Will They Miss Their Space?

I am moving my 2 BPs from tanks to tubs. I want to know if the downsize will effect them and will they miss the height that the tanks have they both like to climb at night and the height its getting cut in half. My 450g normal is moving from a 20L to a "31q" Rubbermaid and my 130g pastel from a 10gallon to a "12q" Rubbermaid. They are both doing well in their tanks but after reading about the ease of tubs I cant help but want to switch(I have never used tubs but I know tanks are a PAIN)

The opposite will probably happen...they'll feel much safer and secure in the tubs.

Whether or not theyll "miss" it is impossible to know... buuuut... If you still want to provide the height and the [I]option[I] for them to move around, get 66qt tubs... they have the same floor space as the others and also give em some height... Its what I use for my 3 07 babies and theyre out climbing everynight... Heres a pic of my 66qt set up... all 3 are the same...

https://ball-pythons.net/gallery/fil.../7/3/tubs1.jpg

Damn pic is small... check out my gallery theres more bigger pics there.

On that note, ball pythons are terrestrial, bulky and slow, and are rarely found at heights. They are particularly clumsy climbers. I know when I had a tall setup, my BP tried to climb everynight, and he fell several times. They can get injured, I worried about it all the time until I moved him into a tub.

I have all 3 of my BP's in tubs ( two late '06 and a july '07) in 32 qt tubs right now, and all three are eating me out of the house! I used to house my first BP in a 20gal long tank, but I was having too many problems with keeping the humidity up, and I needed to get a rack to be able to house all of my bps, so tubs were really the most economical choice for me. If I had to do it all over again, I would have started out with a tub. If you're worried about your BP's not getting any 'exercise' just take them out for 10 minutes a night (except for the 48hrs after being fed). That will give them all of the exercise that they need.

Each of my snakes gets free roam time twice a week for about an hour(in the summer its longer but my rooms kinda cold in the winter)... Its not uncommon at all where I let them loose and then find them climbing on dressers... bedposts... theyve even been known to climb above my windows and on the curtain rod... Connies right the younger ones tend to fall alot but i dont see how it can be too dangerous... its like a foot- foot 1/2 fall and their young... Ive had some babies dive bomb off my bed to the floor and thats like a 2-3ft drop and their fine... All 10 of my snakes have something to climb on and all 10 use em everynight

Keep in mind that bp's prefer small warm dark spaces to live in so the swtich from tank to tub will make them love you %100 more:gj:

Josh are you offering the advice that they can fall without getting hurt? You need to make it very clear what you mean. These animals aren't arboreal, or even semi-arboreal. Yes they can climb, but to say they are always fine when they take a 3 FOOT FALL is amazing.

They aren't talented climbers, and to let them fall when they are under your supervision is reckless.

My friends and family (don’t have snakes or know much about them) think is mean to keep them in such a "tiny" tub. I hate that people think they need tons of space like 55g tanks. Glad to hear my snakes wont HATE me for the downsize though.

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Originally Posted by CABALM

My friends and family (don’t have snakes or know much about them) think is mean to keep them in such a "tiny" tub. I hate that people think they need tons of space like 55g tanks. Glad to hear my snakes wont HATE me for the downsize though.

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Many people push our human emotions onto animals. It's good for sake of treating animals humanly, but when it comes to "feelings" I can't say I believe snakes can "feel" something for their surroundings or keepers. I think they can feel safe and secure, or fear and unsafe. With these animals, it's well documented that they sleep all day in small burrows, and come out at dawn and dusk primarily to feed. I think most people will agree with the idea that these snakes do very well in the tub or rack.

Well, in reality, there is no way that a snake can 'love' or 'hate' us. Those are just emotions that we press upon them to make them seem more human to us. Will they feel more secure? Yes. How can we tell? When I made the switch from tanks to tubs, I noticed an overall increase in her general health. Shed's were complete, appetites 'increased' (or they just showed more hunger/intrest in the prey item). It's really hard to put down in writing the difference that I have noticed in the behavior of my animals, but I did notice a change for the better after the initial setteling in period was over.

So after the switch should I let them settle in for a week like when getting a new snake?

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Originally Posted by CABALM

So after the switch should I let them settle in for a week like when getting a new snake?

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Did you mean, let them settle for a week before offering food? I think that's what you meant. Yes, a week works well.

And yes, the period when getting a new animal and settling them in their enclosure is usually a week with no disturbing or handling. (You can change water and substrate if they mess it)

yup. The only time that you should be in their cage is for general maintainence, aka cleaning, changing out water. If your normal feeding schedule takes place during that week time span, you can try feeding them, but don't be too worried if they don't eat for you. They'll probably still be setteling in. Just wait until the next week to feed if they refuse.

I didnt say it was great for them to fall... Its like a kid.. Your tellin me as a kid you never did something stupid that could have hurt you?? I know from experience Ive shot my self off of several jumps only to come crashing to the ground... I was fine bc I was young and my body can take it... If your going to say a snake cant handle a 2-3 foot fall then maybe you should go into the wild and see a snake fall 10ft from a tree and be fine... Theses animals have been around for millions of years... If they were fragile like glass they would have become extinct thousands of years ago...

OP... I think like your family and friends which is why I offer more room for my snakes... Ill agree a tub is the way to go but thats more related to humidity/temps than it is for size... I have my 07 clown I just got on tuesday in a 96qt tub... ate fine for me after only days. If you dont think they need the space... then dont give it to them...

I just dont believe in limiting an animals surroundings bc we "think" they like it better... I offer the room and let them decide... If I had a problem and it turned out the size of the tank was the issue id change it but 10 snakes latter ive had to make that change 0 times.

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

I didnt say it was great for them to fall... Its like a kid.. Your tellin me as a kid you never did something stupid that could have hurt you?? I know from experience Ive shot my self off of several jumps only to come crashing to the ground... I was fine bc I was young and my body can take it... If your going to say a snake cant handle a 2-3 foot fall then maybe you should go into the wild and see a snake fall 10ft from a tree and be fine... Theses animals have been around for millions of years... If they were fragile like glass they would have become extinct thousands of years ago...

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Yes, we've all seen the animal planet show with snakes falling from trees 12-15 feet high. Black Mambas, jungle carpets and other ARBOREAL SPECIES.

All snakes are built generally the same, but have differences that make them suitable for a certain type of habitat.
Ball pythons are short and stocky with a rounded A shape, suitable for terrestrial ranges.
Jungle carpets, GTP are built strongly with the general O shape, but are incredibly long to help them climb fantastically well in the trees.
Bloods, anacondas and other water snakes are built with an oval shape best suited for water and boggy habitats.

The point is again, they are not arboreal and are not well suited for climbing. If you are going to argue that Balls are excellent climbers, do some research and convince us that its true. I don't see the benefit of letting a ball python potentially harm itself by letting it climb to some heights when they WILL fall eventually.

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

I didnt say it was great for them to fall... Its like a kid.. Your tellin me as a kid you never did something stupid that could have hurt you?? I know from experience Ive shot my self off of several jumps only to come crashing to the ground... I was fine bc I was young and my body can take it... If your going to say a snake cant handle a 2-3 foot fall then maybe you should go into the wild and see a snake fall 10ft from a tree and be fine... Theses animals have been around for millions of years... If they were fragile like glass they would have become extinct thousands of years ago...

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I understand the point you are trying to make, but your comparisons are flawed. Ball pythons have been around for millions of years because of how they've adapted to their environment, you're making comparisons on a macro scale - the species would still survive regardless if 1% of them died from falls or otherwise clumsy behavior.

We aren't talking about the wild - we're talking about captivity. It is the keepers responsibility to keep their snakes as safe and out of harms way as possible. Period. You can't justify anything less just because "well they'll survive it if it happens and it will make them stronger." That's not how it should work, but unfortunately there are many keepers out there that roll the dice with their snake's well-being every day. I prefer not to.

OK but if they want to climb theyll climb right? Retics are known to be excellent climbers and i think we can all agree theyre much much larger than balls... To say a snake isnt "built" for climbing is kinda silly... Again i offer them the opportunity to climb... I do not make them... THEY choose to climb which tells me they enjoy climbing... If 1/2 of mine didnt climb id say maybe you have a point... but since all 10 climb... i cant agree with you... Yours dont climb bc they dont have the opportunity to... plain and simple.

Roll the dice??... So your telling me im a reckless owner bc I allow my snakes to climb??... Can we please take the height into consideration... Did i say i was dropping them out of my window from the 2nd floor? No.. is a snake going to get seriously hurt fallin a ft 1/2?? Prolly not... is there a chance... yea there is... is there a chance your going to get in a car accident and kill yourself every time you get in your car? Yea... Does that stop you from driving... I dont think so

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

OK but if they want to climb theyll climb right? Retics are known to be excellent climbers

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Retics, for their extreme size, are relatively slender.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when they are young and juveniles, that is the only time they are found in trees, because they're not heavy or bulky.

FWIW, there's been studies of wild ball pythons and they've found young males in trees, for whatever reasons. Perhaps to escape predators, other larger dominant males in the area, or to hunt for food (small birds or smaller arboreal mammals). Meanwhile, the larger adults are always found on or in the ground.

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

Each of my snakes gets free roam time twice a week for about an hour(in the summer its longer but my rooms kinda cold in the winter)... Its not uncommon at all where I let them loose and then find them climbing on dressers... bedposts... theyve even been known to climb above my windows and on the curtain rod...

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You stated you let them roam wherever they wanted and later find them in strange places, and that is reckless.
Above the window? Again, windows are pretty high up for a BP to be. Sounds reckless to me. :rolleyes:

Honestly I could care less if you think its reckless... My snakes are prolly some of the happiest tamest snakes around... everynight ALL of them are at their doors WAITING to come out... and when I put them back in.. they do everything they can to get back OUT bc they ENJOY the freedom they have... You can keep your snakes in a bubble and make sure nothing ever happens to em but dont call me a "reckless owner" bc I allow them more freedom.

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

Honestly I could care less if you think its reckless... My snakes are prolly some of the happiest tamest snakes around... everynight ALL of them are at their doors WAITING to come out... and when I put them back in.. they do everything they can to get back OUT bc they ENJOY the freedom they have... You can keep your snakes in a bubble and make sure nothing ever happens to em but dont call me a "reckless owner" bc I allow them more freedom.

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I don't think what you are doing is reckless - you seem like a concerned keeper just like the rest of us, but does things in a slightly different way than others.

What I took exception to is when you said that you justified taking risks based on flawed reasoning.

By what standard are you concluding that your snakes 'enjoy' climbing or being out of their cage to explore? Have you considered that possibility that they may not actually enjoy it, and that exploratory behavior is the result of the stress of being removed from their enclosure and freeroaming in new surroundings? Basically, trying to 'get settled' and find a new, safe place to hide - be it on a bedpost or on top of a window treatment? Have you considered the possibility that your snakes' willingness to escape could be a symptom that they aren't comfortable with their existing enclosures? Support your argument for this type of treatment being worth the risks associated with it.

My supports is that if theyre trying to find a comphy dark warm place to chill... How come they never stop? Theyre ALWAYS moving.... If i cant find em... give it 5-10 mins and theyre out in the open again... More justification... Why would all them be at their cage doors waiting to be taken out? Theyve come out so many times now its just expected... How do i know they enjoy climbing? well i put them on the floor and find them on the bed... i know they didnt jump up there... If they didnt enjoy climbing why would they be all over the plastic tree thingys i provide them with? Its all reading the snakes body language... If you want to take a trip up to syr, NY id be more than glad to show you what I mean... Ill take some pics tonight when theyre awake... I guess theres no other justification I can give you online... You just need to experience it...

If they were insecure about their current living situation wouldnt they show signs of stress? Not eating? ... all of my snakes sleep all day just like everyone elses theres nothing abnormal about the way they act... like i said... if they were unhappy wouldnt they be unfriendly not overly friendly?

Hey, if you feel like they like it and they're thriving, that's totally cool. I just can't advocate giving that kind of advice out to a new keeper (the majority of those reading this site) who hasn't had experience with snakes long enough to develop an eye for when things are good or bad with them.

This is amazing. I had my new girl fall twice.. about a foot because she hangs out on the little handle part of the tub. She won't be able to fit there much longer though. She's still alive!

Like Josh said, nobody is dangling the snakes off the top of a building before letting them so they can determine if concrete is a forgiving surface. That's how you're all acting.

About the original post, missing their space, everyone just says: "They'll feel secure." I agree. But mostly you'll feel better about cramming a ton of snakes into a room of your house by putting them in 12qt tubs. I THINK that should only be temporary for hatchlings awaiting a new home.

How about balls in the wild? All they have is ..whatever they squeeze into in order to feel safe. That's why they're given hides.

I'm going to go out and say this, no one will be able to tell me different because I'm sure none of you have tried it, I bet a ball python could live in my house and roam all over IF it had sufficent conditions: hides, humdity, temps, etc.
A lot of people act like these snakes will perish if they're not kept in a tiny enclosure.

You could lock me in a warm closet and give me food, I'll trust that no one will sneak up on me and kill me, but i'm still not going to like it.

I don't think anyone is saying that anyone drops their snakes out of a 2nd floor window. But at the same time I agree that when given the option balls will choose to explore their surroundings and yes that includes climbing. I have 7 ball pythons and all of them when given the option choose to climb and explore.


Perfect example, as I am sitting here and typing this response I have an 07 baby on my lap and she keeps trying to get off the couch and go exploring. Twice in the last hour she has succeeded and has "fallen" off the couch. She did not get hurt, she was no stressed, when i picked her back up and put her on the couch it was more like "ah man I didnt get away again" She continues to climb around on the couch, going into the cushions, on my, climbing up and down my legs ( she has found a better way to get to the floor).


In a few hours when it is feeding time I will go into the snake room and find all 7 of my balls exploring their tubs, both the climbing structures that I placed in them along with going up the walls, the hides and the water dishes. It is an awesome experience have the ability to watch my snakes explore their tubs and move around in them. If you have not had that experience I highly recommend you try it soon!!


Don't bash it until you try it!!

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OK but if they want to climb theyll climb right?To say a snake isnt "built" for climbing is kinda silly... Again i offer them the opportunity to climb... I do not make them...

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Again, provide what evidence you have that ball pythons are excellent climbers, and perhaps we can drive to add ball pythons to an arboreal catagory.

To say that "it's silly" that ball pythons aren't built for climbing is wrong. Ball pythons CAN climb, it does not mean they are exceptional climbers, or "built" for climbing.

I think I stated the different shapes of snakes, (please correct me if i'm wrong) and ball pythons are "terrestrial". Are you arguing that they aren't? I'm not saying they should never have a chance to climb, or that it's bad to offer a small tree in a short tub, but if I were to put a ball python in an arboreal cage with a fake tree, I will eventually end up with an injured or dead ball python. Because they are not good climbers.

They may climb around that fake tree all night in an an enclosure like that, but I would honestly never risk that because of the idea they enjoy it. They are most likely trying to find food, or escape.

Well I don't know what you want me to say. There are two very different schools of thought behind these posts.

One is that snakes don't feel emotions. They survive on instinct, and can't feel happy or sad about their enclosure, handler or food. I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

Then the other idea is, snakes judge their surroundings and find them either pleasing or constrictive by reasoning. They feel a whole range of emotions like anger, love, affection, disgust. They can identify those people they care for, and strive to be with them or please them. Or they strive to please themselves with activites and actions based on them reasoning.

I don't believe the second one. I don't think snakes can feel emotions the same way mammals and higher animals do. I would never agree with your statements that your snakes are trying to visit with you and want to roam for fun.

I am of the mind they want to secure their settings by first confirming there are no immediate threats, then they will find a small secure place to hide until it is time to feed or breed.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well I don't know what you want me to say. There are two very different schools of thought behind these posts.

One is that snakes don't feel emotions. They survive on instinct, and can't feel happy or sad about their enclosure, handler or food. I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

Then the other idea is, snakes judge their surroundings and find them either pleasing or constrictive by reasoning. They feel a whole range of emotions like anger, love, affection, disgust. They can identify those people they care for, and strive to be with them or please them. Or they strive to please themselves with activites and actions based on them reasoning.

I don't believe the second one. I don't think snakes can feel emotions the same way mammals and higher animals do. I would never agree with your statements that your snakes are trying to visit with you and want to roam for fun.

I am of the mind they want to secure their settings by first confirming there are no immediate threats, then they will find a small secure place to hide until it is time to feed or breed.

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I agree 100%. I think some people are posting based on the assumption that their snakes have feelings for them, do something for "fun", or are going to get depressed.

I think not.

It has nothing to do with feelings... its all about OFFERING the option to climb... thats it... I NEVER told ANYONE to put their BP in an aboreal cage so i think your taking this to the extreme... I didnt know a 66qt tub thats like 14inchs high was considered aboreal? ... again when did i say they were excellent climbers? NEVER i never said they were like spider man ... i simply said based on experience... mine climb... period... thats it nothing more... Again lets put more words in joshs mouth... please show me where i said " i let mine out to roam so they can have fun and play"... you wont find it bc I NEVER SAID IT!!... I let them out for free roam to get some exercise and a little more stimulation... I think your all taking this a little too far... All i told the OP is if he wanted to provide more room so his snakes could move and climb... go with a 66qt tub and again i still stand 100% behind this statement...

Lets remember this post isnt about josh and what he does with his

In the end everyone will read the posts and make up their own mind. :)

Which is fine... I have no problem with some putting their snake in small enclosures and others in larger one... I have a problem when someone tells me Im giving bad advice when i tell them they can go with a 66qt for a baby.

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Originally Posted by MikeC1212

I'm going to go out and say this, no one will be able to tell me different because I'm sure none of you have tried it, I bet a ball python could live in my house and roam all over IF it had sufficent conditions: hides, humdity, temps, etc.
A lot of people act like these snakes will perish if they're not kept in a tiny enclosure.

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Until you try you won't know for sure so you're argument proves nothing.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

One is that snakes don't feel emotions. They survive on instinct, and can't feel happy or sad about their enclosure, handler or food. I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

Then the other idea is, snakes judge their surroundings and find them either pleasing or constrictive by reasoning. They feel a whole range of emotions like anger, love, affection, disgust. They can identify those people they care for, and strive to be with them or please them. Or they strive to please themselves with activites and actions based on them reasoning.

I don't believe the second one. I don't think snakes can feel emotions the same way mammals and higher animals do. I would never agree with your statements that your snakes are trying to visit with you and want to roam for fun.

I am of the mind they want to secure their settings by first confirming there are no immediate threats, then they will find a small secure place to hide until it is time to feed or breed.

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I agree with you here.

For all you people that have snakes which "like" doing things there should be things your snakes "don't like" doing; which to me demonstrates preference. Right? Preference requires some sort of rational brain process, "I like cherries because they're sweet". To like something requires a reason, what are you snakes reasons for liking climbing? How do you know for sure?

If this is the case and snakes have these rational thought processes then why on feeding day when the smell of rat is in the air will you get tagged if you stick your hand in their enclosures? Shouldn't they recognize you as the hand that feeds them, no pun intended?

You get tagged bc theyre hungry and they want food... They confuse your hand for the rat alot like a shark confuses a human with a seal... They smell the rat... Know theyre getting food... and strike at the first thing they see... Ive never had this problem bc i feed in a feeding tub... never been tagged reaching in my snakes tubs bc they know they dont get fed in there...

Do i know they "like" to climb... No i cant speak snake and none of em have ever wrote it down for me... BUT... I do know that ALL TEN of my snakes use the fake trees for climbing on at night so common sense... not preference.... tells me they enjoy climbing on what Ive provided them with or else

why would they be on there??? Your explanation is "theyre trying to get out... they want food".... well the doors to my custom cages are in the front... Why would they be climbing up if the doors not up??.... "They want food"... Theyve never been fed in their enclosures so why would they think theres food in there? Plus theyll be out THE DAY AFTER being fed... climbing around... They must want more food right?


Maybe its that they just slept for the past 10hrs... and want to move around a lil bit... Kinda like a human sitting in a car for 10 hrs wants to get up and walk... Oh wait i prolly shouldnt mention human charateristics cause youll pull the "emotions" card on me again...

You have nothing back your explanations up but "maybe its this... maybe its that"... How to scientists prove out a hypothesis?? They run an experiement right? Well my mini experiement was.. will snakes climb on this fake tree if i put it in its tank? or am i wasting my money?

10 snakes later and the answer is still the same... yes they will climb... whether or not they "like" it... i could care less.. all I know is they use it... and nothing anyone says will change that...

Why dont yall take 1 snake... offer it room to climb and something to climb on and see if you ever find them on it... I got 10 saying they do... Any takers?

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

Until you try you won't know for sure so you're argument proves nothing.

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Argument? It was an exaggerated prediction. I never told anyone it was a good idea. I was making a statement of my belief.. which is BPs can and should live in something larger than a 12qt tub. Thanks for tuning in. Re-read if you have to.

Another belief: (not argument, let's straighten that out for the "haters") Just because a snake is terrestrial doesn't mean he's grounded from climbing. It means a majority of the time is spent on the ground, not all of it's time.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

To say that "it's silly" that ball pythons aren't built for climbing is wrong. Ball pythons CAN climb, it does not mean they are exceptional climbers, or "built" for climbing.

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:rolleyes: I think that's what I said.

OK so why was it even mentioned that theyre terrestrial??... No one said they were aboreal or were built for climbing... simply put... given the option to climb... they will climb... are you disputing that?

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

OK so why was it even mentioned that theyre terrestrial??... No one said they were aboreal or were built for climbing... simply put... given the option to climb... they will climb... are you disputing that?

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Oh no, I'm not disputing that at all. I have said they are not good climbers, and can fall and hurt themselves when given the opportunity to climb. (Compared to an arboreal animal)

(This is my first post on this thread)

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

On that note, ball pythons are terrestrial, bulky and slow, and are rarely found at heights. They are particularly clumsy climbers. I know when I had a tall setup, my BP tried to climb everynight, and he fell several times. They can get injured, I worried about it all the time until I moved him into a tub.

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That's been my view this whole time. They don't climb extremely well, and will fall.

OK so why are you and I arguing bc I agreed with you haha? I admitt they are clumsy as babies but I honestly dont think theyd be hurt seriously falling from the top of a 14inch tub. If there was a good chance that would happen would i keep a 4k snake in there? no way in hell... but since it would take freak accident for that to happen... i guess im will to take the risk.

14 inches may not sound like alot to you,

but when we were keeping my male in a tall tank, he would roam around on a tree (exactly like you have in your pics) and try to climb around the top of the tank. BUT he did fall numerous times. He would propel himself till he was barely holding anything, and fall HARD. He has landed on his water dish, his tree, his hides.

I worried about him hurting himself because the *thunk* was so loud, that I decided to not risk any climbing accidents and put him in a tub. He has settled down and is completely fine.
I personally wasn't going to allow him the chance to get hurt by moving him to a shallow or low enclosure.

Balls may be better climbers when they are young, but with my past experience, I won't allow mine that opportunity to climb like I did before.

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Originally Posted by MikeC1212

Argument? It was an exaggerated prediction. I never told anyone it was a good idea. I was making a statement of my belief.. which is BPs can and should live in something larger than a 12qt tub. Thanks for tuning in. Re-read if you have to.

Another belief: (not argument, let's straighten that out for the "haters") Just because a snake is terrestrial doesn't mean he's grounded from climbing. It means a majority of the time is spent on the ground, not all of it's time.

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Whats wrong with the word argument?

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Originally Posted by JoshJP7

OK so why are you and I arguing bc I agreed with you haha? I admitt they are clumsy as babies but I honestly dont think theyd be hurt seriously falling from the top of a 14inch tub. If there was a good chance that would happen would i keep a 4k snake in there? no way in hell... but since it would take freak accident for that to happen... i guess im will to take the risk.

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Freak accidents do happen, as long as you're willing to accept the risk associated then I see no problems with you offering climbing objects.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ght=snake+died

Edit: Before someone points it out not trying to prove that climbing is fatal just that freak accidents occur.

Which is cool.. I see your concern... I guess I'm just not soo worried bc youd think if it hurt them to fall then they wouldnt do it? Either way only my babies do it... After 6 months or so theyre too big and cant fit on the lil handle ledge anymore and the falling stops... None of my older balls have fallen while climbing in their tubs so again my worries are very little... I say younger balls arent good climbers which is why they fall alot... their more fearless and curious about things which is why I let them explore... Everyone seems to think theyre "stressed, hungry or trying to escape" when really theyre just young curious snakes wanting to know whats on the other side of the tub...

In that post he said he assumes thats what happened based on what he found... Could have been something wrong with the snake that he never knew about... IF it actually did fall and somehow that caused its death like I said this is a freak accident just like someone being struck with lightning... can it happen? yea sure... just like I could win the lotto... is it likely?? prolly not... but in the great words of Loyd Christmas...

SO YOUR SAYING THERES A CHANCE!

Josh,

My edit was a little late I guess lol

Being at work screws up my posting times. I know we don't know for sure just trying to show how you can never be to sure about things.

I understand it can happen but to me the chances of it happenin are so slim that I feel its worth the risk to give them the extra space...

Either way I dont want any hard feelings between any other posters and I... My intentions with this post wasnt to cause problems or stirr things up it was just providing another way of doing things and my reasoning for doing it.

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Well I don't know what you want me to say. There are two very different schools of thought behind these posts.

One is that snakes don't feel emotions. They survive on instinct, and can't feel happy or sad about their enclosure, handler or food. I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

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I am of the mind they want to secure their settings by first confirming there are no immediate threats, then they will find a small secure place to hide until it is time to feed or breed.

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I understand that people do not think that snakes have "feelings" but last time i checked stress is considered a feeling or emotion. If snakes do not have feelings how can they become stressed out?

If you are going on the idea that snakes have basic insticts then they have flight or fight, they either flee or they bite you, one or the other. So based on that if my snake was feeling threatened by its surroundings because of having too large of an enclosure or offering it too many hides or climbing obstacles then it would either flee, find a place to hide, or it would strike at me or whatever else it felt threatened by.

Also if you want to go along the lines that snakes have no emotions or feelings, do you include other pets along the same lines? such as dogs, horses, cats, ect. ?? Where do you get your evidence or your assumptions that snakes do not have feelings or emotions? Have you talked to your snake?

No I am not saying that a snake is like a dog and is going to go lick your face because he is excited to see you but I am trying to point out that you can't just say that they have no feelings or emotions when you have no proof. You may not like my proof but atleast I have it.

One of my examples is one of my snakes did not particularly like my boyfriend but he "liked" me. He didn't want anything to do with my bf and would try to get away from him but with me he would just chill on me while I was sitting on the couch. He would let me pick him up, touch him, hold him, whatever. Yes you can connect the "Fight or Flee" theory to this example when you try to describe his reaction to my boyfriend but how do you use it to describe his reaction to me????? He did not try to bite me or get away from me.



And again going back to you saying that a snake will go and find a place to hide until it is ready to feed or eat. Yesturday, as I was typing my last post, the 07 baby I had neither tried to flee from me and find a place to hide or tried to fight me. She went from one end of the couch to the other, went over me, up and down my arms and legs. There were many places that should could have hid, under blankets, pillows, in the couch, or she could have tried to get away and would have went to one end of the couch and climbed down but she did neither. She stayed with me and continued to explore her surroundings, climbing over me, the posts, and throughout the blankets.

If you have not had that type of experience with your snake I would recommend trying it. It is pretty cool having a snake, an animal that many people feel threatened by and are scared off, continue to come back to you and let you touch it over and over again. You may laugh at me and say Im pushing my feelings and emotions onto a snake but in the end I know that relationship that I have with my pets most likely is nothing close to what you have with yours.

To clear it up.....I am not saying that snakes DO have feelings but i am also not saying that they DON'T. There is no proof on either end and its silly to have people judge people because they believe one thing or another.

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Originally Posted by Stetle49

I understand that people do not think that snakes have "feelings" but last time i checked stress is considered a feeling or emotion. If snakes do not have feelings how can they become stressed out?

If you are going on the idea that snakes have basic insticts then they have flight or fight, they either flee or they bite you, one or the other. So based on that if my snake was feeling threatened by its surroundings because of having too large of an enclosure or offering it too many hides or climbing obstacles then it would either flee, find a place to hide, or it would strike at me or whatever else it felt threatened by.

Also if you want to go along the lines that snakes have no emotions or feelings, do you include other pets along the same lines? such as dogs, horses, cats, ect. ?? Where do you get your evidence or your assumptions that snakes do not have feelings or emotions? Have you talked to your snake?

No I am not saying that a snake is like a dog and is going to go lick your face because he is excited to see you but I am trying to point out that you can't just say that they have no feelings or emotions when you have no proof. You may not like my proof but atleast I have it.

One of my examples is one of my snakes did not particularly like my boyfriend but he "liked" me. He didn't want anything to do with my bf and would try to get away from him but with me he would just chill on me while I was sitting on the couch. He would let me pick him up, touch him, hold him, whatever. Yes you can connect the "Fight or Flee" theory to this example when you try to describe his reaction to my boyfriend but how do you use it to describe his reaction to me????? He did not try to bite me or get away from me.



And again going back to you saying that a snake will go and find a place to hide until it is ready to feed or eat. Yesturday, as I was typing my last post, the 07 baby I had neither tried to flee from me and find a place to hide or tried to fight me. She went from one end of the couch to the other, went over me, up and down my arms and legs. There were many places that should could have hid, under blankets, pillows, in the couch, or she could have tried to get away and would have went to one end of the couch and climbed down but she did neither. She stayed with me and continued to explore her surroundings, climbing over me, the posts, and throughout the blankets.

If you have not had that type of experience with your snake I would recommend trying it. It is pretty cool having a snake, an animal that many people feel threatened by and are scared off, continue to come back to you and let you touch it over and over again. You may laugh at me and say Im pushing my feelings and emotions onto a snake but in the end I know that relationship that I have with my pets most likely is nothing close to what you have with yours.

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God bless America...

Just like we have no proof to show snakes have no emotions you equally have no proof that they do. I'm not claiming either is right but you'll tend to find that people who feel they have emotions with argue that it is the absolute truth.

Stress is not an emotional but a bodily response to an environment...
http://www.answers.com/topic/stress

"Stress

Definition

Stress is defined as an organism's total response to environmental demands or pressures. When stress was first studied in the 1950s, the term was used to denote both the causes and the experienced effects of these pressures. More recently, however, the word stressor has been used for the stimulus that provokes a stress response. One recurrent disagreement among researchers concerns the definition of stress in humans. Is it primarily an external response that can be measured by changes in glandular secretions, skin reactions, and other physical functions, or is it an internal interpretation of, or reaction to, a stressor; or is it both?"

~When we refer to stress in snakes the stimuli would be: large enclosure, low temps, improper humidity etc.

The response to the stimuli or how the snakes shows stress would be not eating, constant roaming, development of immune system issues.

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I believe they can feel either stressed and fearful, or secure and content. Whether it's towards their enviroment or keeper. They strive to find a secure setting, and strive to find food because they are basing their actions on their instincts.

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I still believe this. Your experiences have made up your mind. I still believe they do not have the reasoning skills like mammals and higher animals. And yes, I believe your viewing basic instinctive actions as a reasoned self conscious thought.
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If you want to view a snake's being secure around you as affection, that's fine. But I think your pushing qualifications on them they aren't readily deserving of.

And I feel that if you also have the same experienced your opinion would change. Which is why I am suggesting that you try it sometime, it is pretty cool!!:)