lets say..

You want to get a morph, lets say a high end snake such as a high white pie bald. You just so happen to have the most oportune scenario a line up of these people,
Adam (from 8ball, who is very experienced)
Mark (made up person, who has some experience, does breeding on a medium scale)
Jack (who has only had a few clutches)

There are three female high white hatchlings, have eaten twice each, all look great and have identical markings and all weigh lets say 250g, everyones terms of sale are nearly identical

Adam has his snake listed at $2800
Mark has his snake listed at $2000
Jack has his snake listed at $1700

Prices are rediculous i know but for the sake of "lets just say"
would you pay the higher price? who would you go with and why?

Speaking on a completely personal note, I’d like to think that the final deciding factor would rest on more than just dollars and cents. If I’m buying an animal I hope to have with me for 30+ years, I don’t think an extra couple hundred either way would matter all that much, so long as I find just the right snake for me. (You know, “the one.”)

Ideally I’d like to be able to visit all the breeders (like at an expo or something) to compare before making the commitment to bring an animal home who I’ll have longer than I've currently been alive. That’s not always possible, of course, but in my ‘ideal scenario’ that’s what I’d hope for.

Just my 2 (novice) cents.

great input! thanks thats exactly the kind of comment i was looking for

#3 I pick Jack. I always like going to the vet and watching my Hard earned money Disapear..
But then who is to say this jack guy is all that bad?

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

#3 I pick Jack. I always like going to the vet and watching my Hard earned money Disapear..
But then who is to say this jack guy is all that bad?

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I didnt see #1 was Adam THE ADAM! I forfeit...

I'd give that Adam guy a call and see what he can work out for me. I know that sometimes breeders like Adam are a little behind on updating their websites/price lists and can be very competitive price wise depending on the animal and the terms of the sale ... plus, I'd bet that Adam is a pretty cool guy to talk snakes with as well. :D

Just sayin. ;) :P

-adam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'd give that Adam guy a call and see what he can work out for me. I know that sometimes breeders like Adam are a little behind on updating their websites/price lists and can be very competitive price wise depending on the animal and the terms of the sale ... plus, I'd bet that Adam is a pretty cool guy to talk snakes with as well. :D

Just sayin. ;) :P

-adam

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That Adam Rawks!!! Just sayin with no smiles cause I'm still on probation!!
I luvs me some Adam (NH)

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

That Adam Rawks!!! Just sayin with no smiles cause I'm still on probation!!
I luvs me some Adam (NH)

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Well, you rock too Jas! ... I've got animals that you produced eating me out of house and home and I couldn't be happier! I'm sure I'll have many more of your babies in my racks in the years ahead!!!!

-adam

I’d like to post a follow-up, if I may.

While I stand beside what I mentioned in my earlier post, I would like to clarify that it is based on my opinion in the situation of buying a snake as a person pet. That is to say, a non-breeding critter I would just like to have for myself. (Which happens to be my goal.)

However, if I were to enter the realm of breeding snakes for profit, and I were to look at the snake like a financial investment, than I would aim to buy from well known and respected breeders. In a professional marketplace the name behind the ‘product’ often commands a bulk of the price. You touched on this fact in your original question. Being able to say, “This is so-and-so’s strain” might net you several hundred more dollars per animal than selling “no-name brand.” (For lack of a better term, and without any offense intended to anyone!)

The snakes you obtain from a hobby/lesser-known breeder may be just as high quality, but lacking ‘the name,’ the discerning buyer may go elsewhere when it comes time to sell the offspring. That is just the nature of nearly any marketplace. There is a market for these beautiful animals, that’s for sure, and if you wanted to maximize your profit fast, than I’d say that breeding “name brand” would be one of the best ways to do that.

This is the ‘less risky’ way, because you are starting out with an established strain with an established reputation, providing you keep it up – and people will know if you don’t.

Hmmm… now you have me in ‘business mode.’ Tsk tsk.

Another way to turn a respectable profit would be to go the other way; breed quality snakes you buy inexpensively from lesser-known breeders and create the hot morphs people want. Because you paid less to begin with, and you yourself are starting out as a ‘no-name’, you could sell those morphs for less and generate a rush of sales. Do this long enough and your name will become ‘known’ as your snakes gradually make it on to the scene in wider circles. If you are producing quality animals (again; people will know if you aren’t!), then you can slowly raise your prices to match the competitors, while retaining a solid reputation.

I could call this the ‘challenging way,’ because you would effectively be building a ‘name’ of your very own, but the rewards could be tremendous. Imagine in 10 years people proudly saying, “I just got an amazing AshleyB strain silver pastel!”

Please note; the abovementioned price regulation is different than just ‘slashing prices’ to undercut everybody else. What I’ve described is selling a comparable product at a rate that reflects your lesser-known status; a practice that you’ve already established exists for those just starting out or hobby-breeding.

If you were to intentionally (maliciously?) undercut everybody after you’ve established a known name/reputation, than I’d imagine you’d have several snake-hits out on you by weeks end. (“Send in the cobra-squad, we’ve got a trouble maker!”) This is very much frowned upon. It is a thin line and you can really damage your rep and step on a lot of toes if you don’t walk it right. You want to be successful, of course, but you have to remember that you are part of a community too. Your personal success is dependent on the success of the community as a whole, so it only makes sense to play nice. People who don’t, don’t last. (I’m talking about small businesses in general.)

I don’t believe it is possible for there to be too many retailers of any product. I see business rise and fall every day. A lot of people who fail blame themselves for not being ‘good enough’ when, in the majority of cases, failure to thrive rests on a single fact: a business’ longevity is determined by the consumer who is influenced by the product. You can use advertising and pay top-dollar for state-of-the-art customer relations, but in the end it boils down to the product. I’ve seen business’ with zero advertizing budget become massively successful purely by word of mouth. Why? Because they had a great product and people recognized that fact. Consumers aren’t stupid – especially not in communities that cater to special (“niche”) products, be it a specific snake breed or a rare musical instrument. These people know their stuff!

I imagine that even the largest breeder started off as a small-fry at one point. There are many paths to the top, I’ve just mentioned a couple, you just have to pick one that suits your goals and budget.

I hope this helps. My bill is in the mail. :P

PS: I hope I didn’t sound like I was promoting a ‘puppy mill’ mentality with my business talk. Obviously (at least, I hope it would be obvious) I would expect anybody who wants to get into breeding to have a first and foremost love of the animal, a respect for it as a fellow creature, and a genuine desire to see it thrive and do well. Of course, we have to eat ourselves, so the profit portion of breeding-for-sale can’t be ignored, but I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions of my intentions. *zips lips and toddles off to bed*

I would go to Adam because he is a very reputible breeder and I know that I would be getting a healthy bp.

One thing is for certain about Adam and that is he is all about his animals.

everything else is just background noise.


:cool:

I would contact Adam and talk. Because I've already been a customer of Adam's, I know first hand that he'll take care of me and that his animals will be healthy, thriving and good looking! I also know that Adam will be there after the sale. Not just for the next few weeks, next couple of months - but for years to come. Having Adam's number on speed dial - and him encouraging you to, makes him number one in my book!

I wasnt saying im going to buy from any of the people I listed, purchasing a morph would be for my own collection (For lack of better words haha) not just breeding purposes. my husband and i were having a debate who someone would buy from first.. the less expensive just as nice "no name" snake or that of an animal much higher price because it came from "name brand"

Nightlad, I understand where your coming from, and agree with you almost to a "t" I would LOVE to someday have an animal from Adam but know financially it most likely wont happen, so buying from say "Mark" is more likely.. i wouldnt want to nessesarily go with "Jack" just because of the person not being able to replace the animal should something go wrong, doesnt have a rep to worry about upholding, exc.

As a side note, sorry Adam to have used you specifically but I admire your snakes and think you are a wonderful person (from what ive learned here) I knew people would recognise your name and didnt want to pick someone to compare you to which is why i picked "mark and jack"..was definetly done as a compliment :gj:

Id pick the best looking snake... Prices dont really mean much to me if the snake looks like poopy caca... Id request pics from each and then decide which one you like the most then go from there. No sense of payin 2k for a snake your not going to enjoy looking at for 20yrs.

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

I would LOVE to someday have an animal from Adam but know financially it most likely wont happen

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You won't know unless you actually called Adam. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. ;)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

You won't know unless you actually called Adam. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. ;)

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I will certainly consider it come the new year.. I wouldnt want to waste his time when were not financially able until April.. im thinking a spider at this point...I want to see some pictures of adult spiders and see what they look like when they are grown "up"

I thought you 2 couldnt keep bp's for some reason?

Is this just for internet and no personal contact?
It really depends on how reputable that jack and whoever are. I do my research on the breeders for weeks if I even think about buying from them. When it's a common animal like a ball python, I may not go with these two joe blows because I am willing to pay more money for a snake from adam that I know is going to be top notch.

I don't have to do any research on adam, we've done business and he's a high profile person. It's hard to be sneaky and underhanded when you have great customer relations, and lots of satisfied customers.

If say, Adam's popularity got to his head and his snakes were WAY WAY WAY overpriced, I would look harder at smaller breeders. I'm all for saving money, but I won't just jump at the chance for a cheaper snake, because you usually get what you pay for.
[plus adam is usually willing to deal to make his WAY WAY WAY overpriced animal affordable, how else is he gonna sell? ;), *p.s- Adam's animals are NOT overpriced :D]

I have to say I was in almost this exact same situation a couple months ago. I had a very set amount of money I could spend, and didn't expect to be able to scrounge up any more in the near future. I figured it couldn't hurt, so I called Adam. After talking with him we were able to work it out, and voila I have a BEAUTIFUL!! top of the line lesser. I honestly thought it was out of my reach, but Adam made it work for me. (thanks again!) I say make that call. :yes:

As far as the quality of animals you have to give all breeders a chance... Mark and Joe may not be widely known but whose to say they didnt pick their snakes up from adam?? Its hard to say so and so produces "top knotch snakes" when Ive seen snakes produced by RDR, NERD, and others that to me werent "top notch"... It happens to all breeders... not all of your snakes are going to be the best lookin quality. If your going for a visual morph... pick the best looking one.. If your going with hets... thats when I would say get with the top dawgs bc then you know your getting what you pay for.

If I were at a large reptile show where your hypothetical people were all standing around with identical snakes that I wanted, I'd chat with them. If any of them were snobby or standoffish to me, I'd walk to the next table.

Price is less of a concern than how I feel about the seller. If I feel like they are going to be there for me if (God Forbid) any problems arise, then they have my business. If I feel like they are going to say "Sorry 'bout your luck" then they don't earn my business.

I have met good people and bad people at all levels of this business. To me it doesn't matter if they are a new breeder or one of the "Big Names"... Treat me right and you can count on my money.

Connie, as I said in my post before, we didnt keep Caution and Savanna here because of my husband, not only were we both in love with our rats (which we still have two as pets, but to keep them we know to seperate pet from food, and know it can be done humanely) but he feared the children being in danger. We have had long conversations and discussions about how unrealistic that fear is, especially taking into consideration the danger the children are in when they are around my mother in laws basset hounds who have a history of biting themselves. So after much discussion, deliberation, and disapointment about the snakes moving to my sisters we have chosen to get a normal female and a morph female come April. Caution and Savanna stay in my sisters custody and shes fallin in love with them herself, so we were able to get a converter out of it too..

this scenario was strickly hypothetical.. lets say all three were lined up at a show for instance, you are within driving distance to Mark and know Jack through Mark, Jack is also in the neighborhood

Hope that answers your questions

So i appreciate wanting to buy from someone established as it often makes sense in a lot of ways. The lack of sympathy i see towards the small time breeder is a bit disturbing, though. I mean, how would someone rise to expectations if they were never given the chance? How would one earn your business without having had the opportunity to do a whole lot of business before?

I've had bad experiences buying from unknown or less than reputable people in this business. I now only buy from reputable breeders who have several positive posts on the BOI. I usually like to help the smaller guys (in any business), but with so many shady characters in this hobby, I can't let myself do that anymore. It's a real shame too. People like these just make it that much harder for the legitimate guy who's starting out and really cares about the animals and the hobby. I'm sure it will make it harder for me to sell any offspring I don't hold back. With so many reputable people in the reptile, and especially ball python, community, there's no reason to take chances.

morphie, i think that comes in play when the general public (not someone wanting to breed for instance) wants the look of a snake but doesnt care about its liniage, or just down right doesnt know about the higher up breeders (Such as adam).. either that or they are people who have the mind set of never being able to afford snakes from adam (like i know i will never be able to afford a new bmw so i dont bother going to the dealerships) so they buy something cheaper because they like the look..

i know of a breeder near me who has a beautiful spider and would buy it if i had the money, hes one of those "Mark" kind of people.. not widly known but has hatched lots of snakes himself, hes local and i can count on him, he has always been a respectable person who stands up to his word.. that and hes local i can see the animal in person, handle it know its nice, exc.. but at the end of the day, its not an Adam spider... some people like to know they have something from "a higher name"

again, meaning no offense to you Adam (maybe i shouldve named someone different)

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Originally Posted by AshleyB

again, meaning no offense to you Adam (maybe i shouldve named someone different)

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I just don't understand why you keep assuming that you can't afford one of my animals without even giving me the chance to earn your business? :confuzd:

When you're ready to buy a ball python morph, if you're interested in one of my animals, I'll match the best price that you can find ... just for you. ;) :sweeet: :love:

-adam

okay so my opinion is - meet the seller. I can usually decide if i want to deal with a person simply by talking to him or her. Other factors come in to play, such as appearance, gender, cost of shipping, convenience of retrieval. Hypothetically, these factors are irrelevant to the scenario, but in real life they simply aren't going to be.

I'm not saying Adam and a small time guy are functionally the same. There are pros and cons to every arrangement, and it's by balancing those pros and cons that you decide who is going to get your purchase. People go for the familiar names because they're trustworthy. I try not to forget that someone less obvious might be just as worthy of my business. It all depends on how i feel after i've examined all the facts. I would like to sell my snakes someday, and i'm obviously not going to go from my bedroom operation to Adam's facility overnight. I will need some customers and opportunity to be able to make that transition, which means i will need some faith. As i require faith, i must also remember to occasionally give it when everything else checks out normally.

I think that is what's so great about expos and conferences. You can meet the breeders and sellers, get to know them. I think the internet is a great tool to expand your business, but I love to see my animals in person. And to talk to the breeder right there is such a huge plus.

Thank you everyone for your input, its been enlightening to hear everyones point of view :gj:

I have gone ahead and contacted Adam, perhaps I can have one of Adams animals some day

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I just don't understand why you keep assuming that you can't afford one of my animals without even giving me the chance to earn your business? :confuzd:

When you're ready to buy a ball python morph, if you're interested in one of my animals, I'll match the best price that you can find ... just for you. ;) :sweeet: :love:

-adam

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Adam could you do the same for me? I found some guy on a pet auction... he says he's from Africa.. says he can get me a animal really cheap!!!

j/k of course.

:gj::gj:


In all seriousness, don't rule out the little guys... or the slightly bigger guys, like me... :D Especially if you can see the animals in person, give them a chance. There are people looking to rip you off, but there also a lot of really qualified ppl out there who don't produce a lot of clutches and will definitely treat right.

And don't be afraid to actually call the bigger guys, like Adam or the really big guys like BHB. Just because the price says one thing doesn't mean that you can't get the animal you want for a good deal.

Justin

And Ashley.. If you're worried about feeding rats..

Feed mice :) They don't outgrow the snakes in a week's time(or ever).

I, as well as a few others, feed exclusively mice. The snakes thrive and have absolutely no problems.

I guess I need to update myself on the Florida Ratlist.. I didn't know you had given away your furkids/nekkids. Hope everything is ok.

That's another reason why I feed mice only. I am not about to bring unquarantined rats into my house since the snakes and pet rats are in the same room.

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Originally Posted by jkobylka

Adam could you do the same for me?

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Justin ... absolutely ANYTHING for you. :love: ;) :D

-adam

Becky, thank you for responding.. I do know we can feed only mice. You arent missing the thread on the list because the only people that know right now are Bella.. and you. Kitty had to stay because of my husband being madly in love with that rat (in a normal but loving pet owner way :gj:) and Belle stayed to keep Kitty company, I have had horrible allergy problems since the rats moved in and this was the only answer to that since I was the primary caretaker of the rats (hubby would just lift cage into shower) Dont the mice carry same diseases rats can? (getting off subject but so you didnt think i was ignoring you) The rest of the group has moved in with a friend of mine (a seasoned rat owner) and they are all happily living together still in one group... plus a few of hers.

Mice can carry the same diseases as rats, but it's not as common. I really haven't had any problems bringing mice into the house, but I've brought unquarantined rats in from PETSMART of all places and about 8 rats died within a week.. Yay Strep Pneumonia..

I just prefer to feed the mice because if they bite me once, I don't feel bad about feeding them off :) I have about 140 in the garage right now(I order 200 every 3-4 weeks to feed 35+ snakes)

Sorry your allergies got so bad! At least you got to keep two of your girls. Glad the others found a great home :)

To me my priorities are

1# Find the animal that appeals to me
2# Find a person that sell the animal I want and that I am comfortable to do business with (big or small name)

The price comes last.

Sometime if it feels right I like to give people a chance even if they are not a big name in this industry and don't produce 100's of animals just like I hope that one day someone will give me a chance.

In both cases whether I have bought from a small hobbyist or a professional breeder, I have always been very happy with my animals and the transactions, does it mean I would buy from anyone? No there are people out there that I would never do business with.

i would go with adam cause not only would i get a great snake....


i would get an 8ball t-shirt ?:P:P