(TW: written gore) Difficult BP + Horrifying Nightmares: What next?

I have a ball python named Smake. He's my first bp, now 3 years old, coming up on 4 at the end of this month. He's been an incredibly difficult first bp. He has gone on long-lasting eating strikes several times, each one harder to break than the last. Now pushing 6 months, he still refuses to eat. I force feed him pinky rats, as that's the easiest for me to manage on a regular basis, roughly once weekly. He's at an okay weight, and has been to the vet a few times now to make sure he's okay. His conditions are close to perfect, and his vet thinks so too. He just doesn't want to eat.

A few nights ago, I had a traumatic nightmare. In the dream, I wanted to "store" Smake for some unknown reason. I started shoving him inside my mouth and down my throat. I bit clean through him, gained partial lucidity, and realized he couldn't recover from being bitten in half. So I chomped him down faster, thinking he could recombine himself if I was fast enough. Then I gained full lucidity, and was horrified to realize I had killed my snake by eating him. I snapped awake, teary, and found my boyfriend to help me calm down. A night or so later I also dreamt that I was carrying him around with me everywhere, loose, and I kept losing my grip on him because he kept wiggling away, so I'd clench down on him. I have never and would never handle my or any snake that roughly in real life.

After these dreams, thinking of Smake makes my stomach churn. I don't even feel comfortable handling or holding him. I now dread taking him out, and I've been putting off force feeding him this week because of how sick I feel about him. I really don't know what I should do. I don't know what I'm doing wrong and why he won't eat for me. I don't want to give up on him, and I'm terrified of hurting or killing him. I wish I could do more.

Please lend me your thoughts and advice. I truly need it right now.

Obviously the stress & frustration you're feeling with Smake's refusal to feed are showing up as your nightmares. I have to say that's the wrong way to show your snake how to eat...;)

But seriously, those are horrible dreams you've had. You can't help what you're feeling & if this doesn't change, it honestly might be best to rehome him to a very experienced snake-keeper.

I feel for you, as I know that some BPs can be very difficult snakes- but it's not good for a snake to continuously be force-fed. Pinkies are not adequate nutrition either- not even for a hatchling, & you say he's 3+ years old now. Ultimately the decision has to be yours. As for what, if anything, you're doing wrong...maybe nothing? But have you double checked the temperatures in his home? A snake that's not warm enough will certainly refuse to eat. Likewise a snake that's handled excessively, or one that's stressed by lack of privacy & feels threatened may refuse to eat.

If you could post pics of your set-up, & give many more details, maybe we can spot something?

I can understand you feeling shaken up by those awful nightmares, but maybe the cure is to confront & fix the problem with your snake. It's your call though, as I said. You say you don't want to give up on him, but yet you "dread taking him out"- those 2 things are not compatible.

I had some trouble with my first male with long food strikes. It's definitely frustrating when it's the first experience.

More info on the setup and maybe a photo of Smake as well? Knowing the current body conditions can maybe help.

I'm so sorry you're having stress related dreams, especially ones that bad. I would consider asking your vet if they know of a rehabilitator or rescue group that may be able to offer a hand as well. That way in case you become further stressed you'll know of someone to call for help. I wouldn't necessarily explain the details of the dreams to them, just that you're having nightmares about his health and hoping that they can help you. You may be able to find someone to get him started on eating again. Or if your boyfriend is willing to help takeover for a bit and give you a bit of a break.

It's difficult. I'm hoping we can help you out! It's terrible when you need to help yourself and your pet. I've been there. But while you need to do whatever is best for Smake, you also need to do good by you as well.

I'm sorry for the delay in response. Today, I did a full reset of Smake's tank. New substrate, new layout, and everything cleaned with chlorhexidine solution, except for the wood, which I baked in the oven to dehydrate/disinfect. I also handled him quite a bit, and exposure therapy seems to have helped a good bit. I still feel like there's a lump in my throat, but I'm determined to get over this. Being so close to giving up made me realize how much I don't want to. I want to have more beeps in the future, and if I give up now when I'm being challenged, I could never ethically consider getting another.

His temps are still stabilizing now, so I will provide readings tomorrow, but normally the cooler side is 75-80° and the hotter side is 85-90°.

His humidity levels vary, as I live in a very dry environment. He has a humidifier to try and combat this, but it's hard for me to regulate how much fog it puts out. I've programmed a timer block to turn the fogger on for 10 minutes/off for 40 minutes, which gives his humidity levels enough time to get low enough that he could benefit from another misting. I've been watching his nose and mouth closely, and he seems healthy. Last shed came off beautifully too.

Here's a breakdown of everything on and around his tank.
The tank itself is from dubiaroaches.com ("Reptile Habitats 4x2x2/120gal").

Decor/Supplies:
3x ceramic heat emitter
3x heat dome
3x thermostat controller w/ probe
2x thermometer/hygrometer probe
3x cave hide
several foraged sticks (disinfected in chlorhexidine solution and baked in an oven at 200°+) (mostly beech wood, one grape wood)
several soft plastic plants
1x water dish*
1x humidifier
1x timer block (for humidifier)
*He had a bigger bowl, but it started showing discoloration at the bottom of the dish that made me nervous, so I trashed it. So, for now, he's using a disinfected cat water bowl.


Substrate: coco husk, chunks (just enough for him to crawl under if he so desired)

Finally, here are some pics.
You can spot Smake in a few of them. I'm not really concerned about his weight right now, as his vet looked him over thoroughly and feels that he is doing okay. We have been watching his weight, and since we began force feeding him, he has put on a good few grams.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...297a0f6c68fe7&https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...6bebcf46e86f2&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...9d8adeb8c2e13&
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2a64307af6167&

I hope this information is helpful.
Additionally, I acquired some soiled rat bedding that I'm going to hopefully try to clean by turning our instapot into a makeshift autoclave. My boyfriend has vacuum seal food grade bags, and my research tells me that doing this shouldn't eliminate the odor. I just don't want to introduce any bacteria or disease to my snake. Once safe, I plan to scent the pinkies with the bedding and try to stimulate his senses so that he will eat on his own. Let me know if you find fault in this idea! Thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by smakemom

I have a ball python named Smake. He's my first bp, now 3 years old, coming up on 4 at the end of this month. He's been an incredibly difficult first bp. He has gone on long-lasting eating strikes several times, each one harder to break than the last. Now pushing 6 months, he still refuses to eat. I force feed him pinky rats, as that's the easiest for me to manage on a regular basis, roughly once weekly. He's at an okay weight, and has been to the vet a few times now to make sure he's okay. His conditions are close to perfect, and his vet thinks so too. He just doesn't want to eat.

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Why are you force feeding? Because he won't eat? He's an adult. They do that. If he's not losing weight, and I mean a lot of weight, I don't see the justification for force feeding. Force feeding is traumatizing to the snake. It should be only be done in a case of dire need. I think continuing to force feed, on a weekly basis no less, will only make your BP less likely to feed on his own.

I think you should leave him alone. No force feeding. No handling even. Offer food at most once a week. He'll feed eventually.

This is just my opinion based mostly on advice I've heard from more experienced keepers. I'm not a vet. So, if what I'm saying contradicts your vet, please ignore it. Your set up is admirable and shows that you are responsible keeper that really cares about her pet. I really hope he starts eating again soon.

I have to agree with Homebody's spot-on post above, & on top of that, DO NOT try to "clean" the soiled rat bedding you need to scent prey!!! Leave it alone, all of life has bacteria & our immune systems (just like that of a snake) has evolved to function WITH them- some bacteria is good for us, the rest is dealt with. Your snake isn't likely to catch any disease from a rat- or from us, for that matter, since snakes are cold-blooded, & rats, like us, are warm blooded & have very different pathogens hanging around with us. Trying to bake the bedding is likely to change or remove the odors your snake may need to trigger feeding. Life has bacteria everywhere- get over it. ;) There is such a thing as "too clean". (Just to be clear, I'm NOT saying you shouldn't wipe down his enclosure periodically or reasonably disinfect things in use, like the cat's water bowl. But I've just never heard of anyone trying to clean rodent litter...)

But with all the changes you just made in his home, I wouldn't rush to feed him or expect too much when you do. Snakes feel safest when they can depend on what's around them- that means let him get used to his home as it now is, & quit handling a snake that won't eat. Stop force feeding! Rat pinkies give little more than water for this snake anyway, but the stress you're causing is immeasurable. And I'd stop the fogging as well*- that's disruptive & might be making him doubt the season is right for feeding. Use OTHER ways to raise humidity: provide a humid hide with soaked & drained sphagnum moss, AND use a substrate that holds humidity. (*or use only a room humidifier if you want, just not in his home!) If you don't understand what a humid hide is, ask.

Feeding also depends on having the right kind of hides so they can sleep well and feel secure- it's hard to see hides in all that- but if you're counting that wide-open tree bark tunnel as a "hide"- it's NOT. Use at least 2 of these (one warm side & the other on the cool side) or something similar- BPs want a closer feel- lower ceiling, smaller door & only one way in to feel safe. They come in different sizes- read the descriptions carefully to get the size that closely matches the size of your snake when he's coiled up, not too much bigger. https://www.reptilebasics.com/large-hide-box

Afterthoughts: I know that technically there's lots of 'cover' in there- ie. fake plants- but keep in mind they don't provide actual "back pressure" that these snakes are thought to prefer- the feeling of being safe & snug- like in the hides I mentioned above. The plants look great but they're soft & flexible. Also keep in mind that it's best to avoid making changes all the time- one big overhaul is a lot for a snake to take in- this is his whole world, after all, & snakes only feel safe once they know their way around. So if you're going to replace the hides as I suggested, or make other changes, wait until you've got everything together & do it all at once. Snakes need time to adjust, & you just revised his home. Think it through before you act.

I love how his home looks. You put a lot of work and care into it. But it may not be what he wants.
One of my pickiest feeders is dead set on living in a tub. She stresses out when she has too much space and can see outside glass. She needs the frosted walls and tight spaces to be comfortable enough to not strike at anything that moves.

Him not eating may be his only way of telling you he may have too much free space. Even as cluttered as you have it, something may be off.

If his hides are big and open, try stuffing some crumpled newspaper or moss in for a bit and see if that helps. Tight spaces definitely make them feel better.
Give him a couple weeks of hiding.
If he starts peeking his head out of the hide, that's the when you can try again with a meal.

Firstly, I didn't realize how disapproved of force feeding was. I know it's traumatizing, but I was under the impression that it was just something that had to happen when reptiles went off feed. I don't WANT to force feed him, so if so many people are saying not to, I'll abstain for now.

He has three solid and tight caves. He can perfectly fit inside them, pushed up against the walls. Sometimes he even pushes the substrate out from beneath him so he has more wiggle room. The half logs are just there for amusement.

I used to hang a curtain over his tank to block everything out, and that got him eating several months ago when he stopped eating before, but when I tried it again this time, it didn't work. I don't think he's particularly scared, though. Just the other night I saw him roaming around his tank. All his stuff is familiar, there's nothing new. It's just slightly moved around. But he might not know that, I realize.

I also understand that cleaning/handling = not going to eat. I don't attempt feedings within 2-3 days of these activities. Per someone's advice, I'll leave him alone for a week, only opening his tank up to change the water.

I'll remove the humidifier and instead place it just outside his tank. That should also open up some space for him.

I am familiar with humid hides. I'll use those when he needs to shed. Hopefully he's smart enough to utilize it.

Please let me know if I missed something. I am trying to be as receptive as possible. Thank you all very much.

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Originally Posted by smakemom

Firstly, I didn't realize how disapproved of force feeding was. I know it's traumatizing, but I was under the impression that it was just something that had to happen when reptiles went off feed. I don't WANT to force feed him, so if so many people are saying not to, I'll abstain for now.

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It's clear from what you've told us that you are a responsible and caring keeper. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. To help you break this fast, it will help us if we know how it started. You said he's just shy of 4 years old. Have you had him that whole time? You said he's gone on several fasts? How many? How long did they last? What was he eating at the time each fast started? How did you break those fasts? Just to the best of your recollection. The more we know, the better our advice will be. Thanks.

Those nightmares really sound like they suck, I'm so sorry you're having to deal with that. It's obvious that you love your smake very much (cute name by the way). There are a lot of reasons a ball python goes off of feeding and ways to help but force feeding as mentioned by others in their replies, should be an absolute last resort. The ambient temps and the warm side temps being off can cause issues and so can season changing and the usual ball python fasting. Too much handling can stress the snake out and cause the snake to not want to eat but sounds like you havent been handling him much obviously. When heating up your F/T rats my advice would be to use a temp gun and make sure the head of the rat is at 105 Fahrenheit, that means that the rat is completely warmed up. I move the rat I'm going to feed my BP from the freezer to the fridge section of our mini fridge overnight in order to thaw it out and then I put it in a sealed ziplock bag and the ziplock bag in a bucket of warm warm water (usually around 125 fahrenheit). I learned this trick from the guy we get rats from, he taught me this when we were having trouble with my snake not wanting to eat and now he barely ever refuses a meal unless he is going on another fast or if the seasons are changing making the ambient temps colder. I believe that you love your smake way too much to ever hurt him, but if it helps try pacing yourself, once he has started eating again to the point of you not needing to go without handling maybe pet him while he's inside the enclosure and move from petting him to fully picking him up and always sitting down when holding him if you worry about dropping him. Sometimes our dreams get the best of us and get us riled up, just fight that, you're strong and you care so much about Smake I know you can do this! Work back up your confidence in your ability to handle him and you will be back to yourself around him in no time.

Sorry for the late update, I just started working at a new job and life has been a little busier than usual.

I've been in a small fight with Smake's heat lamps as I'm pretty sure one of them is going out on me, but I'm not sure which one yet. I'm gonna have to wait until they all turn on again when it's not sunny outside. I have a new one to replace it with. He's not too cold, but not quite in that 85-90 window at nighttime where I prefer it. During the day it's fine, though. This also only started happening after I cleaned his tank, oddly enough. Might be because it's easier to maintain a temperature than rise up to it.

He went off feed when he was less than a year old, and started eating again when I let his breeder take him home for a short period of time. He was fed live, but he also contracted a bacterial infection. I had to treat him with an antibiotic from the vet. Granted, I no longer trust that veterinarian (I've been seeing a new one for a while now, this was years ago), but that's also why I did something as silly as autoclaving rat bedding. I've not used it yet, and I'm keeping it in a plastic deli container, but if it's not stinky by the time I use it I can just get more. My local pet store gave me it for free, which was nice, but I have no idea what the health of their rats is like.

Another time he went off feed I was able to fix it by covering his enclosure with a curtain. He seemed to only eat when he had total privacy. I tried doing that again, but it didn't work this time. He only has natural light, so it's not like he has a ton of exposure to brightness. There's a timed lamp that shuts off at 9pm, but it's across the room.

Are ball pythons sensitive to smell? Would nearby soiled cat litter offend him by any chance?

@BeansTheDerp: This is how I've been preparing the rats except for the temp gun part. I'll give that a try next time.

@Homebody: I took no offense at all! I type very stiffly and come off as serious but I promise I'm a fairly relaxed individual. Thank you for all your help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smakemom

...He's not too cold, but not quite in that 85-90 window at nighttime where I prefer it. During the day it's fine, though. This also only started happening after I cleaned his tank, oddly enough. Might be because it's easier to maintain a temperature than rise up to it....

Are ball pythons sensitive to smell? Would nearby soiled cat litter offend him by any chance? ....

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Yes, for sure, & Yes, most likely. Cats are predators & have a pretty strong odor, especially to a snake.

smell could totally totally be the problem! In our mini fridge my brother put his kittens wet food in the same spot where the rats are supposed to go, he did this multiple times and I would get mad at him because Beans REFUSED to eat the rats because they smelt like cat food!!! I usually keep the temps in that 85-90 window in the mornings, at night I let things cool down though he still has the undertank heating, but if that works for you then go ahead! Keep us updated :)

For one, I am incredibly dumb and one of my lights was literally unplugged. Temps are fine now, and now I have an extra bulb, which I should have had anyway in the event of an emergency or a blowout, so fair enough.

I'll work on moving the litter boxes somewhere else. Considering how far I've bent over backwards trying to appease this spoiled noodle I'm ready to get creative.

Thanks as always everyone.

of course! let us know if he finally eats for you.

He rejected food again. This time, I heated up the rat to about 60° (it felt hot to the touch) and gently tossed it in a jar full of autoclaved rat bedding (it still had a smell, but not as offensive as fresh bedding, so maybe it wasn't enough.)
I set the rat in his little feeding dish, and he never came out to my knowledge.
(To note: Smake has always taken his meals off the floor without any disturbance. He is afraid of tongs for an unknown reason and will recoil if he sees them, so I've never been able to get him to strike or take something from me personally.)

How should I use the bedding to scent the rat effectively? I can also get freshly soiled bedding since many of you recommended I not disinfect it. Next time I also plan to try and make sure he's aware of the rat when I put it in there, since last time I'm not sure if he ignored it or if he plainly missed it somehow.

Any and all advice is appreciated, as always. Thank you.

Depending on what you are using for a dish it could be so cold that it's cooling down the temps of the rat. I'm guessing by 60 degrees you mean degrees Celsius because 60 Fahrenheit is not enough. Also next time you could try to place the rat closer to the entrance of the hide he could be in, and I would put said rat in the enclosure at a time that he is active and he wouldn't be in a deep sleep and not noticing the rat there. How often are you offering him food? I wouldn't be trying to feed him every week as that may be too often, I would give him a bigger break, I've heard of people waiting a full month before feeding again in case the snake is on a strike but depending on how long your snake hasn't eaten I might not do that. Do you know if smake is loosing weight from not eating? Usually if it's a strike the snake won't lose much weight. I would keep an eye on smake's weight until he eats again so that you can monitor it! (:

He's been off feed for over half a year and did lose weight, which is why i started force feeding him, but he has gained some weight back thanks to the nutrient rich dog food my vet had me give him. getting him to eat it (via force feed) was very traumatizing for him so i didn't keep up with it. my temp gun said the pinkie rat was 60-something and it was uncomfortably hot to touch, so i don't know if the gun was wrong or what.. not sure.

next time i'm going to get his attention and see what that does.
also, sorry if my typing isn't as clean as usual. i put on false nails so typing is a nightmare. rip.

How much weight has he lost? something like 10 grams wouldn't be concerning, that's the amount a urate can remove after a snake passes one so it's really not that much. Something like 100+ grams is when it gets weird. Also if you've been making a lot of changes like adding something and then removing something because it's an issue, then it can still make the snake feel a bit off so that could be another issue. Remember that people have had their bp survive a year without food and while it varies with the snake, if your snake isn't showing any symptoms of starving to death I wouldn't worry too much yet. I would say continue to ask the vet questions and continue to get insight from other snake owners and your snake will eventually start eating again! I don't remember if you've said it before so I'll ask, has your snake gotten scans and tests to see if it's an internal issue? I remember you saying you have taken your snake to the vet but I'm curious as to what exactly has been done at the vet. Again, apologies if you've already covered this but I can't look back at the past conversations while writing this lol.

all good. He hasn't had any scans, but the vet has put a flashlight up to him and looked inside. Because he's an albino, it's pretty easy to see inside of him in the dark with a light. she didn't feel anything abnormal and didn't see anything abnormal when she did that. I don't know exactly how many grams he has fluctuated. All I know is that he gained some weight when he was weighed at his last appointment. I think I will start weighing him at home weekly, so I can keep track of any significant weight loss. I probably should have been doing that already.

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Originally Posted by smakemom

all good. He hasn't had any scans, but the vet has put a flashlight up to him and looked inside. Because he's an albino, it's pretty easy to see inside of him in the dark with a light. she didn't feel anything abnormal and didn't see anything abnormal when she did that. I don't know exactly how many grams he has fluctuated. All I know is that he gained some weight when he was weighed at his last appointment. I think I will start weighing him at home weekly, so I can keep track of any significant weight loss. I probably should have been doing that already.

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I'd agree with keeping a weight chart on him, but don't do that weekly- nothing changes that much in a week, & you'll only stress him too much, & if he's going to eat on his own for you, it's imperative that you minimize his handling & stress. I'd weigh him once a month, & do remember that retained wastes can make it appear to be a difference in the weight, as Beans already mentioned, so you might want to note when he eliminates also.

Okay, will do. Monthly it is. Thank you.

of course! <3

I only just caught up on your struggles with Smake, so feel free to ignore me as a latecomer to the conversation.

For the sake of transparency: I've kept snakes all my life and worked my way through undergrad and grad school as a vet tech in exotics and laboratory settings but I am NOT a veterinarian.

From reading your story so far - first I am so, so sorry you've gotten so stressed over this that you are having traumatic nightmares. Even after decades of keeping and a current crew of happy, healthy snakes I sometimes have a bad dream that reflects my fears and concerns for them, and I know how awful it feels to wake up after a dream like that.

Based on his behaviors, your snake has very clearly communicated a lot of things to you. The most important, I think, is that he is a shy snake who reacts strongly to change and to things he perceives as stress. This is not unusual for Ball pythons in general - they tend to be on the shy end of the temperament spectrum. But as with any animal there's a range, with some individuals being more bold and outgoing, and some being very shy and sensitive. I think your guy is in that very shy category, so that is likely a large part of his feeding refusal.

His body condition looks good in the photos, and he does eat now and then. So you need to try to stop worrying about his not eating. Just know this is going to sound crazy to you, but hear me out - leave him alone. Like totally leave him alone other than essential care, and think in terms of weeks and months for this. No handling. Spot cleaning the enclosure only when really needed. Try to spot clean or change water when he is tucked into his hide; you could even drape a little piece of cloth over the hide entrance when you are doing enclosure maintenance to block his view. If you really need to change the substrate, do it in half the enclosure at a time while he is in a hide. If needed, give him a hide with a top plus bottom so that when you are cleaning you can just lift him out while he is in his hide and put snake plus hide in a safe container till you're done. But you don't need to clean as often as you may think, at least not while you are trying to get him into regular eating patterns. Always make sure his water is fresh and clean; remove urates and feces and replace a handful or two of substrate right around where you removed urates and feces, but keep enclosure disruption and major substrate changes to an absolute minimum.

Offer him a nice warm meal about once every ten days, and since he has already shown you he doesn't like company when he eats, feed him after dark, in a dimly lit room, and leave the room once you have placed the rodent in his enclosure. I've never had impressive results by messing around with soiled rodent bedding, but that's up to you. Do whatever you need to do to reduce your anxiety over him and be prepared to go through weeks and months of this routine.

He ate at the breeder's. What sort of enclosure was he in at the breeders, and to what extent can you duplicate those conditions?

Stop force-feeding him. Like full on, dead stop, don't do it. Force feeding is for snakes in a life-and-death situation and it typically should never be done if a snake has EVER taken a meal normally, unless the snake develops a serious illness or injury that warrants force feeding.

Correct me if I am wrong here - but did I read correctly that your veterinarian recommended force feeding your snake dog food?

If this is the case, find another veterinarian. We can help you with that. If I misunderstood, my apologies!

It sounds like your heat and humidity may be inconsistent or a bit unstable. You are using ceramic heat emitters, yes? You might consider switching to deep heat projectors, which are set up the same way as a CHE but which are less prone to trash humidity levels. For now I would focus on leaving him alone as much as possible, ensuring that his temperature and humidity parameters are stable, and ensuring that his feels his enclosure is safe and secure.

Hang in there. He's gonna be fine. Really.

first of all, thank you very much for such a detailed response.

when he ate at the breeder's, it was about two years ago, and he was kept in a rack and fed a live rat. I don't know the details beyond that, unfortunately.

And yes, the vet did have me force feed him recovery dog food; she said it was densely packed with nutrition and would help him regain weight. i no longer do this, and i stopped a few weeks ago. this is also my third exotic veterinarian. if there is some list of names out there of reputable veterinarians by area, that would be great, but at this point, I don't know if it's even worth it. At the very least, I would like to know where to take him in the event of a life or death situation. Hopefully she would know what to do, but honestly, I don't know that she would. if it helps with recs, i'm smack dab between the cincinnati and columbus areas of ohio.

I have stopped force feeding him completely. I have not been handling him, with the sole exception being that I moved him out of his hide today so that I could check all of his hides for feces, and it looked clean, so I put him right back and closed the tank back up.

I actually made a mistake before when I listed his heating elements as ceramic heat emitters. that's what I used when I was a new keeper. He has three deep heat projectors. The temperatures have stabilized now, it was just unstable when I had just freshly changed everything (and forgot to plug a light back in, oops). It does get a little cooler at night, but not dramatically so. His tank is in front of a window, so the heaters work a lot less hard in the daytime, but do all they can at night.

fortunately, the nightmares have stopped, and I feel calmer about him, but this has definitely hurt my love for ball pythons specifically. I would like to get other snakes in the future, but I think this will be my first and last ball python. i don't want to go through this more than once- not to this degree, at least. That being said, I'm very grateful for everyone's help. I know not every ball python is like this, and maybe he won't be this way forever. Who knows.

I hope I covered everything in your message. Thank you very much for your advice, and I'll do my best to adhere to it.

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Originally Posted by smakemom

... if there is some list of names out there of reputable veterinarians by area, that would be great...

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Here's a link to the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians's vet finder: https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661.

I'm glad the nightmares have stopped though I am sorry about your love for ball pythons being hurt, I hope you feel better about that but if you don't that's alright if you don't want another bp. I assure you that not every bp is like this, though pretty much all of them go on feeding strikes at some point. Is your bp showing any feeding responses at all or does it seem like he has completely lost his appetite? Also once you find a good vet I would redo giving a stool sample and I would have a scan done if he hasn't eaten by then and any advice from the new vet hasn't worked. Don't give up! You've got this and you have got help and support from multiple sides!

ALSO, when you feed your snake, if you are feeding with tongs then are you holding it above your snake? That can scare them and sometimes even if it didn't before it can start to. My bp used to eat with tongs perfectly fine but now he only eats with tongs once in a while. Try holding the rat by the scruff with the tongs, don't be worried about holding it too tightly because depending on the weight of the rat it could be more difficult to hold it up. Basically try to mimic the motions of a rat while holding it's upper half up with the tongs a small distance away from your snake. Have you tried offering your snake a small live mouse pup to see if he takes it? Just to hold him over? Live feeding isn't very good but this is a suggestion for if it starts getting really bad, like almost life or death. Trying live should be the decision before the last minute decision to force feed in my opinion. I say mouse pup because there is less risk of a bad injury with a little tiny mouse than with a big mouse/rat.

Smake has demonstrated great fear when exposed to tongs. I don't use them at all with him. I place the rat on a little "rock" dish that is on the hot side so it's not too cold. I've always placed the rat on something flat for him to take at his own pace. Mimicking life has also scared him in the past. I tried feeding him a live mouse in years past but he didn't take it and instead hid from it. He has always had little to no response to food. He has never struck at food and never coiled around food, only slowly taken meals inch by inch down his throat until he's done. It is an extraordinarily slow process for him. He used to stick his head out of his cave or roam around the tank, but that's never been a reliable indicator for me if he was ready to eat or not. I say "used to" because, since moving here, we no longer sleep in the same room, so I don't catch glimpses of him at 2-4am anymore when I wake up at night. I may go downstairs before bed tonight to see if he's up and out, but he generally gets active in the wee hours of morning when us diurnal folk are most quiet.

Here are some photos of Smake from over the years.

2023: (not much here. I moved twice, so it's been a bit hectic.)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...71b38b27a2efc&
(he's being a very good hat)

2022:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...9a623bdc2657d&https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...64954930287be&

2020:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...6dbbb622efadf&https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...7122c992f0391&https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...17317fd8c744d&

Looking back, I forgot how much he used to climb on that old rod. When he eats regularly for me again, I'll have to install a new climbing rod.
The pic where he's around my hand was taken when he was a month-ish old, so he's very orange there. It's also my pfp.
As seen in the eating photo, he's known to take meals from halfway inside his caves, not even crawling all the way out. He also finishes swallowing in his caves if he can manage it. He sheds and poops inside his caves, too. Like an emo teen who refuses to leave his room. I hope that's because he just prefers it that way and not because he's stressed/scared.

Thanks for everyone's help to keep this little man alive. He's just being his lil snakey self, but I want to do better for him. I hope you all enjoy these.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smakemom

Smake has demonstrated great fear when exposed to tongs. I don't use them at all with him. I place the rat on a little "rock" dish that is on the hot side so it's not too cold. I've always placed the rat on something flat for him to take at his own pace. Mimicking life has also scared him in the past. I tried feeding him a live mouse in years past but he didn't take it and instead hid from it. He has always had little to no response to food. He has never struck at food and never coiled around food, only slowly taken meals inch by inch down his throat until he's done. It is an extraordinarily slow process for him. He used to stick his head out of his cave or roam around the tank, but that's never been a reliable indicator for me if he was ready to eat or not. I say "used to" because, since moving here, we no longer sleep in the same room, so I don't catch glimpses of him at 2-4am anymore when I wake up at night. I may go downstairs before bed tonight to see if he's up and out, but he generally gets active in the wee hours of morning when us diurnal folk are most quiet.

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Is it possible you put way too much motion into wiggling the prey when trying to feed with tongs? Because that will scare many snakes (especially one that had bad experiences with live prey, maybe even before you got him?) if you don't do it just right. I find it hard to believe he's actually afraid of the tongs- snakes don't tend to notice such things at all. BPs rely on their heat sensing pits, so it's more likely he's afraid of your nearby hand (or specifically the heat signature) that's holding the tongs.

Also (when using tongs) never approach the snake with the prey. Instead make it appear to cluelessly pass by, just out of reach wherever the snake is hiding, & keep the motions very slight & subtle. In the wild, no rodent is going to approach a snake & volunteer to be eaten. ;) Such bold activity does scare some snakes, especially shy BPs.

I checked out this website, but the only vet I was able to track down from the search results is an hour away. That's the closest I could find. Other results were either equally far, farther, or appeared to have stopped practicing/are practicing elsewhere. Are there any other reputable vet finding sites? Thank you still for this resource.

edit: replied without quote. the website was https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Is it possible you put way too much motion into wiggling the prey when trying to feed with tongs? Because that will scare many snakes (especially one that had bad experiences with live prey, maybe even before you got him?) if you don't do it just right. I find it hard to believe he's actually afraid of the tongs- snakes don't tend to notice such things at all. BPs rely on their heat sensing pits, so it's more likely he's afraid of your nearby hand (or specifically the heat signature) that's holding the tongs.

Also (when using tongs) never approach the snake with the prey. Instead make it appear to cluelessly pass by, just out of reach wherever the snake is hiding, & keep the motions very slight & subtle. In the wild, no rodent is going to approach a snake & volunteer to be eaten. ;) Such bold activity does scare some snakes, especially shy BPs.

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I'll try it, but I'm not optimistic. I haven't tried using tongs again in the last couple years since I used to have success without them, but I'll give it another whirl.

Also, when BPs stick their head out of the hide (at night), that's when you should try feeding them: they're ambush hunters, they don't normally pursue the prey, they just grab what goes by from the shadows they're hiding in, so try to imitate that.

A BP that's roaming the tank will NOT be likely to eat- they don't like to eat when out in the open like that, because other predators can easily get them if they're slowed down with their own meal. See?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smakemom

I checked out this website, but the only vet I was able to track down from the search results is an hour away. That's the closest I could find. Other results were either equally far, farther, or appeared to have stopped practicing/are practicing elsewhere. Are there any other reputable vet finding sites? Thank you still for this resource.

edit: replied without quote. the website was https://arav.site-ym.com/search/custom.asp?id=3661.

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An hour trip is worth it for a good vet. For me, that's my daily commute. Hopefully, you won't have to make the trip very often. But I wouldn't rush to the vet right. For the time being, I think your bp needs to be left alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Is it possible you put way too much motion into wiggling the prey when trying to feed with tongs? Because that will scare many snakes (especially one that had bad experiences with live prey, maybe even before you got him?) if you don't do it just right. I find it hard to believe he's actually afraid of the tongs- snakes don't tend to notice such things at all. BPs rely on their heat sensing pits, so it's more likely he's afraid of your nearby hand (or specifically the heat signature) that's holding the tongs.

Also (when using tongs) never approach the snake with the prey. Instead make it appear to cluelessly pass by, just out of reach wherever the snake is hiding, & keep the motions very slight & subtle. In the wild, no rodent is going to approach a snake & volunteer to be eaten. ;) Such bold activity does scare some snakes, especially shy BPs.

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I'm no expert,but I wasgoing to recomend this action as well. Hold the rat around its rear end and simulate it casually walking along easily in front of your snake. Try and make it so your snake can grab it from its head first. I've been doing this with mine since I got him in June and he's pounced on every one. When he grabs it, give a little pull as if the rat is trying to escape.

I feel so badly for all of the stress you've gone through over this and how it has affected the way you feel about your snake and about keeping snakes in general.

What's frustrating is that I just don't think you and your snake needed to be put through all of this with the vet visits, force feeding, etc. I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that all that is needed here is time, patience on your part, and peace and quiet for your snake. Hang in there, TRY not to focus on whether the snake is eating or not, make sure enclosure parameters are correct and that your snake feels safe and secure (snug hides, quiet room, no handling for now), offer a warm meal every 10 days or so, and just wait.

Okay here are two new things. One, I know that with my snake when he was in a tub instead of a glass enclosure he would seem to panic if I didn't check on him every day. I switched him to a glass enclosure because after I didn't check on him for a couple days (2 because then I had to change his water) he got out of his enclosure and I woke up to figure out that he had tried to climb up my (at the time) loft bed but couldn't make it and went underneath my bed to wait. I switched him to a glass front opening enclosure and now he is still very clingy and often comes out to watch me pace in my room (something I do often to stim). So maybe Smake is the same way and not being in a room with you is messing with him? As if it's something he isn't used to. Another thing, could the fact that he doesn't have his branch anymore be bothering him? Like a lack of enrichment for him to explore? Bp's are semiarboreal and some enjoy climbing more than others, my snake is one of them and from the picture I think Smake is as well. I would say if you aren't sure if not being in the same room as you is bothering him then at least give him his branch to see if it makes a difference at all.

@smakemom

https://youtu.be/KsNYMIlKadc?si=bhnf3cNK31FqlFea

This video might help you! This guy is also pretty funny and goofy. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeansTheDerp

@smakemom

https://youtu.be/KsNYMIlKadc?si=bhnf3cNK31FqlFea

This video might help you! This guy is also pretty funny and goofy. :D

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Yeah, I don't think we have to worry about BPs "eating villagers"- :rofl:I've never heard of putting a drop of vanilla on a rodent's head to promote feeding-:confusd: Likewise for "ASF cologne"-:D

Yes I love Bob's "brother" Kent, he makes me think of a lot of people I've met... Or at least some of them. As far as the scenting thing I haven't heard of the vanilla thing either but I have heard of the ASF juice.

At least ASF juice makes sense. Using vanilla? Not so much... I also have a hard time believing that taking a shy & easily-stressed snake for a "ride in the car" could possibly do anything to inspire their appetite, but I've heard that more than once, so who knows? It's not the first thing I'd try, I'll say that.

Vanilla is one of those old-school myths you still hear now and then.

I'm not a huge fan of Bob's videos. He seems like a nice guy; he's funny; but he hasn't kept snakes for all that long. He's entertaining but I wouldn't take husbandry advice from him.

Reptilinks sells ASF juice for scenting as well as frog juice for scenting for reptiles that eat amphibians, and some other scenting juices. I'm still not sure what the fascination is with ASF as feeders for Royal pythons - ASF aren't really a common native rodent in their habitat. But the various scenting juices can be helpful for specific reptiles. I'm not at all convinced of their utility for Royal pythons, as feeding refusal with Royals is husbandry-related most of the time, and not related to improper diet or the need to tempt them with other scents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caitlin

Vanilla is one of those old-school myths you still hear now and then.

I'm not a huge fan of Bob's videos. He seems like a nice guy; he's funny; but he hasn't kept snakes for all that long. He's entertaining but I wouldn't take husbandry advice from him.

Reptilinks sells ASF juice for scenting as well as frog juice for scenting for reptiles that eat amphibians, and some other scenting juices. I'm still not sure what the fascination is with ASF as feeders for Royal pythons - ASF aren't really a common native rodent in their habitat. But the various scenting juices can be helpful for specific reptiles. I'm not at all convinced of their utility for Royal pythons, as feeding refusal with Royals is husbandry-related most of the time, and not related to improper diet or the need to tempt them with other scents.

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I'm happy to see your input on this, & agree with your assessment of him- I don't watch many videos on snake-keeping (nor do I have the time), but this one is beginner-oriented with some humor that's probably better omitted so as not to confuse anyone.

In my experience, switching rodents or "scenting" is as likely to work as it is to backfire & appear to make the snake more fussy. It's a gamble at best, & last resort after husbandry issues have been fully addressed. So as not to stress the snake, it's best to try as few things as possible to get it feeding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smakemom

when he ate at the breeder's, it was about two years ago, and he was kept in a rack and fed a live rat.

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Some snakes just do a lot better in tubs, or at least not in glass enclosures (where it is cold, bright, dry, and every predator in the neighborhood is looking in all the time). This shouldn't be surprising. PVC enclosures might be a good alternative for those snakes, in regards to the apparent feelings of security and ease of keeping the environment stable.

Some snakes don't take well to FT prey. Again, this shouldn't be surprising as they look, smell, feel and taste different than something fresh (first hand knowledge not available on that last point ;) ). For them, trying prekilled live feeders might be a good option -- buy a live prey item, and then dispatch it immediately before offering it. I have a couple snakes (not BPs) that prefer prekilled prey at least sometimes (when they get fussy for a stretch of time).

It could be that the vanilla scent mentioned above helps to hide the natural scent of the prey item, often in an attempt to get a snake to recognize a non-natural prey item as food (as when convincing a lizard-eating species to eat rodents). It isn't apparent that this is relevant in this situation.

Once a vet has established that there's no apparent health issues, I'd not get a vet involved unless the situation changes in some relevant way.

Right now, I'm going with the "leave him alone" strategy. No handling, no disturbances, only refilling his water dish. I'll offer food every few weeks, trying the suggested methods. I'd prefer to leave pre-killed as a last ditch effort, but I'll keep in in mind just in case. I thought about ASF juice but it's just so expensive and not a sure thing so I'm not keen on that method yet either. I'll keep y'all posted, as always.

Attempted a feeding tonight, but the conditions weren't great and I may have been too aggressive with my approach. I did quite a few things wrong, but I'm not used to actively feeding him (he usually takes things on his own overnight) so that's going to happen.

But it's not all bad news. When I was dangling the rat, he showed interest and got close to it to smell it and figure it out. But since he was exposed and outside of his cave, I think he decided against going after it.

Next time, I'll be more thoughtful. I know better so idk why I rushed it. Frustrated with myself. I'll keep an eye out for when he's poking his head out of his cave and try again then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smakemom

Attempted a feeding tonight, but the conditions weren't great and I may have been too aggressive with my approach. I did quite a few things wrong, but I'm not used to actively feeding him (he usually takes things on his own overnight) so that's going to happen.

But it's not all bad news. When I was dangling the rat, he showed interest and got close to it to smell it and figure it out. But since he was exposed and outside of his cave, I think he decided against going after it.

Next time, I'll be more thoughtful. I know better so idk why I rushed it. Frustrated with myself. I'll keep an eye out for when he's poking his head out of his cave and try again then.

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You'll get there. Anytime I offer a snake food & they don't take it as expected, I usually leave it for a while (overnight is just fine- unless they're in blue- then it's generally hopeless) & hopefully yours will take it later. Hey, we ALL had to learn how to get our snakes to eat- mistakes happen- & to make matters worse, they're not all the same, trust me. ;) Hang in there.

I would've left it, but I accidentally impaled it with my tongs, so it got pitched. ooey gooey rat mess is a no from me AND smake...

I get that, I wouldn't want that sitting in my snake's enclosure either because of the smell... Sometimes it does attract the snakes though. Though my snake doesn't like messes even if its his mess.