NEW Lucy Poll

Here's a Lucy poll with a more exhaustive set of options, since many have indicated their favorites were not included in the last poll. So let's see some votes!

Brad Chambers

I do like a nice clean LesserXLesser BEL!!!

Lesser all the way

Lesser!!!

The other white meat!! BlackELs

This poll will be much more informative, the blue eyes are already running away with it.

Alice, post an updated pic of your little boy and show these guys the best lucy I've seen.....

Ive already posted but i want to ad on, its not just the lesser Bel that i like, its what they make. I would 100% want a clutch of all lessers/ butters/ Mojaves than a whole clutch of fires. Out of all of those i still prefer lessers, but fires just cost more, and it stops there. The likeness factor is Zero to me, although im rather fond of the pastel fire.

And one question, if i bred a lesser/ mojave bel to a butter bel, could i get a bel that would have all three?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

And one question, if i bred a lesser/ mojave bel to a butter bel, could i get a bel that would have all three?

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No. You would get a lesser/butter BEL or a mojave/butter BEL.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Ive already posted but i want to ad on, its not just the lesser Bel that i like, its what they make. I would 100% want a clutch of all lessers/ butters/ Mojaves than a whole clutch of fires. Out of all of those i still prefer lessers, but fires just cost more, and it stops there. The likeness factor is Zero to me, although im rather fond of the pastel fire.

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Actually, even though I have FIREs, I'd agree with you-by themselves they are a less striking morph than the Butters, Lessers, and Mojaves.

BUT-look what they do when when crossed with other morphs. The Pastel FIRE adult is one of the, if not THE, most striking visual morphs out there! And the FIRE has the same effect on other morphs-it reverses the "normal" ball python color progression. Instead of getting duller and more muted as they age, they get brighter and more colorful. That's why, IMO, even though FIREs are an expensive morph, I feel they are actually underpriced.

Brad Chambers

My baby Fire Pastel. A million times brighter in the flesh and after just shedding yesterday getting brighter all the time. You have to see these in the flesh, just like the Black BELs to appreciate them. I'm sure many that have voted have not had one of the Black BELs next to another BEL to see how much whiter they are, either that or they have seen poor examples!!
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...8/FOGFP015.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...8/FOGFP016.jpg
Paul

Wow Paul-what a screamer!:O

I'm saving my nicest pastel female to put with my male FIRE later this month. Crossing my fingers (and everything else!)....

Brad Chambers

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Originally Posted by BChambers

Wow Paul-what a screamer!:O

I'm saving my nicest pastel female to put with my male FIRE later this month. Crossing my fingers (and everything else!)....

Brad Chambers

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Cheers Brad. Can't wait to see how she looks in 6 months!!! All the very best with your plans, hope you get a little beauty :D
Paul

If it weren't for the yellow blotches I'd bet the black eye's would have a lot more fanfare. And for me the blue eyes on the lesser bel are amazing.

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Originally Posted by BChambers

That's why, IMO, even though FIREs are an expensive morph, I feel they are actually underpriced.

Brad Chambers

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Agree completely on fires being great to combine with anything, but I hope you're wrong about it being underpriced and the price drops as more snakes become available.

I'd really like to add one to my collection in the next few years at about half the current price.

I voted Russo, when older they get a patternless white to them, they are awesome. I know VPI has an 07 for sale (called white diamond) and also Graziani has Russo BELs for sale.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

If it weren't for the yellow blotches I'd bet the black eye's would have a lot more fanfare. And for me the blue eyes on the lesser Bel are amazing.

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Yeah, the yellow blotched turn me off. Its the same with the Ivory i think, if they did not have a purple- yellow stripe id have one. They are affordable too considering the other white morphs.

I actually love the black-eyes with the yellow blotches. The more the merrier I think.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch Art

I actually love the black-eyes with the yellow blotches. The more the merrier I think.

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I don't know what you guys mean about the blotches-the black eyes that I've seen have been pure white-same for most of those I've seen pictured n the books. I guess occasionally some with yellow pigment occur, but on the whole the FIRE Lucy is said to be second only to the Russo in whiteness...

Brad Chambers

The crossing potential is huge with a Fire/Black eyed Lucy! With so many lineage of white snakes, the yellow blotching ads nice contrast:D

Are all the answers to the poll based on actually seeing first hand, IN PERSON, each of the Leucistic lineages? To be honest, I have no idea which is best, or most brilliantly white, because I've never seen one. Pictures are deceiving, and it seems most ppl's opinion is based on someone else's opinion.

Can we get some good, honest pictures on here comparing and contrasting all the lines of BEL? Young pics, adult pics, anything?

I would love to know which is the best patternless bleach white line.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

Are all the answers to the poll based on actually seeing first hand, IN PERSON, each of the Leucistic lineages? To be honest, I have no idea which is best, or most brilliantly white, because I've never seen one. Pictures are deceiving, and it seems most ppl's opinion is based on someone else's opinion.

Can we get some good, honest pictures on here comparing and contrasting all the lines of BEL? Young pics, adult pics, anything?

I would love to know which is the best patternless bleach white line.

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From the Barker book:

"The super Russo is a blue-eyed leucistic called the White Diamond, probably the whitest of the variety of ball pythons".

I've never personally seen a Russo "in the flesh"-though they look great in pics. I HAVE seen a couple of super Fires, and some lesser lucys. The least white FIRE was whiter than the whitest lesser. That's only my experience, but it jibes with what I have heard from other experienced breeders.

Brad Chambers

Bugger!!! This is what I mean... it's so hard to make a decision on what Het Leucistic to buy when everyone has a different opinion.

I guess I'll just have to buy the whitest Leucistic I can find and advertize it as "the best" since you can never tell with a Het.

This is bunk. *bangs head against the wall*

Again, where is the "all of the above" option? I cannot choose one over another...I love them all for their intrinsic differences, and they're all beautiful in their own right.

It's SUCH a great time to be working with ball python morphs! :)

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Originally Posted by KLG

Again, where is the "all of the above" option? I cannot choose one over another...I love them all for their intrinsic differences, and they're all beautiful in their own right.

It's SUCH a great time to be working with ball python morphs! :)

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I definitely agree. Most don't realize it, but I think that herpetoculturists 100 years from now will look back on this as a "Golden Age".

Brad Chambers

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Originally Posted by BChambers

I definitely agree. Most don't realize it, but I think that herpetoculturists 100 years from now will look back on this as a "Golden Age".

Brad Chambers

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Brad, you're absolutely correct. Not to take this too OT, but it's also scary to think that herpetoculturists 100 years from now will be extremely limited in terms of herps they're able to keep, as a result of anti-herp legislation & "animal rights" groups. If we don't all do our part now to speak up & protest against those wanting to severely regulate & limit what we can keep, there may not be a bright future for this hobby.

Imagine a world where we're not able to compare different types of ball python morphs, because nobody is allowed to keep them anymore...UGH!

Food for thought!

K~

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Originally Posted by KLG

Brad, you're absolutely correct. Not to take this too OT, but it's also scary to think that herpetoculturists 100 years from now will be extremely limited in terms of herps they're able to keep, as a result of anti-herp legislation & "animal rights" groups. If we don't all do our part now to speak up & protest against those wanting to severely regulate & limit what we can keep, there may not be a bright future for this hobby.

Imagine a world where we're not able to compare different types of ball python morphs, because nobody is allowed to keep them anymore...UGH!

Food for thought!

K~

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Well said!

question to anyone who own or have seen Super Lesser in person.

Do they "all" have buck eyes...like eyes kinda poping out? I know it's a fact that they do have 2 extra scales on the forehead(do ball python have forehead? :D) But the eyes bulging out rumour's kinda interesting. The guy told me it's similar to Luecistic rat snake that got buck eyes.

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Originally Posted by hgrub

question to anyone who own or have seen Super Lesser in person.

Do they "all" have buck eyes...like eyes kinda poping out? I know it's a fact that they do have 2 extra scales on the forehead(do ball python have forehead? :D) But the eyes bulging out rumour's kinda interesting. The guy told me it's similar to Luecistic rat snake that got buck eyes.

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That's another issue-perhaps the reason that the blue eyed Lucys look kind of "goofy" (for want of a better word) to me is the slight bulge to the eyes many have. They don't seem to all have it, but I'd say the majority I've seen do. This and the pupil of the eye being slightly off-center seems a bugaboo common to all forms of blue-eyed leucistic snakes (like the aforementioned Texas rat snakes). This doesn't seem to happen with the black-eyes, whose head/eye proportions look entirely normal.

Some also seem to have a "duckbill" effect to the snout, which may be more an effect of inbreeding than the particular genetics of the morph. I say this because that look is also common to other highly inbred lines (like super Cinnamon, for example-take look at the illustration on pg. 167 of "The Complete Ball Python)... At any rate, it is something that can probably be ameliorated by outcrossing to different Platinum complex lines.

Brad Chambers

a pink nose..blue eyed white bp..
http://www.fototime.com/1E7862C1013D154/standard.jpg

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Originally Posted by KLG

Again, where is the "all of the above" option? I cannot choose one over another...I love them all for their intrinsic differences, and they're all beautiful in their own right.

It's SUCH a great time to be working with ball python morphs! :)

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I was looking for that one too. They are all amazing!:bow:

I voted for the phantom/lesser lucy. I just feel thats a very powerful combo with the phantom gene and lesser gene all wrapped in one.

Black-eyed is the best IMO...too many blue eyed and the first ball python morph I ever saw which got me into the whole ball python craze is right here http://constrictors.com/ and to this day I will get it. Yellow blotches never seen one with it.

Also is fire compatible with lesser? Wonder what that would look like.

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Black-eyed is the best IMO...
<snip>..... Yellow blotches never seen one with it.

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Hi,

Isn't this one? Not my photo or even my arrow just found it while browsing.



del

I saw one recently on KS, it had huge DARK yellow blotches all over its back. It does matter who you buy from... I'm sure there are Black Eyed Leucistics that don't have the yellow splotches, but you just can't tell from Fires alone. You gotta see what they produce, and who produces them.

That one belong to casey Lazik. I've talked to him on the phone about that Black eye lucy too. He said he's not really sure on why they have various amount of orange blotch on the body. I mean anyone got info from other people who produce black eye lucy on the orange blotch theory?

My guess is it's a random thing like white on Pied. I don't know....

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Originally Posted by hgrub

That one belong to casey Lazik. I've talked to him on the phone about that Black eye lucy too. He said he's not really sure on why they have various amount of orange blotch on the body. I mean anyone got info from other people who produce black eye lucy on the orange blotch theory?

My guess is it's a random thing like white on Pied. I don't know....

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That's true-but it isn't just black-eyed Lucys. It's obvious that the amount of yellow coloration also varies greatly in the platinum complex snakes.

Unfortunately it often is not possible to see a Lucy from the particular line you're buying from...I got animals from the Davies line because I had previously seen VERY white leucisidtics from this line.

Brad, is there any different between Clark line's Fire and Davies(or other line)? I'm talking about appearance of the Fire.

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Originally Posted by hgrub

Brad, is there any different between Clark line's Fire and Davies(or other line)? I'm talking about appearance of the Fire.

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I'm not certain about Clark line, but I've seen fairly major differences between the "look" of various lines. The Davies line actually seems to show both more black and brighter yellows than some others I've seen....

I know Bob Clark and Mike Wilbanks got there original fires from Eric Davies. Maybe selective breeding has made some line differences already but the mutation part should be the same.

I did get to see one that was sold as a possible new line fire from Amir and heard that it was later confirmed to be a fire (didn't get the details of how confirmed, presumably made a white snake). I'm by no means an expert on the original (or any) line but the Amir animal I saw seemed brighter and more wild patterned than I expected from a fire but maybe it was just individual variation and also I've never actually seen the Davies line fire in person.

Here is a link to an ad for the snake referenced above. I think I will stick with the lesser x lesser lucy. I know not all black eyeds have yellow blotches to this extreme but a PURE white one seems to be very rare.
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=566237

I saw that ad while browsing kingsnake today. Great example of the yellow blotching:gj:

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Here is a link to an ad for the snake referenced above. I think I will stick with the lesser x lesser lucy. I know not all black eyeds have yellow blotches to this extreme but a PURE white one seems to be very rare.
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=32&de=566237

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Wow-that's the most yellow I've ever seen on a black-eyed! That FIRE pictured appears to be different line from the one I'm working with (thank goodness!).

However, once again I'll point out that yellow striping and blotching is at least as prevalent on Lesser X Lessers as on Bllack-Eyed Lucys (in fact, from what I've always seen & heard, more so).

I picked the black eyed fire lucies... although my immediate plans wre for an ivory, they were the first lucies I saw, and I still love the smudgey faces they have. And the pastel ivory... absolutely love it.

I'd like to see more pictures of Leucistics, both Black Eyed and Blue Eyed. If anyone can put as good of quality pictures of their Leucistics as that KS ad, I'd love to see them. I've seen too many pictures of baby Leucistics... you can't tell from that. Show us some sub-adult or adult pictures. I'm dying here.

And real pictures... no photoshopped black hazy backgrounds or perfectly lit white surfaces... I'd just like to see a real Leucistic.

will post pic of my lesser/mojave next week once I get him. ;)

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

I'd like to see more pictures of Leucistics, both Black Eyed and Blue Eyed. If anyone can put as good of quality pictures of their Leucistics as that KS ad, I'd love to see them. I've seen too many pictures of baby Leucistics... you can't tell from that. Show us some sub-adult or adult pictures. I'm dying here.

And real pictures... no photoshopped black hazy backgrounds or perfectly lit white surfaces... I'd just like to see a real Leucistic.

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Check out the other "Lucy Poll" thread-there's a good example of a FIRE Lucy posted there...

i like the ivory the most. while they might not be super clean... i like the fact that they have the yellow stripe down the back. does this hold on into adulthood?