what do you think of hybrids

hey i was looking at a website and they showed all kind of hybrids
like womasxball bloodxball dwarf burmxball and all kinds of things some looked stunning and some looked like little monsters :snake::taz:
whats your opinion on hybrids? if ya ask me i like some hybrids but not all

I don't like hybrids.

I think hybrids can be pretty cool, no harm in breeding them in captivity. There is a risk if you're breeding snakes that could be established locally, but most hobbiests don't live in the areas where the snakes are from.

What website was that?

I don't mind people breeding them. I like mules; they combine some awesome traits from horses and from donkeys, into a really cool animal. I would be a hypocrite if I begrudged hybrid breeders but still was fine with mules..
Can hybrids reproduce?

Quote:

---

Can hybrids reproduce?

---

Yes, and thats where the problem lies.

Quote:

---

Quote:
Can hybrids reproduce?

Yes, and thats where the problem lies.

---

As well mis-representing these hybrids when selling them :mad:

Thank god most hobbyist don't care for hybrids.

Marc

where did you see this, i would like to look

I love hybrids, its gives the world of breeding endless potential but only to responsible breeders. I love the Superballs and Carpalls the best. As long as a hybrid is labelled correctly and not released back into the wild then why not. its a way to change temperments, sizes, and color patterns. Some hybrids are fertile but others arent. I believe that only a few Blood x Ball hybrids are fertile. Roussis Reptiles I believe are the only ones who have successfully made an F2 generation with there Superballs and there patterns are amazing. Who knows what may happen in the next few years if someone decides to cross some morphs into hybrids.

Personally I think the super balls are amazing. I love the combinations of temperment, pattern, behaviour, etc.

Lot of people find it a contensious issue.

Never check out the other hybrids though.

Bruce

If all hybrids were infertile, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I once saw a picture of a clutch of F2 Jungle corns. Jungle corns are Cornsnake/Kingsnake hybrids. The F2 generation produced a lot of interesting patterns and colors, but the most memorable hatchling to me was the one that looked exactly like a corn snake. You could not tell by looking at it that it was a hybrid though a significant portion of it's genes came from the kingsnake ancestor. Raising that animal up and breeding it, who knows what you would get? You could throw a big wrench into somebody breeding plans who had a specific goal in mind. Personally I think that people who create hybrids are very short sighted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

If all hybrids were infertile, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I once saw a picture of a clutch of F2 Jungle corns. Jungle corns are Cornsnake/Kingsnake hybrids. The F2 generation produced a lot of interesting patterns and colors, but the most memorable hatchling to me was the one that looked exactly like a corn snake. You could not tell by looking at it that it was a hybrid though a significant portion of it's genes came from the kingsnake ancestor. Raising that animal up and breeding it, who knows what you would get? You could throw a big wrench into somebody breeding plans who had a specific goal in mind. Personally I think that people who create hybrids are very short sighted.

---

I completely agree. Hybrids can be really cool, but the fact that most of them are fertile erks me, so I'm not for hybrids.

I like some, I don't care for others, but I don't see any ethical problem with them. If they can interbreed, they're obviously related anyway. Just be honest with what you're selling if you have them.

Keep in mind.. aside from mules, your everyday garden tulip or rose is also a hybrid.

oh and for thoes who wanted to see the wesite its hybridheaven.com i like certain hybrids just some look like mutants

hybridheaven.com is a hybrid car website...?

link def didnt work MAD WEAKSAUCE

Some hybrids are cool looking and I agree that one of the biggest issues comes when down the line some of the second, third...ECT generations so closely resemble one or the other of the original parent species you can't tell the animal in question is in fact a hybrid.

I think it would take diligent record keeping on the part of not only the breeder but any buyers to make sure the lineage of the animal is always disclosed. Obviously at some point someone will either intentionally or unintentionally misrepresent the animal, and that is a big issue. I think this will probably be most common when the animal is resold.

However I really LOVE bat eaters I think they are absolutely beautiful. Some of the Carpet python hybrids are equally gorgeous. So I guess I have mixed feelings.

I think the website is hybridhaven.com . It is run by Yasser of Spitfire.
I am not a big advocater of hybrids simply because they so often can get misrepresented when sold.
For example, if you breed a carpet to a green tree python to produce a carpondro. It is a very interesting display specimen. So why would you go back and breed it to a green tree or to a carpet to make 75%er's. That totally defeats the purpose of an extreme hybrid.

The website is http://www.spitfirereptiles.com/hybridhaven/index.php

after reading this http://www.spitfirereptiles.com/hybr...topic.php?t=75
and many many other ones i have no problems in any way with hybrids .... whos to say what we have now isnt a hybrid of 2 other snakes ?

Yes animals often hybridize in the wild. Did you hear of the pizzly bear (polar X grizzly) they found not too long ago?

And thanks for the link, herpmajor.. that's quite an interesting site.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

If all hybrids were infertile, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I once saw a picture of a clutch of F2 Jungle corns. Jungle corns are Cornsnake/Kingsnake hybrids. The F2 generation produced a lot of interesting patterns and colors, but the most memorable hatchling to me was the one that looked exactly like a corn snake. You could not tell by looking at it that it was a hybrid though a significant portion of it's genes came from the kingsnake ancestor. Raising that animal up and breeding it, who knows what you would get? You could throw a big wrench into somebody breeding plans who had a specific goal in mind. Personally I think that people who create hybrids are very short sighted.

---

Who's to say that colubrids, or any other snake in captivity is a true pure bred, to begin with? Who's to say that somewhere along their bloodline, some sort of hybridization didn't occur in the wild?.... If your against hybrids, why not be against color and pattern morphs as well? Majority of the color and pattern morphs would be more detrimental to a species survival (especially in the wild), than a hybrid would. Hybrids on average, are stronger, grow faster, and have killer appetites. Their health is incredible to boot... Now look at morphs such as the albino.....Tell me what that's doing to the specie, other than adding a rare gem to someones collection...

As for me, I love hybrids, and intergrades. I cannot get enough of them!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Who's to say that colubrids, or any other snake in captivity is a true pure bred, to begin with? Who's to say that somewhere along their bloodline, some sort of hybridization didn't occur in the wild?.... If your against hybrids, why not be against color and pattern morphs as well? Majority of the color and pattern morphs would be more detrimental to a species survival (especially in the wild), than a hybrid would. Hybrids on average, are stronger, grow faster, and have killer appetites. Their health is incredible to boot... Now look at morphs such as the albino.....Tell me what that's doing to the specie, other than adding a rare gem to someones collection...

As for me, I love hybrids, and intergrades. I cannot get enough of them!

---

this right here is the best responce i ever heard:salute:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Greenlover

after reading this http://www.spitfirereptiles.com/hybr...topic.php?t=75
and many many other ones i have no problems in any way with hybrids .... whos to say what we have now isnt a hybrid of 2 other snakes ?

---

Good point, i've never looked at it this way before. I've always been a little inbetween attempting to breed a hybrid, it'll be many years anyway before my irian jayas grow :)

A Polar Bear and Grizzly cross is more likely to happen in the wild than most people think. Polar bears evolved from Grizzlies fairly recently.

Quote:

---

Who's to say that colubrids, or any other snake in captivity is a true pure bred, to begin with? Who's to say that somewhere along their bloodline, some sort of hybridization didn't occur in the wild?.... If your against hybrids, why not be against color and pattern morphs as well? Majority of the color and pattern morphs would be more detrimental to a species survival

---

So, you think it's possible for a CALIFORNIA kingsnake to naturally cross with a FLORIDA cornsnake? Nice try... Sure, some integrades occur in nature, but it's not common or you wouldn't have the separate species in the first place and most of the hybrid crosses that are being created would be impossible in nature. Some of these artificial hybrids are from completely different continents. And comparing hybrids to naturally occurring mutations is a bull**** argument. The one thing has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other. You're trying to compare apples to oranges.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shelby

Did you hear of the pizzly bear (polar X grizzly) they found not too long ago?

---

Hi,

That is a terribly insulting name for any animal capable of ripping you into shreds - if it finds out we could be in real trouble. **worried look**


del

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

So, you think it's possible for a CALIFORNIA kingsnake to naturally cross with a FLORIDA cornsnake? Nice try... Sure, some integrades occur in nature, but it's not common or you wouldn't have the separate species in the first place and most of the hybrid crosses that are being created would be impossible in nature. Some of these artificial hybrids are from completely different continents. And comparing hybrids to naturally occurring mutations is a bull**** argument. The one thing has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other. You're trying to compare apples to oranges.

---

Right....apples to oranges eh? Kind of like the Retic x Burm, or the different carpet crosses. Maybe even an angolan x Ball? Hmm....what about Eastern kings x Corns? Maybe even Bull snakes, or Pine snakes x corns? Stop and think on which hybrids have been produced so far.... Bullshxt arguement?...maybe the hybridists aren't the short sighted ones, if you cannot even stop and think, or comprehend this....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

So, you think it's possible for a CALIFORNIA kingsnake to naturally cross with a FLORIDA cornsnake? Nice try... Sure, some integrades occur in nature, but it's not common or you wouldn't have the separate species in the first place and most of the hybrid crosses that are being created would be impossible in nature. Some of these artificial hybrids are from completely different continents. And comparing hybrids to naturally occurring mutations is a bull**** argument. The one thing has absolutely NOTHING to do with the other. You're trying to compare apples to oranges.

---

No.. not in nature, they wouldn't. However by the simple fact that they CAN interbreed successfully, it tells me that they had a common ancestor.

Remember, 'species' is just a label people give to animals. A lot of animals in the same genus could be considered the same kind of animal.. and back in their history, they were the same animal. I don't see how it's unethical to crossbreed what are essentially localities of the same type of animal.. even if they belong to a different genus (it just means more diverse speciation has occured).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

That is a terribly insulting name for any animal capable of ripping you into shreds - if it finds out we could be in real trouble. **worried look**


del

---

i can take that pizzlybear :fork:

I thought that was a funny name too. It was pretty interesting looking.. it had dark brown circles around it's eyes kind of like a panda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shelby

No.. not in nature, they wouldn't. However by the simple fact that they CAN interbreed successfully, it tells me that they had a common ancestor.

Remember, 'species' is just a label people give to animals. A lot of animals in the same genus could be considered the same kind of animal.. and back in their history, they were the same animal. I don't see how it's unethical to crossbreed what are essentially localities of the same type of animal.. even if they belong to a different genus (it just means more diverse speciation has occured).

---

Isn't the hybridization of North American colubrids, recently, what caused the New World Rat snakes to be renamed Pantherophis? They were found to be more closesly related to other North American colubrids, than their old world relatives?

I don't know.. but I wondered why they renamed the genus.

Quote:

---

Isn't the hybridization of North American colubrids, recently, what caused the New World Rat snakes to be renamed Pantherophis? They were found to be more closesly related to other North American colubrids, than their old world relatives?

---

Yes, it is. Of course they're more closely related. It only makes sense that the animals that are from the same continent as each other are much more closely related then animals from thousands of miles away across an ocean. But the various different species that are found on this continent are still considered different species from each other because they have evolved over time to fill different ecological niches and have different environmental needs and react in different ways (have differing personalities). None of which makes any difference at all because none of these animals will ever be re-released into the wild. They are captives and will always remain captives.

My objection to hybrids is, and has always been, that in the future it will be IMPOSSIBLE to find pure bred stocks of certain species unless you go back and collect from the wild. The more hybrids that are created the more inevitable it will be that genes from a different species will creep into my breeding projects mucking up the expected outcome. It's one of the reasons that I don't have as many corn snakes as I used to. Hybridization has been happening with them for such a long time, that there is no way that I could ever guarantee that any of my stock really is 100% pure corn snake. Now I see the same thing happening with the pythons.

And yes Andrew, comparing hybridization between two different species and reproducing random mutations that occur within a species are two completely different things, I don't see how you could possibly think they are similar in any way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkS

And yes Andrew, comparing hybridization between two different species and reproducing random mutations that occur within a species are two completely different things, I don't see how you could possibly think they are similar in any way.

---

I'm comparing the two, to show you how 'short sighted' your showing yourself to be...

You complain about hybrids as if in the future, there will never be any purebred animals left. You could hold that doomsday idea all you'd like. Your choice. Tell me how are hybrids really detrimental to a species? If they weren't meant to breed together, then they wouldn't both in the wild, AND captivity. Nobody is forcing them to breed. As for random mutations...they're still genetic. Lets say Ball Pythons go extinct in the wild in the future, and they want to re-introduce the species....but all we have left are albino's, pastels, etc. Tell me how would they benefit the species, vs. a hybrid who more or less holds the best traits of the parent species?....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndrewH

Right....apples to oranges eh? Kind of like the Retic x Burm, or the different carpet crosses. Maybe even an angolan x Ball? Hmm....what about Eastern kings x Corns? Maybe even Bull snakes, or Pine snakes x corns? Stop and think on which hybrids have been produced so far.... Bullshxt arguement?...maybe the hybridists aren't the short sighted ones, if you cannot even stop and think, or comprehend this....

---

This is where you are wrong Andrew. The different carpet crosses here in the States are causing problems trying to find verifiable true species. There are a select few of us working with true forms (ie. pure coastal carpets, pure IJ's, etc.) to preserve the ability of future generations to find pure animals.
Have you looked at any of the 75% or 88% crosses?? Some could very easily be mistaken for a true breed.
Sure you can sleep sound and say that I will market and honestly represent the hybrids I produce. But, what about the person you sell the snake to?? How many times have you bought a snake and later sold it? How many people actually keep every animal they buy for the life of the animal??? Many snakes change hands many times and in those times I can tell you that I doubt the hybrid is always honestly represented.
I won't go with the argument about releasing them back into the wild. We all know this is not going to happen. But believe it or not, there are people out there that want a pure specimen of whatever species. The more high percentage crosses out there, the less the ability to find a pure form.
I am also a member on another forum where a guy in Europe who is a known carpet species hybridizer recently bought some snakes that were a bit unusual but he was told they were pure jungles (cheynei). Well he finally acquired the breeding adults of what he had bought and lo and behold, they were a hybrid. Looks to be a Savu x jungle carpet. The babies he had were 75%ers. You could tell by looking at some that they were hybrids for sure but there was one that could easily be mistaken for a pure jungle. Remember that percentages are only arbitrary. In a given clutch like this, they will not all be exactly 75% jungle. It is only statistical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPenn

This is where you are wrong Andrew. The different carpet crosses here in the States are causing problems trying to find verifiable true species. There are a select few of us working with true forms (ie. pure coastal carpets, pure IJ's, etc.) to preserve the ability of future generations to find pure animals.
Have you looked at any of the 75% or 88% crosses?? Some could very easily be mistaken for a true breed.
Sure you can sleep sound and say that I will market and honestly represent the hybrids I produce. But, what about the person you sell the snake to?? How many times have you bought a snake and later sold it? How many people actually keep every animal they buy for the life of the animal??? Many snakes change hands many times and in those times I can tell you that I doubt the hybrid is always honestly represented.
I won't go with the argument about releasing them back into the wild. We all know this is not going to happen. But believe it or not, there are people out there that want a pure specimen of whatever species. The more high percentage crosses out there, the less the ability to find a pure form.
I am also a member on another forum where a guy in Europe who is a known carpet species hybridizer recently bought some snakes that were a bit unusual but he was told they were pure jungles (cheynei). Well he finally acquired the breeding adults of what he had bought and lo and behold, they were a hybrid. Looks to be a Savu x jungle carpet. The babies he had were 75%ers. You could tell by looking at some that they were hybrids for sure but there was one that could easily be mistaken for a pure jungle. Remember that percentages are only arbitrary. In a given clutch like this, they will not all be exactly 75% jungle. It is only statistical.

---

I was speaking of wild integrades/hybrids.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndrewH

I was speaking of wild integrades/hybrids.....

---

I disagree. You mentioned Angolan x ball, retic x burm, blood x ball, etc. These do not occur in the wild.

I never mentioned Blood x ball, and the Retic x Burm was originally wild caught ;)....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AndrewH

I never mentioned Blood x ball, and the Retic x Burm was originally wild caught ;)....

---

Wrong again. The retic x burm was not a wild caught but bred in captivity. The gentleman who put him out on the market (I won't say his name) told that story to put a bigger price tag on it and make it more unique. That is why the name Borneo Bateater came about.

I think hybrids could be a great idea if they were all produced responsibly and also microchipped... but I know that doesn't happen. I realize the problem with high percentage hybrids and the difficulty in finding a pure species. I know that there are already problems identifying carpet pythons and coloubrids, and I think the boas will soon follow, if they are not there already. I think 50% hybrids are probably the "coolest looking" and safest hybrids to produce. While we're on the subject... I have a carpet that was sold to me as a Coastal, but it doesn't seem to be a pure Coastal anymore... a very pretty animal, but I may never know what percent of what species it really is. This could possibly deter me from breeding her in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rapture

I think hybrids could be a great idea if they were all produced responsibly and also microchipped... but I know that doesn't happen. I realize the problem with high percentage hybrids and the difficulty in finding a pure species. I know that there are already problems identifying carpet pythons and coloubrids, and I think the boas will soon follow, if they are not there already. I think 50% hybrids are probably the "coolest looking" and safest hybrids to produce. While we're on the subject... I have a carpet that was sold to me as a Coastal, but it doesn't seem to be a pure Coastal anymore... a very pretty animal, but I may never know what percent of what species it really is. This could possibly deter me from breeding her in the future.

---

And this is a perfect example of what I was saying. A misrepresented animal. And if I am not mistaken, the buyer threw my name in there when talking to you about his adults. Rapture and I conversed and I have never sold this "seller" one of my carpets. He may have got it from someone else, but I doubt it.

Not to mention, what if Rap bred this to a coastal later and tried to sell the babies as coastals. With as large a clutch as carpets have, you would have a few that would not show the coastal influence but more of the other crossed species.
If she is truly trying to breed and sell pure coastals, she has wasted several years in a project that didn't help the problem but make it worse by putting more hybrids on the market.

hmm good point for my carpet (im uploading pics now) they said it was a coastal but some pics i see mine dont look like no coastal mine looks like a HYBRID!? SOO
mpenn can you post some pics of pure costals and fake coastals ?

i agree. it dilutes the bloodline. making each snake less pure and less pure. were here to preserve the species not obliterate it and replace it with another

Just to clarify, I bought the snake because it was gorgeous. It was marked as a Coastal and I believed it to be so, as I am very inexperienced in identifying many carpet species. If she keeps her good looks, I will likely keep her for a long period of time, but I would not feel right breeding her to much of anything, as I would not even be able to identify her offspring to sell them. Then who knows what would be produced from her offspring, and so forth...

Maybe it will end up being like the horse-breeding world? Whereby, papers and registries will tell if people's breeding stock is pure or not..? Kinda like pedigreed dogs..?
Scary. I am going to rethink my hybrid opinions, as I admit to not being very wise to other snakes being crossed, besides the BP crosses.

Chances are high the ball hybrids will follow the same trend as others have... So far there are a good number of ball hybrids... The woma x ball, the carpet x ball, the borneo x ball, the F2 borneo x ball, the angolan x ball, the 75% ball 25% angolan... it may not be long before you know if your ball python is really 100% Python regius.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rapture

Chances are high the ball hybrids will follow the same trend as others have... So far there are a good number of ball hybrids... The woma x ball, the carpet x ball, the borneo x ball, the F2 borneo x ball, the burmese x ball, the angolan x ball, the 75% ball 25% angolan... it may not be long before you know if your ball python is really 100% Python regius.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MPenn

This is where you are wrong Andrew. The different carpet crosses here in the States are causing problems trying to find verifiable true species. There are a select few of us working with true forms (ie. pure coastal carpets, pure IJ's, etc.) to preserve the ability of future generations to find pure animals.
Have you looked at any of the 75% or 88% crosses?? Some could very easily be mistaken for a true breed.
Sure you can sleep sound and say that I will market and honestly represent the hybrids I produce. But, what about the person you sell the snake to?? How many times have you bought a snake and later sold it? How many people actually keep every animal they buy for the life of the animal??? Many snakes change hands many times and in those times I can tell you that I doubt the hybrid is always honestly represented.
I won't go with the argument about releasing them back into the wild. We all know this is not going to happen. But believe it or not, there are people out there that want a pure specimen of whatever species. The more high percentage crosses out there, the less the ability to find a pure form.
I am also a member on another forum where a guy in Europe who is a known carpet species hybridizer recently bought some snakes that were a bit unusual but he was told they were pure jungles (cheynei). Well he finally acquired the breeding adults of what he had bought and lo and behold, they were a hybrid. Looks to be a Savu x jungle carpet. The babies he had were 75%ers. You could tell by looking at some that they were hybrids for sure but there was one that could easily be mistaken for a pure jungle. Remember that percentages are only arbitrary. In a given clutch like this, they will not all be exactly 75% jungle. It is only statistical.

---

I agree Mike. Look at all of the "Diamonds" you see for sale...I see 10x more % Diamonds for sale than I do %100 Diamonds.

There are plenty of % Diamonds that could be passed off for %100 Diamonds, and it has happened plenty of times.


Mike

Omg Superball Is Awesome

I think hybrids are a bad idea. Yeah they may look cool, but I would not want to spend alot of money on a project just to have it messed up by a hybrid. There are alot of unhonest people out there. Just look at how many times people think they are buying hets only to find out they have been screwed. So why should I beleive that the same wont happen with hybrids.