Why do people have to get on your case?

I feed my corn snake and king snake frozen/thawed. We feed the ball pythons live because at the moment, that is what they will eat, and as long as they are eating, I am happy. We watch very carefully and will intervene with a metal rod or pencil to put in the mouse's mouth if it tries to bite the snake.

I was on a vegatarian/vegan site, responding to someone's post about rescuing a feeder rat pup at an expo. I mentioned that I have snakes and feed live and this guy starts bashing people who feed live. Another joins in as well and both are stating that ANY and ALL snakes can be fed frozen/thawed prey and it is the keeper's fault that it imprints on live food.

Any thoughts or helpful information I could pass on to these people about snakes and live feedings?

what about nature? whats different. i mean what about crickets? there lame! forget em

Maybe that its the way God made snakes. They have an instinct to kill and eat rodents. he gave them teeth, sensors to detect LIVE warm blooded prey, strong coils, etc. not built in defrosters.

yeah wheres natures freezer of mice?

You have to understand that this is forum of animal loving people. They don't like to see any animal get hurt. If I were to say its nature's way, they would argue that it is against nature for me to keep them and then the whole discussion would fall apart. Sometimes I dislike people that are like this but then again I can understand where they are coming from. I do not like causing harm to any animal, but nature says "Snake must eat" so I give the snake what nature designed for them to eat. I feed live because I get a good feeding response and the mice are dead within 30sec anyway.

word!!

What I don't understand about this is that whether it is live or f/t, it's going to die. I love animals, and it makes me sad when my bp kills the mouse, but I would rather it die a natural way from nature, than to watch someone smash its head in, then freeze it for later. I just feel it's more humane for the mouse if it's fed live.

Just my thought, the majority i believe purchase there feeders from people who breed these rodents for that purpose. So that is that particular animals fate so to speek, since if you or i didnt have the snake to feed it to there would be no need to breed them. So would these same people let rats run around there house, in there food and there beds? No they would call someone to come poison them! So what is the big difference?

I'm a vegetarian and I feed live... and I find it fascinating. But I'm weird like that.

I'm vegan and I feed live. lol.

Why are you letting it bother you? They probably don't even keep snakes and are just trying to make you look like the evil rat killer. I feed all of my snakes frozen/thawed except for the balls, most of which I feed live. You feed your snake what it's willing to eat. I've been keeping snakes for well over 20 years, and anyone who says that ANY SNAKE CAN BE TAUGHT TO FEED ON FROZEN/THAWED hasn't kept snakes for very long if at all. YES, some of my balls will eat frozen thawed just fine. And I've been able to feed all of them frozen thawed at least once, but I want my snakes to eat every time I feed them and not just once in a while. So, for the ball pythons that means feeding live. Just tell them that they're full of crap and be done with it, it's not worth your time to argue with them.

Mark

u tell those vegan sons a b**ches jk :rofl: that if there were no snakes in the world. there would be entirly to many rats and mice eating all of our produce at our farms, over running our houses, and making a general mess out of every thing. its God's law, eat or be eaten. its the circle of life. thats how us humans got to were we are. i personally dont like feeding live for a number of reasons (biting, mites, diseases, etc) but whats really great about live is that the mice may have proper neutriants within them that are great for your snake! and with every mouse eaten, its a step up in the evolutionary chart for them. and its one thing to kill a mouse just for the sake of killing it. but is another if it doesnt die in vane( to be eaten) and honestly to tell you the truth, if i had to die, i would prefer to be eaten by an animal of some sort as apposed to being shot or murdured. of corse i wold rather die of old age but if i had a choice of death for a reasonabe purpose (being eaten by an animal of some sort) or being muruderd of coarse i would choose to be eaten. but painless and short. ahhh. does any one agree with me? or am i just the wierdest person you have ever me?:rofl:

[QUOTE=pythontricker;669778]someone's post about rescuing a feeder rat pup at an expo[QUOTE]

What irks me about that mentality is that first of all... rats at expos are bought as feeders, breeders, and as pets.

So to say they *rescued* a feeder... when all they did was adopt a rat. Is just annoying.

You can cloak anything in value-laden language and make it a noble gesture.

I have a very narrow view of what a rescue consists of.

I once met a person that ran a reptile shelter, and was so pleased the day the new beardie took a piece of cooked chicken.

WTF?

Cooked... chicken?

And I agree with the poster that not all snakes will take f/t... I have 6 that would not eat vs. take a F/T. I feed live because I love animals. The option is to watch my snakes waste away.

The privilege of the *enlightened* will never cease to annoy me.

Probably didn't answer your question, but eh... gave me a chance to vent. :)

Bruce

Bruce, I totally agree with what you said. I had a friend that was beaming proud that they were telling everyone how they "rescued" a feeder rat from the pet store. In my mind, purchasing a rat from a pet store, breeder or what-have-you is NOT "rescuing" the rat! A rescue, to me, is going to the shelter, going to a rat RESCUE and adopting one of them, that are there specifically for rescuing. A rescue in my mind is much more than a simple pet store rat, or breeder rat. A rescue is an act of caring, an act of trying to help the shelter or rescue by taking a homeless animal off of their hands.

These people that are bashing us that feed live, are not worth the space that they take up in this world. I am a very peaceful person. I know what I do and do not like, do and do not agree with, but I don't shove those things in people's faces. I state opinions, and anyone is allowed to read or not read, listen or not listen, agree or don't. I don't care.

Oh, but, like Bruce stated...I do have reasons for feeding certain snakes live, too. My kingsnake would rather starve to death than try anything else, as would one of my boas. I'd rather have my snakes healthy, not dying of starvation just because they refuse f/t, pre-killed, stunned, brained, etc (i've tried it all).

I'm sorry if this response doesn't help, but I personally wouldn't let it get to me. Maybe I'm different. I'm just a friendly person with the mindset of, "Don't agree with me? Don't speak to me." ~ There are others out there, like us for instance, that will agree with you just fine. Don't worry about those that don't. :) Some people won't accept you, others WILL.

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Originally Posted by pythontricker

u tell those vegan sons a b**ches jk :rofl: that if there were no snakes in the world. there would be entirly to many rats and mice eating all of our produce at our farms, over running our houses, and making a general mess out of every thing. its God's law, eat or be eaten. its the circle of life. thats how us humans got to were we are. i personally dont like feeding live for a number of reasons (biting, mites, diseases, etc) but whats really great about live is that the mice may have proper neutriants within them that are great for your snake! and with every mouse eaten, its a step up in the evolutionary chart for them. and its one thing to kill a mouse just for the sake of killing it. but is another if it doesnt die in vane( to be eaten) and honestly to tell you the truth, if i had to die, i would prefer to be eaten by an animal of some sort as apposed to being shot or murdured. of corse i wold rather die of old age but if i had a choice of death for a reasonabe purpose (being eaten by an animal of some sort) or being muruderd of coarse i would choose to be eaten. but painless and short. ahhh. does any one agree with me? or am i just the wierdest person you have ever me?:rofl:

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I agree 100% ! I would rather die from an animal (some thing I love) than murdered in cold blood by some sicko! About the f/t and live, I've feed my snakes both my corn ate f/t fine (until I got a rotten batch from Pet Smart) and my bp ate f/t for about 2 months and started refusing it so I went back to live. Because of the rotten mice I only felt comfortable feeding f/t that I killed (the only reason I started f/t was a bite she received after tyring to eat a mouse alive). I'd much much rather have her kill the rat than me. I hate killing any animal, if we get a mouse I use a live trap and let it go out side, but I love my non human babies and I will do what ever it takes to keep them healthy and happy. This thread is reminds me of an article I read about a PETA nut job that fed his savannah monitor only lettuce to turn it in to a vegetarian!

Okay, I'm one of those that is against live feeding, yet ... I don't diss those that do so for reasons other than "That's just sooo cool" or "I feed live, cause that's what they'ld do in the wild" (uhm, anyone dropping live mice into their cats food bowl?).

The info that you should forward to comments made against live feeding should include an explanation as to the ignorance and hypocracy used by minority groups that should really zip it and stay way away from the subject.

I've been a vegan myself and supplemented (under family' doctor's supervision) what I couldn't get naturally due to my diet. Gave up after I got feeling sick and realized that there's a reason for humans being omnivorous.

All those supplements that I had been taking were tested using live rats and mice. In addition to that ... look around you ... all those nice finish coatings on your furniture, yupp, tested on live rodents. Household cleaners, fibers used to manufacture clothing, carpet, etc. ... list goes on and on about animal testing in order to support the health and convenience of vegans that throw a fit over feeding live rodents.

Unless those people that bashed you are living on bare ground with nothing but a reet roof to cover their heads, wearing nothing but their birthday suits under a grass skirt and get to whereever they need to go by walking (laquer used on bikes and fuel for vehicles is constantly being tested on live rodents) they are speaking with a forked tongue.

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Originally Posted by SoundUnsleep

(uhm, anyone dropping live mice into their cats food bowl?).

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OT, but at a CE lecture I went to once on several feline health topics, the speaker said that feeding live mice was probably the best diet out there for your cats....he then went on to say that nobody actually does this, and here are the commercial diets he recommends, etc, etc.

So....I've actually fed off a few extra mice to the cats, and they seem to really really like it. One of my bottle-children, who has never seen a live mouse in his life, has become fiercely predatory
fought quite savagely to defend his kill from the curious onlookers.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, I don't let them play and torment the mouse...if they don't kill it immediately, it goes to a snake. I have one cat who chases them, but doesn't seem to know how to kill them and he doesn't get to play anymore.

Well, when I say that she rescued it, she really did. Someone had put the rat pup in with a centipede/millipede (she can't remember which) and she said that the insect was acting very violently towards the rat pup, trampling it and such but not actually killing it. I guess I can understand her reasons behind that.

Jay look to the Bible for the answer,

"do not cast your pearls among swine"

So, tell them to go out into the wild and yell at every snake that is out there eating live prey. :)

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Originally Posted by jjspirko

Jay look to the Bible for the answer,

"do not cast your pearls among swine"

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I don't read the Bible, so I have absolutely no clue what that means.

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Originally Posted by Thunder Kat

. This thread is reminds me of an article I read about a PETA nut job that fed his savannah monitor only lettuce to turn it in to a vegetarian!

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Would that really work? I mean, don't they only eat meat? I would think it would starve to death. I wouldn't even think their bodies could do that.

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I don't read the Bible, so I have absolutely no clue what that means.

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"Pearls among swine" You dont know what that means? It's not just for the religious.

It means, dont waste your precious time, knowledge, etc (pearls) among the people, groups etc(swine) that don't appreciate or recognize it.

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In my mind, purchasing a rat from a pet store, breeder or what-have-you is NOT "rescuing" the rat! A rescue, to me, is going to the shelter, going to a rat RESCUE and adopting one of them, that are there specifically for rescuing. A rescue in my mind is much more than a simple pet store rat, or breeder rat. A rescue is an act of caring, an act of trying to help the shelter or rescue by taking a homeless animal off of their hands.

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THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT. That is defiantly one of my pet peeves. The term 'RESCUE' has become totally meaningless due to over usage and improper usage by too many people. It seems that in many cases, the word 'RESCUE' has come to mean 'Look at this animal I just bought from a pet store, I'll keep it in a bigger cage because I'm a better person then that foolish pet store clerk, so everybody give me praise and tell me what a wonderful person I am'.

Sorry to go off topic, but the misuse of words like that just irks me.

Mark

Ok, forgive me for my opinion. But you went out of your way to tell a bunch of vegans you regularly kill rodents to feed your pet and you're wondering why they're on your case??????
You wouldn't approach a bunch of Hindu's and tell them you only feed your dog fresh beef would you??
Live vs F/T is a hot button topic in the herp world. I can't imagine the uproar from discussing that topic with people who think eating an unfertilized egg is ethically wrong lol!

Someone else started the conversation about feeding live. All I mentioned was that I kept snakes, then someone says something against feeding live and it starts from there. Now someone is proposing that there be a ban on keeping exotics.

LOL!!! Oh my, I just have to laugh at these people. :rofl:
I mean, going from
"your feeding live! Omg, 3vil!"
To "we must ban all snakes and exotics!!!" that's insane. I would love to hear the reasons why we must "ban" exotics. Haha! :devilish:

A Ban on Exotics... I'm really not surprised.

I spent three years as a vegetarian myself and I frequented a few vegetarian sites to pick up recipes and such. A lot of times the discussion turned to animal rights. After listening to a lot of that, it seemed to me that most of it had less to do with concern for the welfare of animals, and more to do with wanting the power to control other peoples actions. I guess some people just need their little power trips to feel important.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Why are you letting it bother you? They probably don't even keep snakes and are just trying to make you look like the evil rat killer. I feed all of my snakes frozen/thawed except for the balls, most of which I feed live. You feed your snake what it's willing to eat. I've been keeping snakes for well over 20 years, and anyone who says that ANY SNAKE CAN BE TAUGHT TO FEED ON FROZEN/THAWED hasn't kept snakes for very long if at all. YES, some of my balls will eat frozen thawed just fine. And I've been able to feed all of them frozen thawed at least once, but I want my snakes to eat every time I feed them and not just once in a while. So, for the ball pythons that means feeding live. Just tell them that they're full of crap and be done with it, it's not worth your time to argue with them.

Mark

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I am exactly in the same boat as Mark, I prefer to feed F/T, and 25 of my snakes eat F/T with gusto. However, I have 2 ball pythons that switch back and forth, sometimes they will eat F/T , and sometimes only live will do. I want them to eat regularly, so when they refuse F/T, live is what I feed. I have no problem with feeding live, as long as it is done with regard to the snake's safety ( watching, and not leaving live prey in the enclosure unsupervised ). After all, in the wild, predator and prey are not confined together , as in captivity. Snakes are not vegetarians. Ignorant people don't seem to understand how important serpents are in the wild, keeping the rodent population in check. I do have a couple of rats for pets, I am an animal lover, but nature works the way it should.

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Originally Posted by patthesnakeman

what about nature? whats different. i mean what about crickets? there lame! forget em

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Didnt you know they have a drive thru rodent store that sells frozen rodents to all the reptiles :rofl::rofl:(just joking of course here :P)

Some message forums are like that. I was on a parenting message board for a long while til everyone's attitudes just got in the way of a real discussion. If you don't do it the way they think it should be done then your scum. Gets real old.

i think killing the rats before is more humain but i dont see anything wrong feeding them live food on this other website this guy feed his snake ball pythons (the snake was venomous and they guy was like i dont really care) so i guess this is just my opinion i think feeding them live is more natural cuz nature intended it that way

I feed my Boas frozen rats but I feed my ball python live. My ball is a very picky eater and no matter how hard I try he just wont eat frozen. So would these so called animal lovers want me to let my snake starve to death? Some people just aren't happy unless they have something to gripe about.

Here is the thread...

http://www.veggieboards.com/boards/s...ad.php?t=80043

my guess would be they are talking about a centipede, since millipedes are vegetarians...
i've never tried to feed my centipedes mice, but i have tried to feed lizards before. They did no thrashing or anything with the lizards.. Just bit it, and i have to assume shot venom too, as the lizard was totally immobilized. The pede then just totally ignored it. So i removed the lizard after a few minutes. Then to my surprise a few more minutes later, like 15 or so, the lizard was back up and running around again...so i tossed him in with one of my tarantulas... he wasn't so lucky that time.
And from movies i've seen online of centipedes eating mice the venom has similar effects vs mice, not that it kills them just totally shuts them down in a very small amount of time. so i'd have to wager that this story is a little over the top.
The only real way i see the centipede constantly trampling the little rat pup would be if the little rat pup was retarded enough to constantly poke at the pede. "oooh what's this?" "ACK it attacked me!" "i'm gonna go back and do that again!!" ..

Thanks a lot, Mark. It means a lot to me that you went out of your way to agree with me. It angers me beyond belief that people misuse the term "rescue," as well. I also think that real rescues are the ones where people really go out of their way to save an animal. Like people venturing into drainage pipes to save cats, dogs, etc...now, that's also a bit stupid, but that is also a true rescue. Freeing an animal that's trapped, taking an animal into a boat before it drowns, trapping and capturing the crazy dog that's dodging traffic...that's all real rescues, in my mind. Taking an animal from a pet store isn't a rescue, no matter how you look at it. Unless the store's on fire, there's a gas leak, you know. Something that the animals really need to be saved from.

Anyway, I won't take it more off topic than that. There's no way I'm going to view that thread, haha. I can't see the reasoning in those types of people. I just do what I know works, and go about my own business. Best way to do it.

So I read that whole thread. Ice_Storm is one of those people that sits behind his computer screen and condemns the rest of the world for not being as selfless and righteous as himself. I'm not convinced he knows anything about reptiles or their status in the wild, or how it is reflected in the america's. If he is so quick to judge the rest of us, perhaps he should "lead the pack" by not owning any animal. Even domesticated ones like dogs and cats, because if it weren't for "man", they would have never been introduced to our homes and breed for companionship. Which would have been just CRUEL to the original animals. (forget that it was almost 3000 years ago when the egyptians brought cats and salt water fish displays into their homes)

In the end, if their little group of 2 or 3 people wants to continue down a path of ignorance, let them do it. The most you can really do is show them that not everyone that owns and exotic animal is "pure 3vil".

btw, rats are considered "exotic" animals. (since the subject was about her rescueing a pinky rat, (that has a very low chance of living i think))

Um. . .lets see. . .snakes eat mice. . .frozen/thawed/alive it doesnt matter, the snake is going to eat it. . .why not get some entertainment out of watching the snake attack the mouse brutally and squeeze the life (and eyeballs at times) out of it and swallow it whole?


PLUS I dont like the way the microwave smells when you thaw the rat. . .LOL!


Tell the vegans that if they want you to feed frozen mice, then thaw them out in their microwave and bring them to you. . .otherwise, do what you do.


And "Rescue" a mouse from a pet store. . .this means they couldnt AFFORD to "Rescue" a puppy or cat or anything more than $1 so they got a mouse and then claimed that it was a rescue attempt? Cheap bleeders! Go rescue a puppy from an animal shelter thats about to put it in the gas chamber, or a Alligator that fixing to be shot because its too big, or a Anaconda that got loose in a residential neighborhood because it was 22ft and eating the neighbors cats. . . THAT would be a rescue. . .not a flipping MOUSE that was BRED as FOOD for a SNAKE! (Just like using caps :) )

ALSO
Today is my birthday :D HAPPY 22nd to Nate :D:taz::salute:

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Originally Posted by DownSouthDragons

Um. . .lets see. . .snakes eat mice. . .frozen/thawed/alive it doesnt matter, the snake is going to eat it. . .why not get some entertainment out of watching the snake attack the mouse brutally and squeeze the life (and eyeballs at times) out of it and swallow it whole?

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I don't think they would find it amusing to watch the animal die "brutally". I don't get entertainment out of feeding live, but it's that mindset that makes these people hate us, because they believe we only feed live to watch the animal suffer, when that is usually not the case. I feed live because of the animals that refuse FT or PK. Also convenience and because it is also more humane than stunning or whacking.

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Originally Posted by DownSouthDragons

PLUS I dont like the way the microwave smells when you thaw the rat. . .LOL!

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Dont thaw the rat in the microwave. Not only can it explode, but your cooking the rat. Thaw it in a bowl at room temperature for several hours then heat it up to feed. OR, put it in a ziplock bag and thaw in hot water for a half and hour before you feed it to your snake. (make sure it's not cool when you squeeze the tummy or firm)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I don't think they would find it amusing to watch the animal die "brutally". I don't get entertainment out of feeding live, but it's that mindset that makes these people hate us, because they believe we only feed live to watch the animal suffer, when that is usually not the case.

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Connie, I agree with you on this. It is those people in the snake world that give us good keepers a bad name, by getting entertained by the snake killing the live animal and bragging like it's the best form of entertainment in the world. It's really disgusting to me. I find the way snakes constrict and swallow to be quite facinating, but that is not the reason I feed live to just a couple of my snakes. I've already said it's because they'd rather starve to death than eat anything else. I just want my snakes healthy and on a normal feeding schedule. It's terrible people try to make feeding live seem like a fashion show or similar. That IS exactly at least one of the things that angers a lot of those people getting on other's cases about feeding live.

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Originally Posted by DownSouthDragons

Um. . .lets see. . .snakes eat mice. . .frozen/thawed/alive it doesnt matter, the snake is going to eat it. . .why not get some entertainment out of watching the snake attack the mouse brutally and squeeze the life (and eyeballs at times) out of it and swallow it whole?

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Entertainment? Let me assure you, I get no entertainment out of feeding off live animals. I only feed live. I didn't get any entertainment out of picking out a rat fuzzy from a litter last night to feed to my youngest and smallest snake. I've chosen live feeding for my crew, but not for any entertainment value and anyone who chooses live for that reason, are the very people who probably should consider feeding f/t, imho.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DownSouthDragons

Um. . .lets see. . .snakes eat mice. . .frozen/thawed/alive it doesnt matter, the snake is going to eat it. . .why not get some entertainment out of watching the snake attack the mouse brutally and squeeze the life (and eyeballs at times) out of it and swallow it whole?

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Nate, that kind of attitude is often exactly why some people think folks that live feed snakes are uncaring or just plain strange. I live feed, I raise the rats that I feed off. I get about as much of a "rush" out of watching one of our snakes eat it's rat as I would a cat or dog eating from their food bowl. It's not about some sort of thrill, it's just about feeding an animal an appropriate meal so it's healthy and well cared for. Nothing more than that, at least for me. :)

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Originally Posted by DownSouthDragons

the snake is going to eat it. . .why not get some entertainment out of watching the snake attack the mouse brutally and squeeze the life (and eyeballs at times) out of it and swallow it whole?

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And some people wonder why the general public has a bad opinion of snake owners :rolleyes: ?

While you probably don’t care about what other people think of what you do or what you say, you need to see the BIG picture.

Geez Deb lighten up. So the guy likes to watch snakes kill mice/rats. Anyone with a problem with "snake people" will have the problem live mouse or dead.

You can't please the PETA folks hell they think you and I are "slave masters" for keeping pets. Their term not mine. Oh yea they think chickens should have the same RIGHTS as people.

Chickens have a "right" to a good fried recipe. Mice have a "right" to occupy the bottom of the food chain. I feed PK to all but one of my snakes a Carpet python who refuses anything but live. I do that for my convenience though not to please the people that eat carrots or anyone else for that matter.

If you wanted to define "rodent killing machine" a picture of any constrictor would do just fine. Nature is wise, who are we to question her?

Haha. . .ok I havent been around long enough for people to realize im a jokester. . .I said exactly what everyone DIDNT want to hear. . .I do that a LOT! I dont really get amusement or entertainment out of watching the poor mousey suffer. . .and I dont REALLY microwave them (that would be stupid). . .

I was trying to be the "Stereotype" of what everyone looks at us as. I was showing an example of why vegans hate us. I myself am quite Carnivorous (I HATE VEGGIES!!!) and I dont have a problem eating raw steak. . .I think its quite yummy myself, but thats a personal opinion and I wouldnt recommend anyone eat raw meat because of health reasons.


Hopefully everyone will read this, then re-read my other post, and realize what a stereotype I was being :D

Have a nice year (whats left of it anyway) and NEVER forget to laugh :D :taz:

I feed my ball python live because that's the only thing he will take.

I spent about $50 in pre-killed food and wasted all of it because he wouldn't eat it so I just gave up and let him eat live like he wants :).

I feed my BCI pre-killed though.
I guess really the only upside to it is its a little bit safer and its cheaper most of the time.

I have people nagging me all the time and calling me a irresponsible animal owner all because I have NO choice but to feed live.
I have tried to feed pre-killed, its like give me a break.

As long as you feed live responsibly then I see no reason as to why they can't be fed...

I dig watching my snakes feed. I only feed f/t because it's more convenient but I still think it's fascinating watching them eat.

you could always show them this clip of the guinness book of world records for worlds worst rat plague. This is what happens when nature doesn't take it's course:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2LMxhc8WwGU

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Originally Posted by Elvyra's Keeper

Would that really work? I mean, don't they only eat meat? I would think it would starve to death. I wouldn't even think their bodies could do that.

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No it wouldn't work and yes they only eat meat, the article was from an ASPCA web site. The monitor looked fake like it was a walking stick! They were force feeding it some thing that would under no circumstances sustain it.

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Originally Posted by bonheki

i think killing the rats before is more humain but i dont see anything wrong feeding them live food on this other website this guy feed his snake ball pythons (the snake was venomous and they guy was like i dont really care) so i guess this is just my opinion i think feeding them live is more natural cuz nature intended it that way

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thats an expensive feed bill!