Where will morphs be in a few years

I know someone who says that paying so much for a ball morph is pointless because in a few years they will be like corn morphs. Can find all under $100. Apparently corn morphs used to be over $1000 when they were first produced. I don't know anything about that because I am not into corns. But do you really think that ball python morphs will really go as cheap as corn snake morphs, all being under $100???

look at pastels. on reptile radio they were talkin how the first was about 2000, now there under 100 sometimes

Think if it like this with all the corn morphs out there they were all created with 12 base mutations. Will we see ball morphs at 100 buck sure. Now look at the ball morphs there are some thing like 66 current known base ball morphs we have just barely scratched the surface as to the possibility's of ball morphs and combos. Will we see all ball morphs and combos around 100 but yep..But not FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS. there are some thing like 400 million different combo possibility's with the current 66 base morphs.

I think the future of the codominant morphs is simple and will follow the same trend as leopard geckos have (Mack snows) - the base genetics will become cheap, but combination morphs and selectively bred, stunning examples of a base morph will retain a much higher value. A pastel that browns out heavily and is almost indistinguishable from a normal at adulthood will wind up being worth about the same as a normal eventually... but one that's been bred from a line that stays bright and clear coloured will be a lot more valuable - not just because they're nice looking in themselves, but they will also improve the results when they're bred for combinations.

And I don't see a Butter Super Pastel Spider Pinstripe Granite Albino going for pennies any time soon either.

Recessive morphs will reduce in price slowly - they're harder to produce, since you need two gene carriers to tango - it'll be a long time before you can pick up an Albino Royal for £50.

Keep in mind also that not ALL corn morphs are less than £100 - there are still base morphs which have quite a high value as they're not very widely spread yet. But we'll see rapid decreases in prices on corns faster than royals simply because corns routinely lay clutches much larger than royals do - so a quadruple homozygous recessive morph is just a matter of picking the right breeding stock and having a bit of luck. I have a pair now that have 1:4 odds of producing double homozygous offspring, 1:16 odds of producing triple homozygous and 1:64 odds of producing a quadruple - Amelanistic Anerythristic Lavender Stripe, AKA "Glacier Stripe". Not EASY odds, but well within the realms of possibility for a 16-egg clutch, and given that corns can pop out thirty AND double clutch successfully, I'd put reasonable money on hatching out at least one Glacier Stripe in my breeding female's lifetime and possibly within the first two or three years she's bred.

I wouldn't place that bet if I was talking royal pythons and the same quadruple-homozygous animal!

I still see Ball base morphs as a good investment. I always buy for the particular snake, because I can't live without That snake. But that aside.. let's say that I pay $700 for a base morph right now, a female. Let's be conservative and give her three years to grow before breeding. By then, her morph's price could be down to $100. But in the years to come (and maybe even that year) her babies should pay for her original price, not factoring in the price for care, etc. And combos by then using her, should definately not be too low; maybe around her original price? A snake that can be bred multiple times and years; its offspring make a nice return investment. This to me is why it's OK to spend a lot of money on one snake; not withstanding the fact that there are certain snakes that I bought that I could not have left the store/website without owning. That alone makes them worth their price to me :)
I believe that anyone who is willing to shell out money for animals now, with hopes of breeding them for profit later, shares my view. Unless you simply have to have that snake, now, and money is no object.
I cannot wait for my female morphs to be up-to breeding size, though. I believe that combos are the future! And double/triple/mega hets from respected breeders.

I think too, that with base morphs, quality will be a much larger deiciding factor once their prices drop more. Someone who was before willing to plunk down a little money for just any pastel, just to say that they owned one, will now be more discerning as better-looking animals' prices become more attainable to the average person.
I also think that adult morphs, ones that stand out, will still sell for nice prices. People get impatient and want something to breed Now. Others who are more educated on what morphs Should look like quality-wise, will hold back and buy only stellar examples of that morph.
I unfortunately also predict a glut of lower-quality animals that I am not sure where they will end up. I am likening it to horse breedings, I think; go look up horse rescues, or horse slaughter, and see how many unwanted horses have gone to that end. Yet top trained show or race horses can sell for thousands, and even millions!

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I unfortunately also predict a glut of lower-quality animals that I am not sure where they will end up. I am likening it to horse breedings, I think; go look up horse rescues, or horse slaughter, and see how many unwanted horses have gone to that end. Yet top trained show or race horses can sell for thousands, and even millions!

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I agree there will be a glut of pet quality morphs and normal snakes, but don't know if it has to be a problem for anyone but the African snake export business.

I plan to support my BP habit by breeding and selling beautiful morph combos, and see being able to bring low-cost simple visual morphs to entry-level snake lovers at the same time as a benefit.

Why stock import normals in your pet shop if you can buy a healthy $50 visual morph, or $5 normal from a local breeder instead?

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Originally Posted by RKO

I know someone who says that paying so much for a ball morph is pointless because in a few years they will be like corn morphs. Can find all under $100. Apparently corn morphs used to be over $1000 when they were first produced. I don't know anything about that because I am not into corns. But do you really think that ball python morphs will really go as cheap as corn snake morphs, all being under $100???

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I call this ball python hating.

When you buy a brand new car it drops dramatically in value when you drive it out of the dealership. Why did you buy it then?
Because you like it. Not to mention a car can't produce more cars.

I buy a certain snake because I like it, breeding it in the future and selling some of the offspring is just a bonus. If you just want to make $ on an investment there are much better avenues to follow that are more secure and do not involve living breathing creatures.

If all you care about are future values maybe you should ask yourself why are you doing this?

Price for morph will drop, but if you get it now in stead of 3 years later then you won't feel like you're losing money though.

Let say from my own experience...female Caramel Albino :D If you wait three years yeah its price will drop but the price for 3 years old female Caramel Albino will still be high. I got mine in December '06 for $x,xxx, now she's 1,300 grams and will be ready later this year. Last time I saw advertise on 1,000+ grams female Caramel Albino, the price tag is way higher than I paid for mine and that price is close to other sellers' price tag for 3 years old female caramel. Hope you understand my English.

Last time I post something about ball python price I got slap by negative point(the guy didn't even leave the name though), hope I don't get hit agian this time lol

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

If all you care about are future values maybe you should ask yourself why are you doing this?

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You hit the nail in the head

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

If all you care about are future values maybe you should ask yourself why are you doing this?

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I disagree. Future value is the most important thing with ANYTHING you buy. Now this doesnt always return in the form of money, but in some way you way the current pros/cons and the future pros/cons for everything...No one buys a $100,000 ball python (Toffee Ball) to not care what he or she will be able to make in a few years.

Also a fact that most people just dont seem to get. Not all cars depreciate. It all has to do with supply and demand, the rarer the car the more expensive it gets. Look at Lamborghini, Ferrari or hell every car on Barret Jackson. Now sure the camry will depreciate, because after 40million are sold and the new version comes out everyone wants to sell and to make the sell they sell lower and eventually the price goes from there.

my 2cents

Do you not think that is what is going to happen when the base morphs are replaced by combos and so forth???

With so many new breeders out there base morphs will keep dropping, but I don't think it will effect breeders or the hobby in a negative way, in the long run. It took a decade for albinos to hit the $1,000 mark retail, and pieds are still $3,000 after all these years. So what if pieds are $500 in 7 years? Combos like the Inferno pied will still be out of reach for most people. Corns can lay more than 10x the eggs in a season than ball pythons, and the corn morph market never had the demand that the ball python market has. The demand is growing, and even if there are hundreds of breeders out there, it's not nearly enough to make all the high end, high demand combos and new base morphs. In 20 years when the inferno pied is under $1,000, I'll still be able to list a billion other combos that will be demanding higher prices. The supply and the timeline for producing high end pythons won't ever come close to meeting the demand. Not with so many base morphs and such slim odds of hitting that 1:16 or 1:64 shot.

Plus, ball pythons can breed for 20 years. I think it was Tim Bailey who said that it's stupid to think you're going to lose money on an expensive morph in the long run (Comepletely paraphrased). If you bought an $8,000 BEL to realize they dropped in price by 90% by the time you breed yours, you will still make a ton of money. Breed it to 5 normal females the first year, get 30 lessers at $400 a pop and you've made $12,000 the first year. Everything you do with the original BEL for the next 19 years is all profit.

sadly no. i think that with in 10years all morphs will be able to be bought at petsmart. mark my words. 2018. just like all other reptiles they sell. rember when leo geckos were a ton of money. now 20-50 bucks buys you what ever you want. i do believe that the most money that will be made in balls will be when all morphs hit 1k and under. the people with 500 pieds to sell when they hit 1k will make a ton of money over night. my advice is to breed breed breed. keep as many females as your space will let you.
and if you are just in this because you like them as pets. and are pissed that you cant afford certin things. all i can say is save your money over the next 2-3 years anything you want now that is way to pricy will be more than affordable in 2-3 years.

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Originally Posted by Emilio

I call this ball python hating.

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He asked a question about the price of ball python morphs.....where is his post is he "ball python hating"

Sorry I might be more irritated than normal I just got my wisdom teeth pulled this morning but I felt like your post could have been left out..

Now back on topic I think they will continue to drop....but the new morphs that come out start at a high price so as long as people/breeders continue to produce new high end morphs there will still be a great market for them. BP's have an advantage over lets say larger snake morphs (burms, tics ect). Because they don't have the as large of clutches as these big snakes do.

Every year more and more people are producing BP's but as long as more and more people are coming into the hobby the market will stay strong. But prices almost always fall as the market becomes saturated.


Mike

when i buy a morph, i do not really care what its price will be in the future. I just bought a lesser, hopefully by next season he will be ready to breed, and im expecting the market to be around $600 for them or even less, i love lessers that much, or even ALOT less then it is now, and i still got him. The pastel is cheap, but it still makes great combos.


But what if some hidden gene is discovered? The lessers price might skyrocket?

Doubt it, but you know what, a good breeder will not care, he will be focusing on how to better the quality and be happy that he has the chance to breed at all. Look at puppy mills, all they care about is how much they can make, and look at good backyard breeders, they care about lineage and not selling sick animals and making sure the buyer is happy with what they are getting, and the buyer does not have to worry about the puppy getting sick from being inbred or parasites.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

when i buy a morph, i do not really care what its price will be in the future. I just bought a lesser, hopefully by next season he will be ready to breed, and im expecting the market to be around $600 for them or even less, i love lessers that much, or even ALOT less then it is now, and i still got him. The pastel is cheap, but it still makes great combos.


But what if some hidden gene is discovered? The lessers price might skyrocket?

Doubt it, but you know what, a good breeder will not care, he will be focusing on how to better the quality and be happy that he has the chance to breed at all. Look at puppy mills, all they care about is how much they can make, and look at good backyard breeders, they care about lineage and not selling sick animals and making sure the buyer is happy with what they are getting, and the buyer does not have to worry about the puppy getting sick from being inbred or parasites.

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The lesser already has a suplimental hidden gene to make the platty daddy. It's one of the only morphs that does, and it's already well known.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

The lesser already has a suplimental hidden gene to make the platty daddy. It's one of the only morphs that does, and it's already well known.

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well, if its known, then its not hidden?


A NEW Hidden gene:P

Not really the reason i made the post too...

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Originally Posted by 8b8ll

He asked a question about the price of ball python morphs.....where is his post is he "ball python hating"

Sorry I might be more irritated than normal I just got my wisdom teeth pulled this morning but I felt like your post could have been left out..

Now back on topic I think they will continue to drop....but the new morphs that come out start at a high price so as long as people/breeders continue to produce new high end morphs there will still be a great market for them. BP's have an advantage over lets say larger snake morphs (burms, tics ect). Because they don't have the as large of clutches as these big snakes do.

Every year more and more people are producing BP's but as long as more and more people are coming into the hobby the market will stay strong. But prices almost always fall as the market becomes saturated.


Mike

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No offense taken I just love ball pythons and think it's dumb to think these amazing reptiles will be just like corns in the future. If you don't think there is alot of hating going on your not paying enough attention, I hope you do not take offense to my post. Alot of people are leaving shows pissed about how many ball pythons they saw explain that.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

when i buy a morph, i do not really care what its price will be in the future. I just bought a lesser, hopefully by next season he will be ready to breed, and im expecting the market to be around $600 for them or even less, i love lessers that much, or even ALOT less then it is now, and i still got him. The pastel is cheap, but it still makes great combos.


But what if some hidden gene is discovered? The lessers price might skyrocket?

Doubt it, but you know what, a good breeder will not care, he will be focusing on how to better the quality and be happy that he has the chance to breed at all. Look at puppy mills, all they care about is how much they can make, and look at good backyard breeders, they care about lineage and not selling sick animals and making sure the buyer is happy with what they are getting, and the buyer does not have to worry about the puppy getting sick from being inbred or parasites.

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Umm a breeder is in it to make money...a hobbyist however might not care.

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

rember when leo geckos were a ton of money. now 20-50 bucks buys you what ever you want.

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Kinda disagree with you on the leopard gecko comment. Price on Tremper Albino drop way quickly but gecko can produce multiple clutches each season and they can start breeding once they're one year old.

"Plus", there're many new morph/combo leopard gecko come out every years, of course the price for based morph drop but new morph/combo still command high dollar for. Just like someone already point that out about ball python.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

The lesser already has a suplimental hidden gene to make the platty daddy. It's one of the only morphs that does, and it's already well known.

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I thought Ralph said on his website that "only normal looking animals that Platty Daddy produce" can breed back to Platty(or to something)and produce more Platty Daddy(I love this name lol)

I might be wrong though. :)

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Originally Posted by hgrub

Kinda disagree with you on the leopard gecko comment. Price on Tremper Albino drop way quickly but gecko can produce multiple clutches each season and they can start breeding once they're one year old.

"Plus", there're many new morph/combo leopard gecko come out every years, of course the price for based morph drop but new morph/combo still command high dollar for. Just like someone already point that out about ball python.

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ok i will give you that. BUT (LOL)
90% of the geckos sold go for under 100 bucks. who wants to pay 45 dollors in shipping on a 100 dollor animal. that is why most of the people that make great money with leos are doing the same thing the corn snake people have to do. they hit a ton of shows.

It is simple as can be, SUPPLY & DEMAND!!!! No matter how much wishing fighting begging soap box screaming shouting :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r:ing moaning nothing will prevent this from happening! unless you increase the demand to surpass the supply or reduce the supply under the demand!!! SIMPLE ECONOMICS!!!!

so if you are one of those people like a lot of us that have a lot of money in ball pythons. do what only a few people are doing. trying to get more people involved with these awesome :snake:. insted of slinging crap in each others faces with all the bs argewing that drives people away. in the end these people are going to be the ones to blame. some of the people that are the worst about doing this you dont hear to much from any more. wich is the only thing that will save ball pythons in the long run.


Just my $0.02 :gj:

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Originally Posted by hgrub

I thought Ralph said on his website that "only normal looking animals that Platty Daddy produce" can breed back to Platty(or to something)and produce more Platty Daddy(I love this name lol)

I might be wrong though. :)

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dont worry the platty is a confusing thing. i guarentee you that with out asking someone else or looking it up. 90% of people dont know what a platty even is. and less than 1% of the people that do know what it is, know how the hell it is done. LOL :rofl:

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

unless you increase the demand to surpass the supply or reduce the supply under the demand!!!

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:whisper: Maybe you've heard of a little radio show called Reptile Radio or an internet tv show that's coming called Snakebytes TV

Call me silly, but I don't even think a significant percentage of the American population is even aware of ball python morphs. Once the word and excitement starts spreading, there's going to be more demand than supply.

i have listned to it since day numero uno. and that was not the first place that show was talked about. it has ben on BHBs my space longer.
any thing else smart to say???
AWESOME video
thanks for posting it.

it is a little sad that it is only a internet show. i wish it was going to be on animal planet. so people outside the reptile world would know about it.

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

i have listned to it since day numero uno. and that was not the first place that show was talked about. it has ben on BHBs my space for a longer.
any thing else smart to say???
AWESOME video
thanks for posting it.

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Did I say the show was talked about on Reptile Radio? And why the hostility? I made a counter argument that I believe that BOTH Reptile Radio and the Snakebytes TV are going to generate a lot of interest in ball pythons and ball python morphs. Thereby increasing demand.

Do you disagree and if so, why? Instead of asking me if I have anything else "smart to say", why don't you engage in a civil discussion. Did I say something in my post that offended you? :confuzd:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

I made a counter argument

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i guess i just dont like to argue in public. you are right bhb is going to do things no one else has ever done before and he is going to sell a lot of snakes because of it. and a lot of others will sell a lot of snakes due to the publicty that he brings to the market.


but the comment i made a few posts back is that even you and me on a small level can make a difference. by just not driveing away a lot of the people that come to fourms and see nothing but fighting.


i just watched that video again and it is great.
thanks for posting it again.

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

but the comment i made a few posts back is that even you and me on a small level can make a difference. by just not driveing away a lot of the people that come to fourms and see nothing but fighting.

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Hmmmm, I wasn't fighting....were you? :weirdface

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Originally Posted by West Coast Jungle

I buy a certain snake because I like it, breeding it in the future and selling some of the offspring is just a bonus. If you just want to make $ on an investment there are much better avenues to follow that are more secure and do not involve living breathing creatures.

If all you care about are future values maybe you should ask yourself why are you doing this?

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Bingo! Awesome post. :)

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Do you not think that is what is going to happen when the base morphs are replaced by combos and so forth???

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Well said, the multitude of possible different combos is mind boggling, new corn snake combos are still being made today and ball pythons don't lay 30 eggs twice in a season!

Not a single person on this board will ever see all possible combos made in their lifetime and this, you can take to the bank:D

Marc

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Umm a breeder is in it to make money...a hobbyist however might not care.

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What i mean is the breeder will not care only about the prices;)

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

ok i will give you that. BUT (LOL)
90% of the geckos sold go for under 100 bucks. who wants to pay 45 dollors in shipping on a 100 dollor animal. that is why most of the people that make great money with leos are doing the same thing the corn snake people have to do. they hit a ton of shows.

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kinda agree with that, but maybe it's more like 65% of existing morphs have that price tag, I'm not arguing ok? I happen to agre with you on some degree :)
[/QUOTE]

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so if you are one of those people like a lot of us that have a lot of money in ball pythons. do what only a few people are doing. trying to get more people involved with these awesome :snake:. insted of slinging crap in each others faces with all the bs argewing that drives people away. in the end these people are going to be the ones to blame. some of the people that are the worst about doing this you dont hear to much from any more. wich is the only thing that will save ball pythons in the long run.

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Totally agree on this. What I'm doing right now is aducating people in Thailand on how to keep ball python the right way(most of them take their ball python out every day for sun bathing which they claim it's a good source for heat and UV??? I also bringing in new morph into Thailand, so people will know that there're morphs other than Albino, Spider, and Pastel. Demand in morph ball python have been up in the past year since I start doing this.

:)

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Originally Posted by mricyfire

Umm a breeder is in it to make money...a hobbyist however might not care.

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This is true to a certain extent. If you buy from someone that is ONLY interested in making $ then you will be disapointed.

You mention a $100,000 morph. How many people do think are in the market for a snake that expensive? Now how many people are in the market for lets say a $2,000 morph, $1,000 morph or $500 morph. I feel the lower prices are the more people will be buying them and the industry will grow. I don't buy into all the negativity.

All breeders started out as hobbyist or maybe still are. The ones that stand the test of time are the ones that care for the animals first and $ second. People that are in it just to make a $ soon get out because is not as easy as buy a snake breed him and sell him. I hatched over 75 animals this year and sold most of them and yes I like to make $ as anyone else does but that is not the only reason I have animals. Also just cuz you have animals doesn't mean they are gonna breed, survive or sell. Reputation, knowledge(animal and business) experience, patience, quality animals and contacts have alot to do with it. If all you care about is $ then cleaning snake poop and rat tubs will get old fast and as I said before there are lots of other investment opportunities that are much safer and secure.

I buy what I like because I feel others will like them too(and they will sell), not what their resale value is going to be. In the long run my animals will produce many offspring and eventually I will recoup my investments. The get rich quick mentality is what is killing this industry.

Maybe you should try breeding for profit and then you can give some pertenent advice.

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Originally Posted by MATT FISHER REPTILES

i guess i just dont like to argue in public.

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Sounded like a discussion to me..............on the other hand this is public forum, this is were you discuss these things.


:confused:

As long as we keep stupid laws from being passed, our hobby will grow! The only problem i see, is the more people that get into the hobby, the more scumbags will follow!

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Originally Posted by reediculous

As long as we keep stupid laws from being passed, our hobby will grow!

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That battle is being lost.... animal rights groups who want all ownership banned are winning

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Originally Posted by Sputnik

That battle is being lost.... animal rights groups who want all ownership banned are winning

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This is where we should put our focus!

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Originally Posted by reediculous

This is where we should put our focus!

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I disagree..Our focus should be to educate the law makers and the general public. The only reason law makers think reptiles and snakes in particular are in such great need of legislation is because that is what they are being told by the people that want such laws passed. If we as a learned herpetoculturist remove the ignorance,by way of education, surrounding the general public about reptiles then we remove the animal rights groups teeth in this area. When Our law makers can look at some of these groups and make an educated and informed decision based on facts and not what they are told we will be better off on the whole.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I disagree..Our focus should be to educate the law makers and the general public. The only reason law makers think reptiles and snakes in particular are in such great need of legislation is because that is what they are being told by the people that want such laws passed. If we as a learned herpetoculturist remove the ignorance,by way of education, surrounding the general public about reptiles then we remove the animal rights groups teeth in this area. When Our law makers can look at some of these groups and make an educated and informed decision based on facts and not what they are told we will be better off on the whole.

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thats what i mean...........you just broke it down better! :D

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Originally Posted by reediculous

thats what i mean...........you just broke it down better! :D

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Sweet!

It takes money more then education to fight a proposed ban that becomes a bill in any house....

what's this law thing you guys are talking about, in what state? Is it a similar thing ti giant python law in Florida?

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Originally Posted by hgrub

what's this law thing you guys are talking about, in what state? Is it a similar thing ti giant python law in Florida?

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Here is a statement by Andrew or NCARK
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Our #1 enemy, without a doubt, is the Animal Protection Institute (API) and a woman by the name of Nicole Paquette. If you haven't heard of them you need to start paying attention. Nicole is a world class AR attorney employed by API. She has gotten her exotic animal ban passed in IL, NY, KS, KY, WA. She has bills pending in IA, NE, IN, OH, OR and NC. They are currently targeting PA, SC, WV and others. If they haven't gotten to your state you better get off your butt and get involved and organized or you will get mowed down. They are well funded and organized at the national level. They are supported by the most powerful AR group in the world... the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS). HSUS is not the animal shelter down the street. They have nothing to do with your local Humane Society. They are strictly animal rights! They want to end all animal ownership and use.

These two groups have been having their way with state legislatures around the country since 2000. Without organized opposition with the ability to activate a grass roots movement and fund a serious lobbying effort, it is only a matter of time. That hasn't been happening... untill now! For more than 2 years NCARK has recruited members, raised funds, made political alliances with other animal interests and pertinent state agencies, sustained a significant grass roots effort, and hired the attorneys and lobbyists we have needed to fight fire with fire. And we have been very successful in thwarting the advances of API. They have spent big money and lots of time in NC... and they are losing. We have created a successful model for other states to attain similar results. We have spun off a sister organization... SC Association of Reptile Keepers (SCARK). We think this is a model we can use at the national level.

We propose creating a non-profit tax exempt organization called the American Association of Reptile Keepers (ARK). The ARK would be an umbrella organization to organize and advise state chapters addressing issues specific to the individual state. We could raise funds at the national level and direct them to where they are needed most... just like the AR activists. We are reaching out to everyone in the herp community, big and small, to get involved.
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http://www.ncark.org/index.htm

This isn't recent, but you get the drift?

erm...no not really. But I'm thick so it's not surprising lol

What exactly kind of law are they trying to pass in term of ball python related? Are they going to prohibit keeping of ball python or just making law that you all have to register or something?

This is interesting.

They want everything banned

That's huge man.

This kind of thing enrages me. They'll take my snakes from my cold, dead hands (same with my guns.) I read a little bit about the proposed ARK foundation; if anyone has more info on that, please post or PM me. This is completely an outrage. That's "freedom" for ya.. one more thing that is harmless to the community that these idiots want to ban. I go to work everyday, earn an honest living, come home and enjoy my snakes, and now there are "people" out there that want to take that away..