home owners association if you've let your yard go too long, or your boat is parked on the street... according to my realtor friend, even the up-scale homes are way down...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

Gas is $4 a gallon here, but overseas their money is worth more than twice ours, so they are effectively paying half of what we are. Gas used to be $1 a gallon before the Oil Tycoon took over:gj:.

---

Not to go off-topic on the economy debate, but I'm not sure that statement is totally accurate...here's a price list dated 2005, I can only imagine that they would be significantly higher now:
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lis...bal_gasprices/

ahh I guess it depends on where you live and what econoic and social background you have. If your in the upper middle to omg wealthy your proably going to be fine for the next six months or so but with the housing market loosing value for the first time in at least the last 50 years if not ever,I see things starting to go down hill faster and faster. Living in ohio and being from Michigan and hear and seeing the effects of the layoffs that are hitting the area shoot over 3000 in toledo in the last two months things are really starting to hurt for you average working family. With the rising price of desiel and gas the cost of food is going to rise significgantly in the next six months to a year. Combine all this with the increased planting of corn for fuel use, wich is causeing wheat to be in shorter and shorter supply you are going to see the prices of your basic breads cereal and everything that needs flour to be made rising steadily in the next year. If we are not in a depression just yet we are in the middle of a strong recession,and since the money that has been made is bascily paper and fictional stock money, with less and less being spent on the infrasturcre of manufacturing the bottom is going to fall out sooner then latter for a majority of us americans. Big business Is sending jobs overseas faster and faster to promote cheaper goods and the rising economic growth and market in places in china and other devloping countries that are where america was 30 to 40 years ago moving forward and there developing ecomony is going to produce many many markets for these products.The rulers of this country that top one to two percent of this country will stay rich so they don't care what happens to the working man of this country they can make their money from anywhere in the world so why put it back into this country.

Excellent post Connie and Jeff... Connie what you described sounds very similar to what I'm seeing here in Texas.

From that chart it is $5.79 per gallon/in USD. That is only 3.36 GBP(Great British Pounds). Its almost half of what we pay, but thats because of inflation of the USDollar.

So, I guess how bad the economy is depends on who you ask...

If you ask my friends that have finally been able to afford homes in the new, lower market, I'd say its pretty good for them. A lot of real estate people will also admit that the market has been grossly inflated for a long time in many places.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

The downfall of our major employers (GM, Dodge, etc) has done considerable damage on our economy. It's a major issue for us in Michigan as it is getting harder and harder to find good jobs.

---

What has happened in the northern states is really sad...all of the big production jobs moved overseas or companies are being out-competed by foreign entities. A lot of economists blame labor unions for this - american manufacturing couldn't keep up with the wages they had to pay their workers. Pretty simple solution - move operations to places where they could make a profit. These companies aren't evil, they are just doing what they need to do to survive. I think that labor unions were necessary back in the old days but I think they out-lived their usefulness and basically were the downfall of the american manufacturing worker in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

From that chart it is $5.79 per gallon/in USD. That is only 3.36 GBP(Great British Pounds). Its almost half of what we pay, but thats because of inflation of the USDollar.

---

Those are already adjusted prices. Fuel costs in Europe have been extraordinarily high for a long time compared to the US.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

So, I guess how bad the economy is depends on who you ask...

If you ask my friends that have finally been able to afford homes in the new, lower market, I'd say its pretty good for them. A lot of real estate people will also admit that the market has been grossly inflated for a long time in many places.

---

Exactly, it is a awesome time for buyers right now, with low interest rates. But if the trend keeps it up, the houses people are buying now could go lower and lower in value.

A lot of this has also come from the war. There is much more focus and spending in foreign affairs overseas, than in the US itself. The economy has been almost neglected for the past 8 years and this is what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Those are already adjusted prices. Fuel costs in Europe have been extraordinarily high for a long time compared to the US.

---

True, I goofed there. Also take into account, there are many less drivers in Europe. Many people ride bikes, or walk. Also their cars are smaller and more efficient. A lot of peoples gas woes are from their own ignorance of driving a Hummer.

Heavy hits are isolated to certain areas, but it is trickling down through the price increases for everything and raises getting smaller for the majority of people. Last year the average end of year raise was only 2.5% the year before that it was 3.75%. You take that and the average increase in the cost of goods due to inflation and rising gas prices and you find out your pay check does not pay for what it did the year before and that is after the small raise you got. This is generally a sign of an economy going bad. Also the market has made a serious correction / drop into recession territory which generally indicates money is not moving like it used to!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

If you ask my friends that have finally been able to afford homes in the new, lower market, I'd say its pretty good for them. A lot of real estate people will also admit that the market has been grossly inflated for a long time in many places.

---

Ofcourse it's good for them. Houses are more affordable now than ever. Like many others have seen, houses are being sold, because mortgages can't be paid, leaving sellers no option but to sell at lower prices. I wish I had bought our new house today rather than two years ago...I could have saved 20,000.

I shudder with the thought of another interest rate cut, it's such a band-aid solution. I truly believe America is in for a wake up call.

I think the economy is bad only in perception. the experts tell us about worrysome numbers, the american ppl get nervous and stop making big or investment purchases and suddenly there is an ACTUAL problem.

What us little ppl are feeling is not a bad economy, its high gas prices.

Justin

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jkobylka

I think the economy is bad only in perception. the experts tell us about worrysome numbers, the american ppl get nervous and stop making big or investment purchases and suddenly there is an ACTUAL problem.

What us little ppl are feeling is not a bad economy, its high gas prices.

Justin

---

I agree completely...

There is the issue of middle america feeling the crunch with all of the big manufacturing industries laying off workers, but this is nothing new....

I don't think that the media is helping much by reporting every small jitter. The reality is that most of the audience they report to don't even fully understand the dynamics of interest rate cuts or how the fed affects financial markets. They paint such a grim picture that it naturally starts to affect people's perceptions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brimstone111888

From that chart it is $5.79 per gallon/in USD. That is only 3.36 GBP(Great British Pounds). Its almost half of what we pay, but thats because of inflation of the USDollar.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elevatethis

Those are already adjusted prices. Fuel costs in Europe have been extraordinarily high for a long time compared to the US.

---

Hi,

I know those prices were from 2005 so I just went and worked out the cost of petrol (unleaded) in my area at the moment.

It's a bit tricky as it's priced in litres and I work in gallons (add to that british gallons and US gallons are different :confused: ) but after a pile of convertors here is the actual current UK price;

$8.10302 per us gallon.


dr del

Has anyone noticed just WHO is making record breaking profits EVERY quarter?

Big Oil.

I wonder what would happen if we took 10% of what we are spending on this "war" and put it into creating jobs here?

I also wonder what would happen if we leveled the playing field and started charging REAL tariffs, just as we are charged when we take our products overseas.

I wonder too, oddly enough, just WHO is profitting by our lack of a level playing field.

Actually, I don't wonder at all, I'm just a cynical sarcastic caustic disgruntled Citizen of what used to be the best country in the world.

Hey, nafta was pretty cool too, wasn't it? That was BRILLIANT!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McAdry

ahh I guess it depends on where you live and what econoic and social background you have. If your in the upper middle to omg wealthy your proably going to be fine for the next six months or so but with the housing market loosing value for the first time in at least the last 50 years if not ever,I see things starting to go down hill faster and faster. Living in ohio and being from Michigan and hear and seeing the effects of the layoffs that are hitting the area shoot over 3000 in toledo in the last two months things are really starting to hurt for you average working family. With the rising price of desiel and gas the cost of food is going to rise significgantly in the next six months to a year. Combine all this with the increased planting of corn for fuel use, wich is causeing wheat to be in shorter and shorter supply you are going to see the prices of your basic breads cereal and everything that needs flour to be made rising steadily in the next year. If we are not in a depression just yet we are in the middle of a strong recession,and since the money that has been made is bascily paper and fictional stock money, with less and less being spent on the infrasturcre of manufacturing the bottom is going to fall out sooner then latter for a majority of us americans. Big business Is sending jobs overseas faster and faster to promote cheaper goods and the rising economic growth and market in places in china and other devloping countries that are where america was 30 to 40 years ago moving forward and there developing ecomony is going to produce many many markets for these products.The rulers of this country that top one to two percent of this country will stay rich so they don't care what happens to the working man of this country they can make their money from anywhere in the world so why put it back into this country.

---

The problems of Michigan began two decades ago when they (auto makers) started turning out total and utter junk. They opened the doors for better more economical alternatives. The unions demanded more and more and before you knew it, the big auto companies were financing cars for free just to turn and burn them. They were loosing $1200 on every car that went out the door and instead of being able to (scary word) FIRE people, they were forced to pay out big compensation packages and that just put more and more pressure on the bottom line. They are improving, however they now have worldwide competition and it will not come back the same, that's not the governments fault. Companies need to make a profit, this is still america and not yet a socialist nation........

Ethanol is the worst idea this country has swallowed in a long long time. It takes 8 gallons of actual gas to make 10 gallons of ethanol and the consumption of corn in this process has and will continue to rise the cost of other goods far greater than the 20%fuel production.

We are not in a depression, technically we are not even in a recession yet, will we actually get there? Who knows, I do think its going to get worse before it gets better BUT I've not seen any kind of slow down in my business. In fact, my sales for the first quarter of this year are double what they have ever been. I'm selling a ton of things overseas because of the low dollar and finally taking some of our money back from over the pond rather than sending it over there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Has anyone noticed just WHO is making record breaking profits EVERY quarter?

Big Oil.

I wonder what would happen if we took 10% of what we are spending on this "war" and put it into creating jobs here?

I also wonder what would happen if we leveled the playing field and started charging REAL tariffs, just as we are charged when we take our products overseas.

I wonder too, oddly enough, just WHO is profitting by our lack of a level playing field.

Actually, I don't wonder at all, I'm just a cynical sarcastic caustic disgruntled Citizen of what used to be the best country in the world.

Hey, nafta was pretty cool too, wasn't it? That was BRILLIANT!!!

---

A recent study found that 41% of people that own stocks be it individual stocks, mutual funds or who had 401k's owned Exxon and other "big oil" companies. They pay large dividends and their share price has risen. Their profits have ended back into individuals hands. Its the great think about America is that big business is not just big business, if you want a share of it, you can literally buy a share of the companies stock.... Profits have not risen due to higher oil costs as they don't control the price nor does the government, profits have rose because demand has continued to rise even as prices have.

The government creating jobs is not a good thing either, the less government does the better. Bailing out home owners and speculators, giving people free passes for their mistakes only pacifies the problem and does not create a long term solution. Life is about lessons and sometimes lessons are learned by falling on your face, if the government is there to hold a pillow for you everytime you fall, just like a baby you expect a cookie everytime you cry, you'll end up living at mom's and dads house forever or need government handouts for the rest of your life.

I am by no means an economic expert, nor even particularly educated on the subject. But I'm smart and I watch and listen.

In almost all cases, the doomsayers about the economy are just that...doomsayers. No matter what good thing is happening, they find a flip-side of the coin to complain about. If housing prices are going up, it's bad for the first-time home buyer or low-income person. If housing prices are dropping, it's bad for home owners and anyone who has invested in property. No matter WHAT happens in our economy, it's good for some and bad for others. There is always some way to twist current events into whatever sort of gloomy (or sunny) news story you want to present.

So, for the most part, I'm pretty much deaf to all the fear mongering that is ALWAYS going on about our economy. Whichever party is in power, the other party is broadcasting doom and playing the blame game on every bad thing that happens to anyone.

In recent days though...I've begun to sit up and take notice a little bit more. Things ARE different. And it's not just a momentary blip in gas prices. What it is, is an entire society built on an economy no more secure than a house of cards. Increasingly, over the years, it has become not just "acceptable" but the "norm" to carry debt. Not just a mortgage or car note...but more and more debt on consumable goods. The goods are consumed and gone...traded in for even nicer stuff...but still being paid for. How many Americans are still paying for meals they ate last month? For furniture they don't even have anymore? For "toys" that sit in the garage, covered in rust and dust. How many Americans pay extra each month just for storage of all the junk they're still paying for that doesn't fit in the home they can't afford in the first place???

And not only is it becoming "normal" to buy everything under the sun on credit...it's becoming quite acceptable to default on those loans. To file bankruptcy...or if not that, to "negotiate" reduced debt in order to settle. When did it become OK to take merchandise from someone and not pay for it??? Isn't that stealing? SOMEone has to pay for it. And if that debt falls back to the merchant often enough or hard enough, then through no fault of his own, the merchant is suddenly out of business.

Americans are now taught that however much money they make, it's NOT ENOUGH. They should borrow more. They should take out "special" mortgages for homes that should have been way out of their league but are suddenly "affordable." Only...that's all an illusion. And when the fog clears, we've got people all over the country, in all economic brackets defaulting on these loans...leaving lenders and banks in a lurch...which in turn causes huge ripple effects all over the economy.

And don't even get me started on the government's debt-hungry maw. It's all a part of the same paradigm that this country and culture have shifted into over the last few decades. We're "entitled" to whatever we want, and damn the consequences.

Our economy is a house-of-cards. And recent events seem to be portending a "perfect storm" that could very likely blow that house down completely. At the very least, it will bring tremendous trials to this nation and virtually everyone in it. Not that we haven't been through such trials and survived before....but I for one am not going to dismiss the signs and do what I can to prepare.

Judy, much better post than I could have wrote with thoughts matching mine nearly to a T. I'm not afraid to toss the political hat on as many of you know which way I proudly lean. In this time of as you correctly write "entitlements" we as Americans so robustly feel as though we deserve, we have more politicians out there trying to take from big oil, walmart and other prosperous well run companies with extra special taxes to give even greater entitlements to all, to the detriment of all those who actually work hard and for those rights....

Good points Neil, but let me explain a bit more.

Let say we're spending a trillion a year on the war. It's not exact but it's an easy number to work with.

A trillion is a hundred billion, if I'm not mistaken and a billion is a hundred million. So, a trillion is ten thousand millions of dollars. 10% of that is one thousand millions or 10 billion.

EDIT: I have been informed that a billion is a THOUSAND MILLION and that a TRILLION is a THOUSAND BILLION. These numbers are SOOOOOO big, that I am speechless. If you know me at all, you know how signifigant that really is. END EDIT

What do you suppose could be accomplished with 10 billion dollars? We've already got it taken from the citizens, it's allocated for the war, so no one is going to be out one penny more than they are now.

Do you suppose we could house or educate a few million people for their lifetimes? How about some old folks. Could we take care of a few million of them until they died? How about shoring up our southern border? I bet some smart contractor would be willing to build a good fence for a lot than a billion dollars.

I'm not looking for the government to fix things for me, just to use responsibly what they've already taken FROM me.

Why are we so bloody concerned with everyone else in the world and not our own? Why do we pay to export our goods and SUPPLEMENT other countries to IMPORT here?

If it wasn't all about profit for the big money guys, things would be better for everyone. They have this idea that they need to make, and I'm just pulling a number out of my butt here, 20% profit EVERY YEAR.

What's wrong with 5% one year, or two years even? Why do you have to screw your fellow Americans to hit that magical 20%?

I know, I know, you can buy into anything like the stocks you mentioned.

IF you're a little guy, you might buy 100 stocks with a value of 100.00 each. Let's say they go up that magical 20%. Now your 10,000.00 investment is worth 12,000.00.

But the guy who can afford to buy 1,000 shares of stock is laughing all the way to the bank while you MIGHT be able to make ONE mortgage payment.

And I don't buy into the oil companies having no control over the price of crude. If they said NO instead of gimme gimme, eventually prices would come down. Yeah, we'd have to tighten our belts and maybe pay a bit more, but if we taxed and levied our competitors for that oil the way they do US, if we leveled the playing field, then they might get the idea that we would all be better off if prices of crude were lower. That would then lead to lowering of tariffs and import taxes which would make things for everyone more affordable.

We just don't play hardball anymore.

Why the bloody heck are the Olympics happening in China? Tell me they've met ANY of the promises they made 10 years ago.

We shouldn't be going but it's money so we will.

It's profit so we take it.

It sucks but no one will say so.

It's pathetic.

Can someone explain how the "stimulus package" put forth was supposed to help this situation, because I don't really understand that. You know, the "government cheese" that came in the mail? :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

Good points Neil, but let me explain a bit more.

Let say we're spending a trillion a year on the war. It's not exact but it's an easy number to work with.

A trillion is a hundred billion, if I'm not mistaken and a billion is a hundred million. So, a trillion is ten thousand millions of dollars. 10% of that is one thousand millions or 10 billion.

What do you suppose could be accomplished with 10 billion dollars? We've already got it taken from the citizens, it's allocated for the war, so no one is going to be out one penny more than they are now.

Do you suppose we could house or educate a few million people for their lifetimes? How about some old folks. Could we take care of a few million of them until they died? How about shoring up our southern border? I bet some smart contractor would be willing to build a good fence for a lot than a billion dollars.

I'm not looking for the government to fix things for me, just to use responsibly what they've already taken FROM me.

Why are we so bloody concerned with everyone else in the world and not our own? Why do we pay to export our goods and SUPPLEMENT other countries to IMPORT here?

If it wasn't all about profit for the big money guys, things would be better for everyone. They have this idea that they need to make, and I'm just pulling a number out of my butt here, 20% profit EVERY YEAR.

What's wrong with 5% one year, or two years even? Why do you have to screw your fellow Americans to hit that magical 20%?

I know, I know, you can buy into anything like the stocks you mentioned.

IF you're a little guy, you might buy 100 stocks with a value of 100.00 each. Let's say they go up that magical 20%. Now your 10,000.00 investment is worth 12,000.00.

But the guy who can afford to buy 1,000 shares of stock is laughing all the way to the bank while you MIGHT be able to make ONE mortgage payment.

And I don't buy into the oil companies having no control over the price of crude. If they said NO instead of gimme gimme, eventually prices would come down. Yeah, we'd have to tighten our belts and maybe pay a bit more, but if we taxed and levied our competitors for that oil the way they do US, if we leveled the playing field, then they might get the idea that we would all be better off if prices of crude were lower. That would then lead to lowering of tariffs and import taxes which would make things for everyone more affordable.

We just don't play hardball anymore.

Why the bloody heck are the Olympics happening in China? Tell me they've met ANY of the promises they made 10 years ago.

We shouldn't be going but it's money so we will.

It's profit so we take it.

It sucks but no one will say so.

It's pathetic.

---

Wes they would have to find morals(and a few other things) before the big shots could even think about us.Its all about who has more money :mad:.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icygirl

Can someone explain how the "stimulus package" put forth was supposed to help this situation, because I don't really understand that. You know, the "government cheese" that came in the mail? :P

---

Well they will "stimulUS" to think they give a rats behind about US :mad:.If you get it they will get you later plus more you watch ;)

With regard to how our government spends our money, I'll just say this: No matter which side of the aisle a person falls on politically, it is painfully obvious that the government has screwed up our national finances. Blame it on the republicans...blame it on the democrats...I don't care. Personally, I think they're all culpable. The government, simply by the nature of what it is, will screw up anything it sets its hands to. Which is why I agree wholeheartedly with Neil in that less is better. The less they try and mess with, the less chance they have of screwing it up. The more they try and "fix," the worse things get.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icygirl

Can someone explain how the "stimulus package" put forth was supposed to help this situation, because I don't really understand that. You know, the "government cheese" that came in the mail? :P

---

Bush also said it was to spur the economy and "off set" the loss of value on homes. Wait what? $600 is supposed to offset home value loses? I seriously wonder how the guy got elected....twice.

It also is supposed to make people go out and spend the free money, which in turn stirs the economy, BUT one major loophole is that most items the money will be spent on won't benefit the US economy one bit, because so much is imported.

Yep! $300 is going to do what for me? Help me pay half of my month's rent? Yeah right..

I remember reading somewhere about the difference between are recession and a depression....

"A recession is when your neighbor losses his job.
A depression is when you lose your job."

The state of the economy depends on who is doing the evaluation...it all depends on perspective.

The economy I see looks the same as it did last year except for when I am watching the news and filling up my gas tank. Some people I know are a little strapped for cash because they had invested in real estate right before the crash.

In my part of the world, most problems stem from the housing issues.....not the stock market or the value of the American dollar. Home prices were overinflated, the workforce is saturated with illegal immigrants, and banks forgot how to manage morgages.

Personally, I am furious at the way our country has handled the morgage situation. If people took on loans to large to handle, let them be bankrupt and homeless....maybe they would learn their lesson. If banks give money to people that they can't pay, then they should go out out of business for mismanaging their money....maybe they would learn that there are consequences for their actions. But instead the government bails everyone out.....'Its ok to mess up, because Uncle Sam will help you out'.....it makes me sick. I can't get my interest rate lowered on my house because I pay my note every month.....maybe I should stop paying so that they will cut my rate when the bank starts threatening foreclosure?

I also fear that the US lack of policy and enforcement on illegal immigrants may do extreame harm if this country's economy does sink us to an economic point similar to the Great Depression....if the economy really gets bad.....what will the millions of illegals "doing jobs that Americans won't do" do when they lose their jobs?......what will happen to the US citizens?

.....I had an REALLY old economics teacher in college.....

....he used to say......"My family was rather uneffected by the depression......we worked just as hard as we normally did to pay the mortgage, invested our money in ammunition, and planted a bigger garden"......I like that approach to fighting off a 'bad' economy....

.....think I might get started on the garden this weekend ;)

Very intersting posts.

I agree with Judy on many points, Americans have become financially irresponsible from the White house to the aisles of Wallmart to car dealers and Real Estate/mortgage brokers. I bought my house over 10 years ago and boy did they break my you know whats to give me a loan. Why? because they had much stricter parameters than recently, with much less risk. Now lets go back 3-4 years lenders were giving loans away, low doc loans, teaser rates(at a record pace) and real estate people were selling homes to anyone wether they could afford it or not. Why? BIG $! Now people are loosing homes they couldn't afford in the first place(at a record pace). We are up to our eyeballs in debt and many cany afford to pay the piper.

Wilomon also makes a great point. Our president took a surplus economy and since then, buried us in deficit(Conservative?). The value of the dollar is weakening. The amount of $ spent in Iraq is staggering, for what? WMD? There are people getting rich from this war, it just aint me and you folks (See Haliburton).
These funds could be better spent help education and help teach jobs which is the key to bring opportunity to the poorer classes. The more educated money makers we have/create, the more people will purchase goods and the more our economy will grow, healthy growth(not borrowed growth) Also we could do something about the medical industry which is in a shambles and costs everyone(that pays) millions.


Most markets go through cycles where things go from under valued (lows) and go to overvalued(highs) only to eventually be corrected and drop closer to realistic values and start again. There are many factors that control this and it will vary from industry to industry and from one geographic location to other areas. The world has become smaller and economies from other nations affect each other now more than ever.



Depending how stable you are financially and how you make your income these changes may affect some more than others.

The bottom line is if a squirrel doesn't save his nuts during the summer he is gonna starve when winter hits. This has been how we have survived for millions of years.
Now people are spending what they dont have and many dont appreciate what they already have and always want more. Our debt is at a record highs and winter is setting in folks(the correction). The old work ethic, work hard and save has changed to, work hard and make minimun credit card payments. This mentality can only last so long and then comes a correction.

How many nuts do you have for winter? That is the most important economy and it differs from person to person. It's not how much $ you make but how much you got leftover that counts. Wether it's $30,000 or $300,000 if you spend more than you make you are gonna get in trouble, eventually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icygirl

Can someone explain how the "stimulus package" put forth was supposed to help this situation, because I don't really understand that. You know, the "government cheese" that came in the mail? :P

---

I can explain. My wife, myself and my 2 kids are just a shade under the max income amount. So to us, this is an $1800 check (I think thats the amount...$1200 for joint filers and $300 per kid) that is supposed to be spent to stimulate the economy. I will be putting this money to good use by buying BALL PYTHONS!

Heck ya, me and the BF will be getting 1200$, and I can bet you that we will be VERY stimulating with it ;) :D :floating:

Im not into to alot of politics. Nor am I one to overly worry about the economy. I will say and feel safe in doing so that it has become an issue around my area. Alot of foreclosures and such are lowering property left and right. For alot of people that is bad such as my husband's uncle who's base income is off of the properties he own's.

For those of us stuck in the middle class slot, I will say yeh things are a struggle. But other oppurtunites have opened for us that werent always an option. We have tried for 3 years with about the same income to purchase a new car, we were always turned down or asked to get a co-signer and my brother in-law was in the same boat. All of a sudden we both have been able to get new cars with no co-signer no down payments. We both used seperate car lots, so yeh it does seem like where sometimes things tend to look bad it tends to open oppurtunities for those who before had none.

Completly off topic as I'm not even getting into my ideas about this, but I just noticed you're in charlotte brad! I always like to find out there are more bp.net-ers near me :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sinsation

For those of us stuck in the middle class slot, I will say yeh things are a struggle. But other oppurtunites have opened for us that werent always an option. We have tried for 3 years with about the same income to purchase a new car, we were always turned down or asked to get a co-signer and my brother in-law was in the same boat. All of a sudden we both have been able to get new cars with no co-signer no down payments. We both used seperate car lots, so yeh it does seem like where sometimes things tend to look bad it tends to open oppurtunities for those who before had none.

---

I wouldn't exactly call that an opportunity...the only thing that changed is that they are now extending credit to you...and by buying a new car with zero money down, you end up paying a lot more in interest over the term of the loan.

This is pretty good example of what Raul was talking about...financing things that they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford has become the norm for a lot of people and that makes it so easy to spend outside of your means. Same goes for people buying houses - I find it hard to have a lot of sympathy for a buyer that doesn't educate themselves about buying a home, probably the largest and most important investment that they will ever make. And then, when they are approved for this huge mortgage with tiered payments, they get excited about this so called "opportunity" as you put it, and spend much more than what they can actually afford.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holbeird

Completly off topic as I'm not even getting into my ideas about this, but I just noticed you're in charlotte brad! I always like to find out there are more bp.net-ers near me :)

---

Yeah I took a job here this past August and will probably be here until early fall. I really like it so far and hope to move back as soon as I can.

back to the thread....

Well we bought a home $30,000.00 less than what we were approved for, and this year I'm glad of it... because after mortgage and 2 car notes I'm not sure where the extra green has gone... Defiantly NOT into a reptile hobby! ;)

the reason this country is in trouble....

Dictionary: narcissism (när′səsizəm) A personality disorder in which a person is so self-absorbed that the needs and feelings of others do not matter.

me, me, me more, more more

no one is willing to come together and try to solve problems anymore because its easier to stand back and point fingers. he said this, they did that, our president this, the congress that, my boss is this, my co worker is that. until people start taking responsibility for there actions and come together to help one another these things will remain the same. "A house divided against itself cannot stand." - Lincoln

http://www.rossputin.com/blog/media/mortgagemess.pdf

I thought this was quite entertaining and a great explanation about what's going on with this stupid housing market... ;)

WARNING, a few swear words, Don't let your kids read it

I'll start of by saying I'm doing very well these days( Cause I work my tail off). Now I do see an official recession coming after 52 straight months of job growth nationwide( which is up there historically). Now I think many of us Americans are at fault, we like the govt should be much more responsible with our money, I know many who took second and third mortgages to finance lifestyles that could not be maintained. Hummer(gas guzzlers) were flying out of dealerships, people have been very irresponsible now they are paying for it. Plus many of these foreclosures were people who got stuck with homes they were trying to flip, don't misunderstand me we have some real problems but what I'm trying to say is we all have to take some responsibility at the end. It's easy to blame Bush he'll be gone soon who will you blame next.


P.S Bill and Hillary signed NAFTA

I'm a University student at the time being, so I can't speak as to my own economic experiences quite yet. My parents, however, own a small restaurant in our home town and our numbers for the past several months have been abnormally low. My father keeps records of our numbers from the previous year, and they've consistently made more money each year they've owned the business. They were fine during the summer, but this winter has been particularly tight. They're currently in the process of preparing our house to sell, so they have less of a payment to worry about month-to-month. They're planning to remodel the basement of our restaurant and live downstairs there. It upsets me that people who work as hard and as many hours as they do are at the point of having to sell their home because their small business isn't faring as well as they would have hoped... They've been trying to sell the restaurant for the last three years without luck.

One could also argue that job losses and lower paying jobs are an effect of a global economy where there are people out in other countries willing to be paid less for the same work than we would. Companies are taking their jobs to the people they can afford to hire to keep their profits in the billions. We are now competing for jobs on a global market where we as Americans are not the best (in some cases) and want more money for our work.

Food for thought...:(

You want high economy try living in nyc, I make a good living and am an engineer, the average house here is about 750,000 to buy, rent here for a single bedroom apartment is about 1100 to 3000 a month. Im lucky and bought my house about 10 years ago. unfortunatley you have to go with the times, I worked double shifts for 5 years and now am finaly confortable, I feel bad for you guys and gals getting out of college soon. Save Save and Save, my best advice.:taz:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hondo1967

You want high economy try living in nyc,

---

You ain't kiddin brotha. I live in Northern NJ, I pay about 3K a month in mortgage, pay $8 for the tunnel toll and $19 daily to park, working in NYC! Not to mention that a simple breakfast costs $8 and an equally simple lunch is $10.
That sucks! I'd much rather live far far away from a big city!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by monk90222

Not to mention that a simple breakfast costs $8 and an equally simple lunch is $10.

---

Its about the same out here, if not more for lunch!

I have a very twisted view on most things in life. However, the earth being round was quite twisted at one point in time.....on to the post!
Is the economy as bad as it is being made out to be by the media? Well, I suppose that depends on where you are, and which media you get your information from. I'm from a relatively small college town in the middle of nowhere kentucky. There are very very few "good" jobs to be had within 100 miles of here, and an over abundance of highly educated, degree holding, recent graduates. Gas is outragous (for here, there's a refinery about 70 miles east of here), and by outrageous I mean mid 3's. Now, with all that being said, the LOCAL economy is doing ok, not great, but ok. There are alot of people from outside the area (sometimes even states away) that spend a TON of money on school here every 4 months. not to mention, all the other goods they consume. I have no information on the housing market here, I will not comment.
I blame spending beyond your means on music and tv (I'd love to tell you, if your really that interested, pm me). I blame the war on greed. Which brings me to something I don't understand. Wanting more money. Money is paper that represents a given amount of precious metals (gold). Gold is the only thing humans have to back up paper money. So it seems weird for me to imagine people wanting more of anything besides food, love(all kinds), or gold. There comes a point in time where a number a dollar bills is just a ridiculous number that has no meaning. For instance, spending billions of dollars a day on the war. that implies that everyday, there are billions of more gold caches being materialized from nothing. am I wrong?

Edit: living in NYC or any major metro area really just boils down to supply and demand, which why rent and food is so expensive in those areas. 15 million people all wanting to live in the same 20 square miles mean that you can charge pretty mush whatever you want for rent and SOMEBODY will pay it. :end edit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

A trillion is a hundred billion, if I'm not mistaken and a billion is a hundred million. So, a trillion is ten thousand millions of dollars. 10% of that is one thousand millions or 10 billion.

EDIT: I have been informed that a billion is a THOUSAND MILLION and that a TRILLION is a THOUSAND BILLION. These numbers are SOOOOOO big, that I am speechless. If you know me at all, you know how signifigant that really is. END EDIT

---

To put this in even MORE mind blowing perspective - from FairTax: The Truth, Answering the Critics, by Neal Boortz and Congressman John Linder with Rob Woodall, p. 41:

Quote:

---

In our last book we cited studies that showed that Americans and American businesses have stashed somewhere around $10 trillion in offshore financial centers. These offshore depositories hae been growing by more than $800 billion per year. By the time you read this book, that number will be closing in on $12 trillion.

Let's pause a moment to think about how much $1 trillion really is. Such large-scale economic matters are often discussed in terms of trillions, but how many people really understand how much a trillion is?

Let's say you've been told you have to wait for something very special for one million seconds. How long would your wait be? A little more than eleven and a half days. But what if you had to wait for one billion seconds? Well, you'd be waiting a little longer: try almost thirty-two years.

And for one trillion seconds? We'll round it off to 31,700 years. Kind of takes your breath away, doesn't it? (Then again, it's always nice to have something to look forward to...)

---

If you aren't familiar with the Fair Tax or have never heard of it, please take time to either read both books on The Fair Tax, or visit http://www.fairtax.org - I truly believe that if the Fair Tax were enacted, our economy would be in awesome shape, businesses would come back home, and companies overseas would be moving their companies here to take advantage of not having to embed taxes in their costs.