Low maintenance tank decor suggestions

I’m planning to get my first snake. I’m thinking about tank decor and I would like to strike a balance between aesthetics and ease of cleaning. Anyone have any tips to share? Im thinking maybe just using brown paper towel for sub. What about machine washing tank decor like hides and plants?

I may be an outlier, but aesthetics are of no real importance to me with my snake tanks. My priorities are temp and humidity, making the snake feel safe/low stress environment, and cleanliness.

For what's worth and IMO, your snake does not care as long as his/her needs are met. Snakes want to feel safe. That's a huge priority for them. BP's, which I see you are interested in getting, are burrowing snakes and in captivity want safe places to hide and feel snug.

Get hides that are easy to clean and will feel snug to the snake. Plastic hides like these are great. Easy to clean and when snug, will keep your snake feeling safe and secure.

https://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes

https://www.reptilebasics.com/large-hide-box

What kind of enclosure are you looking into getting? If it's a glass tank (which I do not recommend), you will likely need some form of substrate to keep humidity up. If it is a PVC enclosure with a clear door in front and sides you cannot see in or out of, humidity should not be an issue because of the nature of the tank and how well it holds temps as well. In those, you can use paper substrate. I love paper substrate. Others do not. I am immune compromised due to a kidney transplant and nothing is cleaner and easier to clean than paper substrate.

I use printless newspaper.

https://www.uline.com/BL_1953/Newsprint-Sheets

For keeping the tank clean, make sure you have a good cleaner that is reptile safe and diluted to the proper formulation/ratio. I like this: https://www.reptilebasics.com/cleani...centrate-32oz/

Great disinfectant and deodorizer. Make sure to follow the directions of any cleaner/disinfectant. For example, this needs to sit for 10 minutes to be fully effective and then should be wiped up with a wet cloth. I use a mister to spray a little water on the surfaces I just cleaned (usually tank floor and walls) and then wipe up. Pretty easy.

I have spoken to the owner of the company and he is knowledgeable. Zoos use it too, but often in a higher concentration than you should. I have 9 reptiles tanks and go through about 1 oz a month, if that. This will last you a long time and the deodorizing aspect is huge.

If you want plants and other decor items, make sure they are easy to clean. Also make sure they are not sharp anywhere. Even a slight edge can hurt a snake who likes to explore and push on things. Also, a hungry snake striking prey is indiscriminate. I have had snakes miss a F/T rat and hit hides easily. Smooth edges.

Fake plants with big leaves are easier to clean than tiny leaves, for example.

Others can chime in on tank decor. However, please focus on husbandry over aesthetics. Also, per my response on your other post - regarding what I wish I knew before getting snakes - IMO, a BP is not a display animal. If you want something pretty to look at in your living room, etc. a BP might not be the right choice. They want quiet and solitude over commotion. Putting a tank somewhere where you can see the snake and the snake tank often might be pleasing for you, but probably not your snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

I may be an outlier, but aesthetics are of no real importance to me with my snake tanks. My priorities are temp and humidity, making the snake feel safe/low stress environment, and cleanliness.

For what's worth and IMO, your snake does not care as long as his/her needs are met. Snakes want to feel safe. That's a huge priority for them. BP's, which I see you are interested in getting, are burrowing snakes and in captivity want safe places to hide and feel snug.

Get hides that are easy to clean and will feel snug to the snake. Plastic hides like these are great. Easy to clean and when snug, will keep your snake feeling safe and secure.

https://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes

https://www.reptilebasics.com/large-hide-box

What kind of enclosure are you looking into getting? If it's a glass tank (which I do not recommend), you will likely need some form of substrate to keep humidity up. If it is a PVC enclosure with a clear door in front and sides you cannot see in or out of, humidity should not be an issue because of the nature of the tank and how well it holds temps as well. In those, you can use paper substrate. I love paper substrate. Others do not. I am immune compromised due to a kidney transplant and nothing is cleaner and easier to clean than paper substrate.

I use printless newspaper.

https://www.uline.com/BL_1953/Newsprint-Sheets

For keeping the tank clean, make sure you have a good cleaner that is reptile safe and diluted to the proper formulation/ratio. I like this: https://www.reptilebasics.com/cleani...centrate-32oz/

Great disinfectant and deodorizer. Make sure to follow the directions of any cleaner/disinfectant. For example, this needs to sit for 10 minutes to be fully effective and then should be wiped up with a wet cloth. I use a mister to spray a little water on the surfaces I just cleaned (usually tank floor and walls) and then wipe up. Pretty easy.

I have spoken to the owner of the company and he is knowledgeable. Zoos use it too, but often in a higher concentration than you should. I have 9 reptiles tanks and go through about 1 oz a month, if that. This will last you a long time and the deodorizing aspect is huge.

If you want plants and other decor items, make sure they are easy to clean. Also make sure they are not sharp anywhere. Even a slight edge can hurt a snake who likes to explore and push on things. Also, a hungry snake striking prey is indiscriminate. I have had snakes miss a F/T rat and hit hides easily. Smooth edges.

Fake plants with big leaves are easier to clean than tiny leaves, for example.

Others can chime in on tank decor. However, please focus on husbandry over aesthetics. Also, per my response on your other post - regarding what I wish I knew before getting snakes - IMO, a BP is not a display animal. If you want something pretty to look at in your living room, etc. a BP might not be the right choice. They want quiet and solitude over commotion. Putting a tank somewhere where you can see the snake and the snake tank often might be pleasing for you, but probably not your snake.

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I’ve been planning on getting a front opening PVC tank. I have to say, this conversation is really comforting to me because I am actually in the middle of getting a serious and life changing medical diagnosis and I suspect the treatment may involve immune suppression. When I realized the direction the diagnostics were taking (yesterday PM) I pretty much just cried for hours and the only thing that could distract me last night at all was thinking about getting this snake. And then I realized that I might be on immunosuppressants and that I might not be able to get a snake after wanting one for years and that was very upsetting. This isn’t even what lead me to post this question, I’m just the kind of person who prioritizes low maintenance anyways, but what you said about keeping snakes while immunocompromised gives me a lot of hope. Thanks so much for your thorough answer! All of this information will be really helpful to me and for sure confirms in my mind that PVC is the right way to go as I am seriously concerned about mold growth in wood type subs.


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@ROSIEonFIRE: I'm sorry that you're dealing with some sort of medical issue & a difficult diagnosis- I know how scary that can be, but honestly, sooner or later, that's most everyone ;)...so take heart. You're right to ask questions about keeping pets while keeping yourself safe too, health-wise, & snakes are a good choice IMO. The trouble is that if you ask your doctor about it, roughly one in a thousand might actually know enough about keeping snakes to give you an accurate response- there is a LOT of misinformation about snakes carrying salmonella (it's mostly aquatic turtles & various lizards- bearded dragons can carry quite a few things too) but snakes are just not a big offender in this area. Sadly, there is rampant hatred of snakes so it's way more likely that your doctors will be repeating false & negative information about their health risk to you- so be prepared, not shocked, okay?

Sure, snakes can carry some pathogens, but since they're cold-blooded, they tend to have very different issues than us warm-blooded types get. There's also ways to mitigate the risks- use a decent (but snake-safe) disinfectant to clean the enclosure (glass is recommended- it's easier to sanitize, as is PVC), wash your hands, wear a mask when cleaning the enclosure (to avoid breathing air- born particles), etc. And don't handle your snake in the kitchen or when eating.
Also get acquainted with your nearest reptile-qualified vet: https://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

I've kept a house-full of snakes for almost 40 years now with no adverse health issues for myself, & they've always been throughout my house- in my bedrooms, den, living room & even my large dining room- not locked away in a "snake room". I vividly remember many years ago when a doctor hurriedly MIS-diagnosed me with a serious autoimmune condition based on aberrant lab work only, instead of considering all the factors needed for that diagnosis, & which happily proved to be quite false, but I didn't know that for quite some time. :( When my stress was reduced, voila! No more "condition"-my bloodwork was normal- I was lucky. Anyway, I want to point out that the comfort & "distraction from negativity" that a cherished pet can bring you can be a very POSITIVE factor in your health also, as I hope it will be for you. That doesn't mean you should take unnecessary chances, of course, & your questions about maintaining a ball python are the right way to proceed.

I'm more about convenience too, when it comes to substrates & keeping snakes. I honestly don't like newspaper though, as it offers no traction for snakes, & also because their feces will sit there waiting to be slid thru- it's not that absorbent. I prefer to line my tanks with white paper towels (better absorption), folding up the edges so there's no "spill-over", then adding dry substrate over that. In my case, since I keep colubrids these days (had BPs in the past), I use a mixture of Carefresh* & paper shreds (from my own shredder- bills & such). That adds plenty of 'cush' for the snake to even burrow in, & makes spot-cleaning easier. *You would NOT want to use Carefresh for a BP though, or any snake that needs higher humidity, as that product is actually hygroscopic & will work against you. But if you check around, there's various shredded paper substrates you can buy- Chewy carries quite a few, for example. And U-line, as dakski mentioned, has some options too, if you want to use a "cage liner". (When using 'dry' substrates for a BP- you should also make them a large "humid hide". Saturated & drained moss is excellent & can be rinsed & re-used unless contaminated with feces.)

Apart from the substrate, you can give a more natural appearance to a glass tank by installing scenic background (outside the tank, on the back & sides) which also offers privacy for the snake- shy snakes like BPs appreciate that. (Never mind- you did say PVC-) And you can use some natural branches or driftwood for low climbing (BPs are not big climbers but they enjoy some variety). The branches can be sprayed with your disinfectant, & dried before re-installing. (NEVER use bleach on branches or anything porous though- it will not rinse away & the fumes are deadly to snakes- not good for us either.) Best disinfectants would be the F-10, or chlorhexidine (diluted, which is what I use). You can ask your vet too- they might be will to sell you a small bottle of what they use- since some of these products only come in amounts that you'll have trouble using up with only one snake. I too use the Reptile Basics black hides- easy to clean, & many sizes available.

More questions? Keep 'em coming- we're here to help. :)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

@ROSIEonFIRE: I'm sorry that you're dealing with some sort of medical issue & a difficult diagnosis- I know how scary that can be, but honestly, sooner or later, that's most everyone ;)...so take heart. You're right to ask questions about keeping pets while keeping yourself safe too, health-wise, & snakes are a good choice IMO. The trouble is that if you ask your doctor about it, roughly one in a thousand might actually know enough about keeping snakes to give you an accurate response- there is a LOT of misinformation about snakes carrying salmonella (it's mostly aquatic turtles & various lizards- bearded dragons can carry quite a few things too) but snakes are just not a big offender in this area. Sadly, there is rampant hatred of snakes so it's way more likely that your doctors will be repeating false & negative information about their health risk to you- so be prepared, not shocked, okay?

Sure, snakes can carry some pathogens, but since they're cold-blooded, they tend to have very different issues than us warm-blooded types get. There's also ways to mitigate the risks- use a decent (but snake-safe) disinfectant to clean the enclosure (glass is recommended- it's easier to sanitize, as is PVC), wash your hands, wear a mask when cleaning the enclosure (to avoid breathing air- born particles), etc. And don't handle your snake in the kitchen or when eating.
Also get acquainted with your nearest reptile-qualified vet: https://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

I've kept a house-full of snakes for almost 40 years now with no adverse health issues for myself, & they've always been throughout my house- in my bedrooms, den, living room & even my large dining room- not locked away in a "snake room". I vividly remember many years ago when a doctor hurriedly MIS-diagnosed me with a serious autoimmune condition based on aberrant lab work only, instead of considering all the factors needed for that diagnosis, & which happily proved to be quite false, but I didn't know that for quite some time. :( When my stress was reduced, voila! No more "condition"-my bloodwork was normal- I was lucky. Anyway, I want to point out that the comfort & "distraction from negativity" that a cherished pet can bring you can be a very POSITIVE factor in your health also, as I hope it will be for you. That doesn't mean you should take unnecessary chances, of course, & your questions about maintaining a ball python are the right way to proceed.

I'm more about convenience too, when it comes to substrates & keeping snakes. I honestly don't like newspaper though, as it offers no traction for snakes, & also because their feces will sit there waiting to be slid thru- it's not that absorbent. I prefer to line my tanks with white paper towels (better absorption), folding up the edges so there's no "spill-over", then adding dry substrate over that. In my case, since I keep colubrids these days (had BPs in the past), I use a mixture of Carefresh* & paper shreds (from my own shredder- bills & such). That adds plenty of 'cush' for the snake to even burrow in, & makes spot-cleaning easier. *You would NOT want to use Carefresh for a BP though, or any snake that needs higher humidity, as that product is actually hygroscopic & will work against you. But if you check around, there's various shredded paper substrates you can buy- Chewy carries quite a few, for example. And U-line, as dakski mentioned, has some options too, if you want to use a "cage liner". (When using 'dry' substrates for a BP- you should also make them a large "humid hide". Saturated & drained moss is excellent & can be rinsed & re-used unless contaminated with feces.)

Apart from the substrate, you can give a more natural appearance to a glass tank by installing scenic background (outside the tank, on the back & sides) which also offers privacy for the snake- shy snakes like BPs appreciate that. (Never mind- you did say PVC-) And you can use some natural branches or driftwood for low climbing (BPs are not big climbers but they enjoy some variety). The branches can be sprayed with your disinfectant, & dried before re-installing. (NEVER use bleach on branches or anything porous though- it will not rinse away & the fumes are deadly to snakes- not good for us either.) Best disinfectants would be the F-10, or chlorhexidine (diluted, which is what I use). You can ask your vet too- they might be will to sell you a small bottle of what they use- since some of these products only come in amounts that you'll have trouble using up with only one snake. I too use the Reptile Basics black hides- easy to clean, & many sizes available.

More questions? Keep 'em coming- we're here to help. :)

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Haha, I actually live with an OBGYN who hates basically all animals that aren’t dogs or cats and when I told her that I was absolutely buying a snake she said basically exactly what you’d expect about snakes and bacteria! I definitely will contact a herp vet in my area, both for my future pet and to get their expertise on this issue. Thanks as always for your thoughtful posts!

One more substrate idea that I happen to love using on a limited basis, one that works great! (snakes LOVE the traction & it looks nice) & that will save you a lot of money: indoor-outdoor carpet!

The stuff they often sell from 12' rolls in big box stores (Lowes, Home Depot) by the foot. It's practically indestructible (you can wash it out, even disinfect it) & it never wears out. It's also not a fire hazard the way paper products can be if you're using UTH that's poorly regulated. There's virtually no backing on this type of nylon-fiber carpet (sometimes a sprayed on coating on the back, but not the woven stuff like indoor carpet has), & you can EASILY cut it to fit with scissors. I cut at least 2 carpets for each tank & snake that I use it for, so that when one gets dirty, I have a ready replacement. It's easy to wash out in your laundry sink or tub (I use dish-soap), & let it drip dry, which it does quickly. For a snake that likes humidity, like a BP, you can reinstall it slightly damp too. And unlike paper products, you can mist it without it wilting into mush.

Just something to consider. The downside, of course, is that you have to hand wash it (have your husband do it). If you go this route, plan the dimensions you need in advance. I like to cut the carpet about 4-5" bigger in width & length than the tank floor, then cut a square out of each corner, so that when you lay it in the tank, the sides easily fold up to "contain" the snake's output. It's easy to spot clean, & when it's dirty, I knock off the stuff into my garden, then wash it. ;) This is also much better than the fake-grass stuff they offer in pet stores- that stuff traps a lot but also sheds- yuck!

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Originally Posted by ROSIEonFIRE

I’m thinking about tank decor and I would like to strike a balance between aesthetics and ease of cleaning.

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Unfortunately, snakes hate smooth edges. They are easy for us to clean, but hard for them to grip with their belly scales. So, some compromise is necessary. Rather than newsprint, consider repticarpet. It's rougher than newsprint and it's easy to wash. Use two pieces and swap them during cleaning. This allows the soiled piece to air dry between uses which I feel helps with disinfecting. Sun drying would probably be even better. Your BP will also need something rough to aid in shedding. I use a paving stone. It's rough but easy enough to clean with a brush. Placed under the heating element, it will also provide belly heat for basking. Keeping the enclosure clean is very important just don't go overboard with it. Provide some rough surfaces so you bp can properly shed and navigate its enclosure.

I personally use textured kraft paper in enclosures that I don't want to use substrate:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

More 'grip' for the snake than newspaper, and doesn't mold like white paper towels can (I've used both of those).

I disagree with the practice of tossing the solids outside, since there may be non-native pathogens carried by our non-native reptiles (as in Burmese pythons in FL). Best to double bag and put into the regular trash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

The trouble is that if you ask your doctor about it, roughly one in a thousand might actually know enough about keeping snakes to give you an accurate response- there is a LOT of misinformation about snakes carrying salmonella (it's mostly aquatic turtles & various lizards- bearded dragons can carry quite a few things too) but snakes are just not a big offender in this area. Sadly, there is rampant hatred of snakes so it's way more likely that your doctors will be repeating false & negative information about their health risk to you- so be prepared, not shocked, okay?

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Unfortunately, this isn't exactly true. Chances are, any given captive snake is more likely to carry Salmonella than not, and a captive snake is more likely to carry Salmonella than any other type of captive reptile. While the overall number of cases of reptile-associated salmonellosis are higher from turtles than snakes (35% vs 20%), snakes are considerably more likely to carry salmonella (56%) than lizards (37%) or turtles (19%). The discrepancy between rates of infection and rates of zoonotic transmission are thought to be due to demographics, rates of ownership, and differences in housing and maintenance.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals...3.1251036/full

A very interesting couple passages in that paper are at 4.3.5, where it is suggested that naturalistic husbandry might reduce the risk of the shedding of Salmonella. I have not looked at the citations in that section, though.

Physicians don't as a rule know much at all about snakes, but they tend to know a mind-blowing amount about human health. I'm married to one, and sometimes I get to hang out with a room full of them; in both situations, I try to keep the conversation off anything close to health or medicine so I don't make myself look like the most ignorant part of the world's dullest donkey. :)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

I personally use textured kraft paper in enclosures that I don't want to use substrate:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

More 'grip' for the snake than newspaper, and doesn't mold like white paper towels can (I've used both of those).

I disagree with the practice of tossing the solids outside, since there may be non-native pathogens carried by our non-native reptiles (as in Burmese pythons in FL). Best to double bag and put into the regular trash.



Unfortunately, this isn't exactly true. Chances are, any given captive snake is more likely to carry Salmonella than not, and a captive snake is more likely to carry Salmonella than any other type of captive reptile. While the overall number of cases of reptile-associated salmonellosis are higher from turtles than snakes (35% vs 20%), snakes are considerably more likely to carry salmonella (56%) than lizards (37%) or turtles (19%). The discrepancy between rates of infection and rates of zoonotic transmission are thought to be due to demographics, rates of ownership, and differences in housing and maintenance.

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals...3.1251036/full

A very interesting couple passages in that paper are at 4.3.5, where it is suggested that naturalistic husbandry might reduce the risk of the shedding of Salmonella. I have not looked at the citations in that section, though.

Physicians don't as a rule know much at all about snakes, but they tend to know a mind-blowing amount about human health. I'm married to one, and sometimes I get to hang out with a room full of them; in both situations, I try to keep the conversation off anything close to health or medicine so I don't make myself look like the most ignorant part of the world's dullest donkey. :)

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I'm always glad to get your take on things, MA. I've never had any mold on paper towels, but my tanks are kept with lower humidity too, so maybe that's why. I've used product you mentioned from U-line in the past- everything has pro's & con's, & it comes down to what each of us prefers, what works well for us (& especially for our snakes), & what fits our budget, etc.

I guess you're much more current than I am about the rate of salmonellosis in snakes- that's changed over the years, & quite frankly, if I haven't ever gotten sick by now, I'm not one bit worried that I will at any time in the future. Considering how many snakes I've kept over the years & how full my house was for many years, if the risk was substantial, I shoulda been a 'goner' by now? :D
I also tend to be rather "chummy" in handling snakes, & I've had snakes from all over the world too- though most were native to the U.S. & most c/b but also plenty of w/c locals at various times.

That's a good point I hadn't considered about tossing a little snake waste into my shrubs (& that was ONLY in reference to when I've used the carpet- not my routine otherwise), but currently all I have are long-term healthy natives anyway- very low risk. If I had a sick one, that would have been different for sure. But I have to agree with you, point well taken, thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I guess you're much more current than I am about the rate of salmonellosis in snakes- that's changed over the years, & quite frankly, if I haven't ever gotten sick by now, I'm not one bit worried that I will at any time in the future. Considering how many snakes I've kept over the years & how full my house was for many years, if the risk was substantial, I shoulda been a 'goner' by now? :D

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Many cases of salmonella in immunocompetent adults are minor, and we might just write it off as 'stomach flu' or 'grocery store sushi, that was a mistake' or something less.

I didn't mean to imply that the general risk was substantial (since I don't think it is, and I don't think the data says it is). I was correcting the 'snake v turtles' claim, mostly.

But as to the knowledge level of physicians, there seems to be a lot known about the risk of infection as related to specific immunosuppressive therapies -- for example " A higher incidence of salmonellosis is seen also in patients with antibody deficiencies, defects in cell-mediated immunity and deficiencies in Th1 cytokines (IL-12, IFNγ) or cytokine receptors (IL-12R β1 subunit, IFNγR chains 1 and 2). " A physician prescribing immunosuppressive drugs might have reason to try to avoid one of the cytokine inhibitors if there's even a slightly elevated baseline exposure to Salmonella (or not; they could do the math on that).

It might depend in part on the condition being treated, such as the combined effects of disease and treatment in lupus. I'm sure there are many more specific considerations, and physicians tend to know a lot of this sort of stuff right off the top of their head (a visit to my rheumatologist is always a lesson in how much detail he knows).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

Many cases of salmonella in immunocompetent adults are minor, and we might just write it off as 'stomach flu' or 'grocery store sushi, that was a mistake' or something less.

I didn't mean to imply that the general risk was substantial (since I don't think it is, and I don't think the data says it is). I was correcting the 'snake v turtles' claim, mostly.

But as to the knowledge level of physicians, there seems to be a lot known about the risk of infection as related to specific immunosuppressive therapies -- for example " A higher incidence of salmonellosis is seen also in patients with antibody deficiencies, defects in cell-mediated immunity and deficiencies in Th1 cytokines (IL-12, IFNγ) or cytokine receptors (IL-12R β1 subunit, IFNγR chains 1 and 2). " A physician prescribing immunosuppressive drugs might have reason to try to avoid one of the cytokine inhibitors if there's even a slightly elevated baseline exposure to Salmonella (or not; they could do the math on that).

It might depend in part on the condition being treated, such as the combined effects of disease and treatment in lupus. I'm sure there are many more specific considerations, and physicians tend to know a lot of this sort of stuff right off the top of their head (a visit to my rheumatologist is always a lesson in how much detail he knows).

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I'd love to hear your view on the op's last question. If I wash my water bowls and hides in my dishwasher, am I increasing my risk for salmonella. What if I wash my repticarpet in the washing machine?

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I'd love to hear your view on the op's last question. If I wash my water bowls and hides in my dishwasher, am I increasing my risk for salmonella. What if I wash my repticarpet in the washing machine?

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Well, these are risks we take when washing dishes that contacted raw meat, or clothing that includes undergarments or especially linens that were dirtied by someone with a GI issue. We raised a child on exclusively cloth diapers and I never worried about it (maybe I should have?). Right now I'm running a load that has the clothes I wore this morning while processing a sheep for the freezer (and another set that I wore yesterday while hanging it up) -- kind of gross. Running a bleach cycle after a nasty clothing load isn't a bad idea whether a person has reptiles or not.

I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the chart here, but I couldn't find anything better:

https://ourdailybrine.com/wp-content...tion-table.pdf

Our dishwasher has a "sanitize" cycle that claims to run at 70c/158F, which the chart says kills Salmonella in 11 seconds.

I wash all my reptile equipment in a utility tub in my reptile room, and clean/disinfect stuff like plastic plants and cork bark in a bucket with bleach water. I use either a bleach water dip (10 minutes) or alcohol spray (10 second contact time required for Salmonella, per CDC) to disinfect dishes and hides after hand washing.

If I were immunocompromised, I suppose I might have different practices.

I will add to the immune compromised part of this thread.

After my kidney transplant I met Brian Barczyk at a reptile forum. I explained that I probably should not keep snakes because of being immune compromised but any advice he could give would be appreciated. He spoke of a friend of his who bred carpet pythons in Australia and who had a transplant as well. He said he kept about 300 snakes and never had health issues because of them. He cleaned, bred, and had many bites, etc.

I did a lot of research after that and ended up getting Figment (my Hypo Lavender Corn Snake) and Frank (my Northern Blue Tongue Skink) from Brian and BHB. I now have 9 reptiles that I keep (2 lizards and 7 snakes) and have had as many as 13 at one time. As far as I know, I have not gotten sick from them. People, yes. Food, yes. Reptiles, NO!

I do not ask for trouble though.

-I keep my cages clean and use paper substrate as discussed.

-I use disinfectant on all my cages and decor and properly.

-I feed F/T. More likely to get sick from a live rodent (in a variety of ways) than from a reptile (especially one I know is healthy).

-I do not touch waste (on purpose - accidents happen - but I am very careful) and never touch my face or mouth until I have washed my hands thoroughly and repeatedly including with antibacterial soap. I also keep my nails trimmed and wash under them. Some people wear gloves. I generally do not, for what's worth. Maybe I should?

-I keep my animals as healthy as I can.

-Did I mention I keep my cages clean?

Many people are against antibacterial soap as it builds resistance. I agree, in general, but is probably wise for immune compromised people to use in certain instances. This is one.


My doctors were against me keeping reptiles. I explained the research and precautions and told them what they could do with their unsubstantiated fears. After years of not getting sick from the reptiles, and having many of the same doctors, they have changed their tune (with me).

I understand they want to keep me safe and "better safe than sorry." However, why have a kidney transplant and not be able to do things that bring me joy? My reptiles are included in that. I also understand that not everyone is a careful as I am. I know people who lost transplanted organs, or died, because they did not follow doctor's orders on meds, appointments, etc. Most doctors are speaking to you as they would to anyone, not necessarily giving you personal advice. Remember, they want you alive and they do not want liability. Sadly, that is the name of the game in medicine, as in many other professions these days. We have a litigious society.



Finally, it was mentioned that paper substrate is not ideal for locomotion/movement for snakes. For what's worth, paper substrate is okay as long as it has some texture (printers newspaper has a little) and/or there are objects (like hides, water bowls, etc.) for the snake to use as "footing"/traction. My snakes have adapted well and use the walls, the hides, the bowl, etc., but also seem to do okay regardless of using something to push off of.

Even if they would do better on substrate in terms of that, I believe the detriment to my health and potentially theirs, is not worth the risk.

If you do not keep up on cleaning substrate, including major cleans regularly, it can be a hazard not a help. It can also be an issue if humidity gets too high. That's for people who are not immune compromised. Add in immune issues and it doesn't seem worth it.

Wow, I am so grateful for these informative, thoughtful, and amazingly well-researched suggestions. This thread has taken a turn that I really didn’t expect but am so thankful for as I’m contemplating potential futures. Whenever I decide to get a new pet I always take a long time to research and set up habitat prior to purchasing and at this stage I’m quite far from purchasing since I haven’t begun to set up the tat. And of course my decision to buy a snake is going to depend a lot on what shakes out with my medical situation which is extremely up in the air right now. Although I had assumed a bioactive setup would be less sanitary, it is interesting to hear that there’s speculation that it might reduce shedding of salmonella. Thank you for sharing that paper [mention]Malum Argenteum [/mention]I’ll definitely take a look at it! I wonder what other husbandry practices could be used to reduce the risk of zoonotic transmission, outside of high quality cleaning and hygiene practices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ROSIEonFIRE

Although I had assumed a bioactive setup would be less sanitary, it is interesting to hear that there’s speculation that it might provide some benefits

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If you're referring to the comment that I made, that was about 'naturalistic' enclosures, not so-called "bioactive" ones, and wasn't about the setup itself but rather the snakes' rate/risk of shedding pathogens.

The specific passage from the paper is "The differences noted in detection rates between wild reptiles and reptiles in captivity could—as mentioned above—also be due to differences in conditions, with dietary, stress and crowding-related factors likely causing the higher detection rates found in reptiles in captivity. Given the high dependency of ectothermic organisms on their environment, and natural living situations probably reflecting more physiological conditions than those in captivity, this could contribute to a stronger immune system and reduced stress."

Taking a look at the citations, all of them are about either or both (a) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between wild and captive reptiles, and (b) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between baseline and artificially stressed animals.

It looks like I may have extrapolated a bit between 'natural living situations' and 'naturalistic husbandry', since I saw the comments about stress and automatically made the connection. I'd still stand behind my interpretation, but would note that there's a little bit of explaining needed to establish that reptiles kept in naturalistic enclosures have lower levels of stress (I think that case could be made, and there are some studies that support the case). I do not think that most reptiles kept in "bioactive" enclosures would be expected to have lower stress levels than those kept in naturalistic enclosures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

I will add to the immune compromised part of this thread.

After my kidney transplant I met Brian Barczyk at a reptile forum. I explained that I probably should not keep snakes because of being immune compromised but any advice he could give would be appreciated. He spoke of a friend of his who bred carpet pythons in Australia and who had a transplant as well. He said he kept about 300 snakes and never had health issues because of them. He cleaned, bred, and had many bites, etc.

I did a lot of research after that and ended up getting Figment (my Hypo Lavender Corn Snake) and Frank (my Northern Blue Tongue Skink) from Brian and BHB. I now have 9 reptiles that I keep (2 lizards and 7 snakes) and have had as many as 13 at one time. As far as I know, I have not gotten sick from them. People, yes. Food, yes. Reptiles, NO!

I do not ask for trouble though.

-I keep my cages clean and use paper substrate as discussed.

-I use disinfectant on all my cages and decor and properly.

-I feed F/T. More likely to get sick from a live rodent (in a variety of ways) than from a reptile (especially one I know is healthy).

-I do not touch waste (on purpose - accidents happen - but I am very careful) and never touch my face or mouth until I have washed my hands thoroughly and repeatedly including with antibacterial soap. I also keep my nails trimmed and wash under them. Some people wear gloves. I generally do not, for what's worth. Maybe I should?

-I keep my animals as healthy as I can.

-Did I mention I keep my cages clean?

Many people are against antibacterial soap as it builds resistance. I agree, in general, but is probably wise for immune compromised people to use in certain instances. This is one.


My doctors were against me keeping reptiles. I explained the research and precautions and told them what they could do with their unsubstantiated fears. After years of not getting sick from the reptiles, and having many of the same doctors, they have changed their tune (with me).

I understand they want to keep me safe and "better safe than sorry." However, why have a kidney transplant and not be able to do things that bring me joy? My reptiles are included in that. I also understand that not everyone is a careful as I am. I know people who lost transplanted organs, or died, because they did not follow doctor's orders on meds, appointments, etc. Most doctors are speaking to you as they would to anyone, not necessarily giving you personal advice. Remember, they want you alive and they do not want liability. Sadly, that is the name of the game in medicine, as in many other professions these days. We have a litigious society.



Finally, it was mentioned that paper substrate is not ideal for locomotion/movement for snakes. For what's worth, paper substrate is okay as long as it has some texture (printers newspaper has a little) and/or there are objects (like hides, water bowls, etc.) for the snake to use as "footing"/traction. My snakes have adapted well and use the walls, the hides, the bowl, etc., but also seem to do okay regardless of using something to push off of.

Even if they would do better on substrate in terms of that, I believe the detriment to my health and potentially theirs, is not worth the risk.

If you do not keep up on cleaning substrate, including major cleans regularly, it can be a hazard not a help. It can also be an issue if humidity gets too high. That's for people who are not immune compromised. Add in immune issues and it doesn't seem worth it.

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That’s really cool that you got to meet BB! I definitely agree that when you’re confronted with chronic illness and its ramifications, it’s important to weight the QOL benefits and recognize that some risks might be worth taking. If you have any resources you can direct me towards regarding keeping snakes while immunosuppressed I would be really interested in seeing them. Thank you so much for sharing your experience in this area.

Also I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a niche in this market for an absorbent, disposable, optimally textured paper mat for snake tanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

If you're referring to the comment that I made, that was about 'naturalistic' enclosures, not so-called "bioactive" ones, and wasn't about the setup itself but rather the snakes' rate/risk of shedding pathogens.

The specific passage from the paper is "The differences noted in detection rates between wild reptiles and reptiles in captivity could—as mentioned above—also be due to differences in conditions, with dietary, stress and crowding-related factors likely causing the higher detection rates found in reptiles in captivity. Given the high dependency of ectothermic organisms on their environment, and natural living situations probably reflecting more physiological conditions than those in captivity, this could contribute to a stronger immune system and reduced stress."

Taking a look at the citations, all of them are about either or both (a) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between wild and captive reptiles, and (b) the differences in Salmonella detection rates between baseline and artificially stressed animals.

It looks like I may have extrapolated a bit between 'natural living situations' and 'naturalistic husbandry', since I saw the comments about stress and automatically made the connection. I'd still stand behind my interpretation, but would note that there's a little bit of explaining needed to establish that reptiles kept in naturalistic enclosures have lower levels of stress (I think that case could be made, and there are some studies that support the case). I do not think that most reptiles kept in "bioactive" enclosures would be expected to have lower stress levels than those kept in naturalistic enclosures.

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Yes thank you for that important clarification! So naturalistic here would refer to enclosures with lots of hides and things to climb on in assuming? I have to be honest I truly know nothing of snake veterinary issues. I wonder if it’s possible/feasible to get animals tested to determine whether they are carriers of salmonella and other zoonotic diseases and if they are if it’s possible to remediate medically. This would certainly help immunocompromised people reduce their risk of contracting something from their pets!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ROSIEonFIRE

That’s really cool that you got to meet BB! I definitely agree that when you’re confronted with chronic illness and its ramifications, it’s important to weight the QOL benefits and recognize that some risks might be worth taking. If you have any resources you can direct me towards regarding keeping snakes while immunosuppressed I would be really interested in seeing them. Thank you so much for sharing your experience in this area.

Also I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a niche in this market for an absorbent, disposable, optimally textured paper mat for snake tanks!

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1. I cannot speak for others and I understand his YouTube Channel was controversial, but my experience with Brian was amazing. Such a passionate and knowledgeable guy. He spent 20 minutes on the phone with me on 2 occasions for me to buy a $75 corn snake. That was after spending time talking to me at a reptile expo. I also had many calls with other staff, including his wife, when buying Frank. Very good people who love(d) reptiles and wanted others to as well and have great experiences with them as well.

2. QOL is huge. Having said that, so is a commitment to a living creature like a snake. Kudos to you for taking the time and being thoughtful and learning as much as you can.

3. Gosh, it was years ago (12 years since transplant). I am not sure what I have for you in terms of research at this point.

4. Happy to share and (try to) help.

5. "Also I’m starting to wonder if there isn’t a niche in this market for an absorbent, disposable, optimally textured paper mat for snake tanks!"

You are sitting on a gold mine!

6. In all seriousness, I wish you the best in life and health. Please know whatever you are dealing with, you are not alone. I think I speak for others on BP.net in saying, we are all thinking of you.

7. Again, I am very impressed and relieved to see the amount of thought and effort you are putting into this.

For what's worth, I think you would make a great snarent!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dakski

Finally, it was mentioned that paper substrate is not ideal for locomotion/movement for snakes. For what's worth, paper substrate is okay as long as it has some texture (printers newspaper has a little) and/or there are objects (like hides, water bowls, etc.) for the snake to use as "footing"/traction. My snakes have adapted well and use the walls, the hides, the bowl, etc., but also seem to do okay regardless of using something to push off of.

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I'm glad you mentioned this. When I first got my BP, I kept him on newspaper in a sterilite tub, but, with the water bowl and hides there was plenty of décor for him to push and pull for locomotion. I still use newspaper in half my current enclosure for my Children's python. That half of the enclosure is filled with all manner of junk. That brings me to another décor option we haven't discussed, disposable décor.

If you don't care about appearances, packaging materials make great décor. Cardboard packages and shipping envelopes make great hides. Cardboard tubes serve as enrichment items. My daughter's laptop came nestled in foam. Now, my Children's python is nestled in foam.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/93MmeeU.jpg
My frozen grocery items come wrapped in insulated paper. It's textured and helps to trap heat from my UTH. It would make a good substrate.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/UayfEWx.jpg
Just be careful. This stuff wasn't manufactured and tested as snake décor, so it's on you to make sure it's safe for your snake.

The obvious upside of disposable decor is that you don't have to clean it. When it gets dirty or old, just toss it. There's always more to replace it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ROSIEonFIRE

Yes thank you for that important clarification! So naturalistic here would refer to enclosures with lots of hides and things to climb on in assuming? I have to be honest I truly know nothing of snake veterinary issues. I wonder if it’s possible/feasible to get animals tested to determine whether they are carriers of salmonella and other zoonotic diseases and if they are if it’s possible to remediate medically. This would certainly help immunocompromised people reduce their risk of contracting something from their pets!

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The authors of the paper I was referring to used 'natural living situations' to refer to living in the wild.

When I use the word 'naturalistic', I mean an enclosure that uses natural materials in its furnishings: basically, made of substances that aren't created in a lab/factory -- and this 'made of' is a matter of degrees -- so, on a rough continuum of less to more naturalistic:

-- plastic < cardboard < wood (hides/hardscape)

-- plastic < live (plants)

-- carpet < paper < natural particle < whatever substrate they're physically adapted to* (substrate)

I think the case could be made that an additional aspect of 'naturalistic' enclosures is that they allow for a wide range of habitat choice -- so, an enclosure that has all "natural" furnishings is less naturalistic than the same enclosure that's ten times as large and has usable gradients of height/substrate moisture/RH/temperature/illumination levels and combinations of those gradients.

*note that a species isn't 'adapted' to something simply because that thing exists in its natural habitat, but rather is adapted to something if and insofar as the species has physical or behavioral traits that enable the species to use the thing to its benefit. Further, behavioral adaptations often don't translate well to captive environments (since a captive animal's behavior is restricted by available space and enclosure design). There's a lot of misuse of the idea of "replicating nature" in animal habitats, and much of it comes down to the failure to understand adaptation.

"Bioactive" is 'naturalistic' plus provisions for waste processing and endogenous food sources. The "bioactive" concept has basically ditched the latter aspect (since it is impossible for most herp species even to a small degree, and literally impossible to provide a full diet for virtually any captive herps), and the former aspect typically isn't well designed in enclosures for most herp species (as can be seen by the need to remove solid waste manually, and the omission of provisions for sufficient nutrient export and pathogen removal over the lifespan of the captive).

Salmonella can be tested for through PCR like many other herp pathogens, but it is considered a part of natural gut flora and so attempting to get rid of it would be very unlikely to be in the best interests of the snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I'm glad you mentioned this. When I first got my BP, I kept him on newspaper in a sterilite tub, but, with the water bowl and hides there was plenty of décor for him to push and pull for locomotion. I still use newspaper in half my current enclosure for my Children's python. That half of the enclosure is filled with all manner of junk. That brings me to another décor option we haven't discussed, disposable décor.

If you don't care about appearances, packaging materials make great décor. Cardboard packages and shipping envelopes make great hides. Cardboard tubes serve as enrichment items. My daughter's laptop came nestled in foam. Now, my Children's python is nestled in foam.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/93MmeeU.jpg
My frozen grocery items come wrapped in insulated paper. It's textured and helps to trap heat from my UTH. It would make a good substrate.
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/UayfEWx.jpg
Just be careful. This stuff wasn't manufactured and tested as snake décor, so it's on you to make sure it's safe for your snake.

The obvious upside of disposable decor is that you don't have to clean it. When it gets dirty or old, just toss it. There's always more to replace it.

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lol the bit about the foam [emoji23]using packaging is a great idea, thanks for the suggestion!

And just so you know, I often make use of clean corrugated cardboard boxes, modified for my snakes. I get a lot of things shipped to me so they're easy to come by, & my rat snakes seem to enjoy (or at least don't "mind") some change-ups. That may not be the case with a ball python, especially one that is new & not yet settled in, because of how much their wild behavior differs. BPs are ambush-predators, for the most part, where rat snakes are more active.

My rat snakes also don't require the higher heat that BPs do- always put safety first, as Homebody mentioned, any time you use things in ways they were never intended for- (ie. Cardboard & paper shreds are quite flammable, & can dry out over time, so carefully consider how they may come in contact with heat sources.)

But one of the things I do -especially in winter- is to use much larger boxes than their usual hides, cut to fit over more of the floor & with a "ceiling height" of 4-6". I use that over the UTH area, creating a larger warm "cave", & another on the cool side. The bonus of doing this is that it also creates essentially a "second floor", because of the large flat tops. I still use branches too- & fit them to hold the boxes in place -otherwise cardboard is easily pushed around by our snakes, & they don't always "get" the floorplan we had in mind. ;)

I'm all in favor of creative snake-keeping, as long as it's safe & meets the needs of our snakes. The many snakes I've kept have enjoyed great health* & longevity. I like to imitate what they'd use in nature, but it has to be practical too, & I prefer that it looks semi-natural. *If you over-complicate a snake's home, especially with features that are permanent (like those background ledges that some like to install & which admittedly look great) you won't be able to clean it adequately, & that's when snakes can get sick. So that's what goes thru my mind in considering "furnishings"- either it must be cleanable, or disposable. Stick with practical. ;)

As I once saw someone say in another forum for different reptiles I also have, a good tank would be one that you would put down in their natural habitat for them to live in for potentially 30 years. I think that makes sense.